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Speed,Combat,Scale,Racing => Carrier => Topic started by: Bob Reeves on October 06, 2009, 07:56:24 AM
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This project started with idea of playing with a carrier airplane and evolved to the FJ-4 I'm presently building. Wanting something easy to build as I have other projects I need to be doing I decided to use a combat foam wing in a profile with all the controls external. Thinking having the controls external would be a good thing as this is the first 3 line setup I've ever messed with.
First picture is getting ready to cut the root to create a swept wing out of a straight trailing edge combat wing. I used the 3 view drawing of an FJ-4 and cut the wing to the same angle of the trailing edge. This makes the leading edge have less sweep than the real thing but for this it doesn't really matter.
After making the cut and test fitting the two wing halves together it was obvious I not only had a pretty short wing but I would need to do something to get the wing tips back to 90 degrees. I used the foam pieces I cut out of the root with the leading edge cut off gluing them to the wing tips. The rear half of the airfoil matched and figured I could sand the leading edge in. See 2nd picture. After the glue dried I cut and sanded the leading edges of the new wing tips to match the wings and ended up with what you see in the last photo.
This being a carrier airplane and needing to be pretty tough I plan to sheet the wing using Tom Dixon's kept foam method. I'll mold the leading edge caps, sheet the center secton, sheet the trailing edge and put cap strips between the leading edge sheeting and the trailing edge. I'll update this thread as I go and hopfully end up with something I can play carrier with.
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That looks great. Keep us up to date. Have my Skyray almost done. DOC Holliday
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Interesting projects.
Here's a question:
On these propellor-driven jet projects, just how much distortion can you get away with and still get the 10-point bonus?
I like the A-4 Skyhawk, but if you built one "true scale" it wouldn't fly very will at all. By the time you got that little bitty low aspect wing up to 300 squares, the fuselage would be as big as a barn.
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Paul,
For profile class only it's a pretty loose inturpretation. Lots of wiggle room. The rules say something like- If the outlines of the major components closely resemble the actual airplane shown in the 3 view, (judges guide, the model should be identifiable with the full scale aircraft shown in the 3 view).
In my experience it can be a pretty wide margin. For instance I have seen a Crusader that did not have as swept back a wing as the real thing and in another case a Corsair that had a significantly longer fuselage. The overall appearance still looked like the real airplane but some scale factors were fudged. It is up to the event chairman but I have never really seen someone not get the points if most people would say "Yes, that looks kind of like a *******).
Class I and II have to be within 5% of the 3 view proportions.
Bob
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The thing we look for in processing is the outline of the profile. Especially the front view. If there is no dehidral or anhidral on the model to match the 3 views, no points. The landing gear can be on the fuselage also on the designs that have wing mounted gear. DOC Holliday
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Scared me for a second, thought I was going to need to run the wings back through the saw to put in a little dihedral.
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Haven't received the plans yet but am sure the FM airplane has a built up wing. The foam wing came about because I had the wing. It's for a Yankee Nipper speed limit combat airplane by Joe Just, was about to give it away when this idea popped into my head.
The Nipper uses dry wall tape and spruce spars with low heat covering applied direct to the foam. I was given a roll of grey Monokote (thanks Lee) which can't be put directly on foam so figured I'd do the Dixon thing so I could use it. My plan is to use hard balsa spars instead of spruce and reinforce with carbon fiber between the spar and leading edge sheeting. This will be top and bottom of wing so should make it pretty strong..
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I think that maybe the 3views were required when Navy personnel were used as judges. They weren't airplane nuts like we are and may not have been familiar with the aircraft we were attempting to model so needed a reference. I can't for the life of me figure out how a judge can use a little 3view to determine if a model is with in a 5 percent tolerance in class I&II, I know I can't.
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Rick, thanks for the clearification. Jim's work and my own sometimes get mixed up. Jim continues his ways with he "Nipper' and I currently am working on two sizes of a Carrier Trainer for those that lay in the hinterlands of moldeling without any carrier help, or carrier contests. Ergo, the Postal Carrier contest held in 09 and continuing in 2010. I have sent out 4 of the ARF/ARC kits to clubs at no cost. Interest in the PCC continues to grow. Perhaps even as an after hours event at Brodaks this coming June. Time will tell on that.
Here are two pictures of the .25 size "Penguin" Carrier Trainer that comes with 3-line bell crank and 3-line handle included. Also attached are the 2010 PCC rules
Joe
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As much as I hated to do it I cut another set of Nipper wings right behind the spars to make mold bucks for my leading edge sheeting. Epoxied to 1 by 2 for stiffness and a handle, will add more pictures tomorrow.
First photo is the mold bucks and leading edge sheeting ready to mold. 2nd photo is both wings test fitting the pieces left over from the leading edge sheeting on the trailing edge. Wanted to see if it was feasible to use these pieces with the taper cut on the trailing edge. Should work out fine...
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Mold bucks with leading edge sheeting in place all wrapped up with strips from an old bed sheet. 2nd photo is the first leading edge glued to the wing core and placed in the cradles for clamping till the glue dries. Waiting wing shows the 1/4 X 1/8 balsa spar. 3rd photo is the first wing half out of the cradles and 2nd one waiting to dry.
I installed the leading edge sheeting using Gorilla glue, ran small beads on the foam in 4 places on each side then used a piece of scrap balsa as a squeegee to scrape and spread it to a very thin layer, scraping as much off as I could. I misted the inside of the sheeting with water then used a paper towel to make sure it wasn't too wet. From inspecting the first core out of the clamp it worked very well and didn't add allot of weight.
Will probably use epoxy to install the trailing edge pieces and foam friendly CA to install the cap strips. Kinda using it as a test bed for when I sheet my next foam wing.
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Would the guys that posted stuff in this thread that has nothing to do with building the airplane mind if I asked the moderator to delete them? We can discuss carrier rules in another thread if you want..
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Sure, go ahead.
Joe
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Would the guys that posted stuff in this thread that has nothing to do with building the airplane mind if I asked the moderator to delete them? We can discuss carrier rules in another thread if you want..
Not a problem
Wayne
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Back to the task at hand. Drew my wing in AutoCAD and came up with what I think will be the CG assuming 20%. Maybe I shouldn't have put in such a dramatic sweep. Came up with the sweep by measuring the trailing edge angle of the real FJ and set the trailing edge of my foam wing the same. If I had done the leading edge it would have been even a greater sweep.
Only issues I see now are it's 479 sq/in (maybe a little big for a carrier airplane) and the leadouts will be 4+ inches in front of the tip leading edge.
I could take some off the tips to make the wing smaller but then the CG would also move forward and I'm not sure it would help very much with the position of the leadouts relative to the wing tip.. Going to be interesting trying to figure out a way to support the leadouts at the wing tip when they need to be hanging out in the air 4 inches in front of the LE.
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Bob,
I think a carbon tube, maybe a quarter inch diameter, maybe little less, buried in the tip of the wing with 4 inches protruding forward of the LE would work to support that forward leadout. It would look like a long pitot tube. Just don't land on it!
We cover foam wings with silkspan, applied wet, then a coat of Titebond glue thinned 50/50 with water. It shrinks very nicely and you can apply film covering onto that, Monocote may require too much heat, but coverrite or ultracote use less heat. Kelly Hite used monokote, I think, and he was just very careful with he heat gun/iron. Hope this idn't a drift from the thread......dg
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Thanks Dale and no the stuff you posted is perfect.. Carbon tube is a great idea as I slap myself and say why didn't I think of that. I even have the tube in the form of a mish mash of used arrow shafts I bought for almost nothing.
Trying to remember where the in-flight refueling tube is on the FJ, pretty sure it's not on a wing tip ;D
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Now that the T-Rex ARF is finished, back to the FJ.. Thinking about how to do the leadouts led me to the idea of making them adjustable which in turn led to what is probably the worlds most complex adjustable leadout guide.
First photo is all the parts that make up a clamp for the carbon fiber tube. The actual clamp pieces are made from some of the hardest balsa I've ever seen. The grove was cut on my mill with a round nose 1/4 inch end mill and a small piece of aluminum was epoxied to the clamp side to distribute the force of the two 2-56 clamp screws and give the screws a surface they wouldn't dig into. The 1/4 inch carbon arrow shaft was drilled for small eyelets and a plug was made from hard balsa. During final detailing I will turn the plug on my lathe to look like an in flight refueling connector.
2nd photo is the assembly all glued up and ready to be installed in the wing tip. Next is the test fit in a 1/2 inch contest balsa wing tip that was rough cut to the wing outline and placed in the mill to cut the clearance grove for the carbon tube. All glued up and ready to be installed on the wing.
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This is the wing with both tips on waiting for the glue to dry before shaping. I had a thin wall carbon arrow shaft that the 1/4 inch tube would just fit inside of. I cut a short piece off and embedded it in the leading edge of the tip to give me a clean hard hole for the leadout. when the tip gets shaped the carbon tube will get sanded to conform to the tip shape and and voids between it and the rough hole in the tip will be filled. I also cut a couple small pieces for the bottom where the clamp screws are located. You can see the bottom tubes in the photo above.
Wing halves are almost ready to join, once I get the wing tips shaped and make a decision about flaps (or not) it will be ready to become one piece. I originally wasn't going to put any dihedral in the wing but after some thought decided it needed it for a couple reasons. First it will put the leadouts closer to the vertical CG but more important (in this case) it will give me clearance for the leadouts. As you can see from the above drawing the CG and bellcrank location is going to be above and about 7 inches behind the root leading edge. Without dihedral I would have had to place the leadout guide on top of the wing instead of being able to locate it in the center of the tip airfoil.
To cut the wing root for dihedral I carefully blocked and squared the wing halves on my radial arm saw and took one thin cut from each wing. If my calculations are correct it should have the same amount as the real thing. When I put the two halves together I plan on using the thin wall carbon arrow shaft for a joiner spar. Still working/thinking on how to drill/melt accurate holes in the foam for the arrow shaft joiners...
To be continued....
Oh! the adjustable leadouts with the tip weigh 1/2 ounce and the whole wing as it sits in the photo is 7 ounces. I don't think that's too bad for a wing as strong as this one is.
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Bob,
You truely are a MASTER modeller. Love your stuff man.
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Bob,
You truely are a MASTER modeller. Love your stuff man.
Thanks but Naw.... I don't hold a candle to some of the other stuff I've seen posted. I do really enjoy tinkering and can sometimes take an idea and make it a reality.
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Still working/thinking on how to drill/melt accurate holes in the foam for the arrow shaft joiners...
Don't drill OR melt the hole. put some balsa plugs in the end of the carbon tube and put them in a pencil sharpner. Locate a point on both wings with a marker. Put the wings in their cradles and place a small level on the tube and push the tube into the core watching the level to keep as straight as possible.. do each side and check for alignment before you glue tube in place with Poly-glue. It's crude but I've done it several times with success.
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Figured out a jig to put the holes in the wing for the carbon tubes that will hopfully hold them together. With the help of a framing square, an aluminum block and an aluminum tube that was close to the right OD I drilled them in with the aluminum tube. I drilled a hole on the block at the right height and made sure it was square to the sided.
Set everything up with the square parallel to the ring root and used it as a guide to be sure the holes were 90 deg to the root. I sharpened the aluminum tubing and filed serrations in the end so it would cut the foam (more or less). Then just rotated the tubing by hand as I pushed on the block. Worked great...
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Starting to look like an FJ-4 sorta.. It's much bigger than carrier airplanes are normally but that's what happens when a stunt guy designs a carrier airplane. The rules still give a displacement advantage to 4 strokes :) this thing just might end up with a Saito 56 on the nose.
Well choot.. Something just wasn't looking right so I went back over my drawings and discovered when I plotted the canopy I was using a 3 view of an FJ-3. Not really a big deal as the FJ-4 canopy is smaller and I have enough wood in the fuselage. Just have to plot all the points again which is a real pain...
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Its really shaping up, nice work! Any ideas on the paint job?
thanks
Wayne
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Looks great Bob! What did you use to cover the open bays? silkspan/ dope?
I have a .15 Profile Carrier Corsair (Sportsman .15?) about 3/4 done, converted from Stunt plans.
I wish I had your free time :'(
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Its really shaping up, nice work! Any ideas on the paint job?
thanks
Wayne
Thanks Wayne,
Plan on drab NAVY grey just like the ones we had in the squdron. I posted a photo I found on the internet in this thread. http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=14328.0
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Looks great Bob! What did you use to cover the open bays? silkspan/ dope?
I have a .15 Profile Carrier Corsair (Sportsman .15?) about 3/4 done, converted from Stunt plans.
I wish I had your free time :'(
Cool that will make 5 of us that have carrier airplanes.. Lee gave me a roll of grey Monokote I was planning on using on the wings but that might change to SLC painted with Brodak dope. Will have to wait and see what mood I'm in when I get to the finish.
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Now it looks more like an FJ-4 instead of a 3.. Next comes the fun parts, sanding, shaping, adding a few scale details and controls.. I may be busy for a while...
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I ike the choice on the paint scheme, ala "Spad" 1965. Looking forward to seeing it done.
Thanks
Wayne
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FJ-1 eye candy
Tom Wilk
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Actually that's an FJ-4, the only one in existence that is still flying. While researching I ran across it and the history. It was one of the FJ's that I prepared for departure when VA-216 was trading out it's FJ's for A4's. It went to the Reserves and then to private ownership. I just wished they had decide to restore it to the Black Diamond dress but the Reserves dress is more flamboyant.
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a few shots of a straight wing FJ-? from my archives
Tom Wilk
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I found another paint scheme
Tom Wilk
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Well choot, this morning I went for it and cut flaps out of the wings. Thought I had the whole ordeal documented but discovered I forgot to format the new memory card for the camera :( I'll format the card and maybe get a few pictures in the morning.
Sure would have been a whole lot easier if I had decided to do it before I sheeted the wing. One item that was bugging me was installing a control horn when not only is it a radical sweep but it also has dihedral. Made lucky boxes for the stab which worked out well, hoping they will work on the wing as well. We will see...
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Hi Ty,
Thanks but am going to paint it just like the ones I worked on, Black Diamond dress. Not real flamboyant but that's OK it brings back long forgotten memories.
Ordered Tom's carrier CD and got a few more ideas from looking over the plans. The Z spring is a wonderful idea, can't believe I didn't think of that one. Also decided to add an outboard aileron in case I need a little help keeping the lines tight.. Good stuff, must have for anyone interested in carrier.
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Well choot, this morning I went for it and cut flaps out of the wings. Thought I had the whole ordeal documented but discovered I forgot to format the new memory card for the camera :( I'll format the card and maybe get a few pictures in the morning.
Sure would have been a whole lot easier if I had decided to do it before I sheeted the wing. One item that was bugging me was installing a control horn when not only is it a radical sweep but it also has dihedral. Made lucky boxes for the stab which worked out well, hoping they will work on the wing as well. We will see...
Bob, are using the flaps like a stunt plane or like a carrier. If you could find an old Sterling Gaurdian kit and see how it is done on the kit. Bill Johnson did his different than Sterling. I know I had the flaps go full down as far as they would go for slow speed. A rod from the throttle rod controlled the release of every thing. Have fun, DOC Holliday
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Just discovered this thread Bob, way cool idea! y1
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Bob, are using the flaps like a stunt plane or like a carrier. If you could find an old Sterling Gaurdian kit and see how it is done on the kit. Bill Johnson did his different than Sterling. I know I had the flaps go full down as far as they would go for slow speed. A rod from the throttle rod controlled the release of every thing. Have fun, DOC Holliday
Haven't committed yet.. At this point I can go either way, just drop the flaps or connect them to the elevator. Leaning towards just dropping them now that I added an aileron. This thing is almost constantly changing as I learn more about carrier and try to build in flexibility in case something doesn't quite work out.
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Back to the FJ...
Decided to add flaps and an aileron with the flaps connected to the hook rather than the elevator. This allowed me to add an aileron to the outboard wing that hopfully will help with low speed line tension. Cutting flaps out of a sheeted foam wing was a bit of a challenge but we gotter done.
First I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to cut straight down through the wing with any accuracy so I made a cardboard templet, (1st photo) cut one side to the template, then moved the template to cut the other side. This insured the sheeting was cut exactly the same on both sides of the wing then it was a simple matter of cutting the foam between the sheeting to release the flaps.
Once I had the flaps cut I needed to install a balsa insert under the sheeting on the trailing edge. Bent a piece of 18ga copper wire and used my Weller gun as a heat source to cut out a 1/4 inch deep channel in the trailing edge foam. The wire was bent with a step so I could use the sheeting as a depth guide. Photo #2 and a little bit more on this in the next post.
I then cut and glued in strips of 1/4 inch balsa using Gorilla glue. Last photo shows the inserts being weighted down and while waiting for the glue to dry I cut 1/4 inch off the leading edge of the flaps and prepaired cap strips also out of 1/4 inch balsa. The cap strips were then glued to the leading edge of the flaps, sanded flush and relieved for hinges.
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First couple of photos shows the operation on the trailing edge better than the above photos. I was using a new camera and didn't have the white balance set right when I did the flaps. I cut an aileron out of the outboard wing and basically did the same as I did with the flaps. Inserting a 1/4 inch balsa strip in the trailing edge and adding a 1/4 inch to the leading edge of the aileron. The ends of the cutout and flaps were simply caped with 1/16 balsa to cover the foam.
Last photo is the wing getting trial fitted with landing gear and prepairing the flap to aileron linkage. I neglected to photo document the landing gear block installation so will try to explain how I did it. I used a full 6 inch SIG 5/32 landing gear block with a square piece of hardwood epoxied to the center. The holes for the gear tangs were drilled up through the hardwood block. The upright block goes all the way through the wing and is keyed into the fuselage. You can see the cutout in the fuselage that will support the block. I also buried 1/8 plywood supports on the outside edges into the wings which are also drilled for the carbon fiber tube wing joiner. I might make a drawing if I get time, would be a whole lot easier to visualize with a drawing.
The plans under the FJ are for the A4 that I decided not to build, the border is a straight line so I decided to use it for a reference to determin the landing gear position and wire lengths. I lined the fuselage up with my reference line allowing clearance for an 11 inch prop. Pined a 2 1/4 inch wheel at the proper location on a 15 deg line behind the CG. I also pinned a 2 inch nose wheel at the proper location. This gave me the info I needed to bend the landing gear wires.
I'm still mulling over a couple options for mounting the nose gear depending on if I make it removable or not. When I make the decision I'll bend the nose gear wire. The main gear is 5/32 but the nose gear will probably be 1/8. The two carbon tubes at the rear of the fuselage is what I'm considering making the tail hook out of. The real FJ has a double rod tail hook connected to each side of the fuselage. Using carbon rods would allow me to more or less duplicate the real thing plus I would be able to paint them with stripes just like a real FJ. Still thinking about this one...
Have to run, have a friend comming over to help me with my roofing project. Will be back when I get the new roof on the house done.
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This is going to be awesome when it gets done. Don't know about carbon tubes or even rods for a hook tho.
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This is going to be awesome when it gets done. Don't know about carbon tubes or even rods for a hook tho.
Thanks Doc, Ya, I had the same doubts about carbon tubes for the tail hook but am thinking of ways to make it work. I can machine a couple inserts for the pivot end and thinking of drilling through the CF and insert so I can install a pin. Between the pin and JB weld I think it would hold. Then I would need to form a wire hook that would insert into the hook end of the CF tubes. What I'm not sure of is if a JB welded wire insert would be strong enough. I would of course put an aluminum sleeve over the ends of the CF tubes to prevent splitting from side loads and making the inserts pretty long. I'm thinking it would hold up but probably won't know for sure till I do it.
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Thanks Doc, Ya, I had the same doubts about carbon tubes for the tail hook but am thinking of ways to make it work. I can machine a couple inserts for the pivot end and thinking of drilling through the CF and insert so I can install a pin. Between the pin and JB weld I think it would hold. Then I would need to form a wire hook that would insert into the hook end of the CF tubes. What I'm not sure of is if a JB welded wire insert would be strong enough. I would of course put an aluminum sleeve over the ends of the CF tubes to prevent splitting from side loads and making the inserts pretty long. I'm thinking it would hold up but probably won't know for sure till I do it.
Bob I once used JB weld to rejoin a tierod sleeve on a 69 Ford LTD. I drove that beast for a year with that JB weld tie rod. I always laugh when people question the strength of properly applied JB weld. I have no doubt anything you engineer will hold up.
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Thanks Rick, only problem is making the tail hook will be a project in itself but I'm kinda getting known for making projects out of things that are usually pretty simple HB~>
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As I said I seem to make a project out of everything...
First photo is all the parts for the tail hook, a normal person would have just bent a piece of wire but noooo I have to have a tail hook that is made up out of 12 parts. After masking and painted the carbon rods it's all ready to be JB welded together. I will embed a hardwood block in the bottom of the fuselage to hold it, will be removable in case it doesn't hold up.
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Speaking of projects, the aileron linkage installation and hatch ended up being 12 pieces of balsa and one piece of plywood. I wanted to be able to adjust the throw of the aileron, used a servo arm left over from my RC days, drilled the center out for an aluminum bushing and mounted it to a piece of lite ply. The cover is hard 1/16. Will cover it with whatever I cover the wing with and just tape it in place.
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As I said I seem to make a project out of everything...
First photo is all the parts for the tail hook, a normal person would have just bent a piece of wire but noooo I have to have a tail hook that is made up out of 12 parts. After masking and painted the carbon rods it's all ready to be JB welded together. I will embed a hardwood block in the bottom of the fuselage to hold it, will be removable in case it doesn't hold up.
Freaking WAAAAY KEWL!
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OK Bob, if your gonna paint safety stripes on your tailhook, we expect a all-out paint job including your name/ rank under the canopy.
-your fellow Gluedobber ;D
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OK Bob, you have really raised the bar now. Congratulations, its looking real good.
Thanks
Wayne
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After installing the tail hook support I needed to cut channels into the fuselage rear to clear the carbon rods when it is in the up position. A mini mill is real handy when you need to do something like this. I cut a couple pieces of 1/2 inch scrap balsa to the proper angle and used a round nose end mill to cut the channels. second photo is test fitting the tail hook..
Fuselage sides are going to get sheeted with 1/8 balsa, I will blend everything in and fill in the voids during final sanding/filling. Reason I'm going to add the 1/8th is to simulate the FJ-4's razorback plus it will hide the landing gear block that sticks up through the wing into the fuselage.
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No Pictures today as I'm just doing allot of sanding.. Just for grins wanted to get a rough idea of how the CG was doing, stuck everything together this morning with a 10 ounce chunk of lead in the nose to simulate the engine.. Had to add 3 ounces to the tail to get it to my 20% mark. Most of the weight of the finish will be behind the CG but am adding a tail weight box just in case.
Going to be heavy, already at 36 ounces with allot of epoxy and paint to go, it may need the flaps just to get airborne.
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Bob, you are making that project look great.
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Finlay got all the mill work and shaping done on the fuselage, installed the 1/8 balsa sides and belcrank mount. Now I can get back to building. This morning I installed the fuselage on the wing and epoxied the stab on.
Put the wing back in the cradles to be sure it was aligned 0-0 with the building table. Slid the fuselage on and just before it was in the proper location I ran a bead of Gorilla glue down the top center of the wing. With the dihedral the very center of the wing is lower than the points it contacts the fuselage sides. The foaming action of Gorilla glue will hopfully fill in where it would be otherwise impossible to get epoxy to contact both surfaces. Once I was sure the fuselage was centered and square I hit a few tight fitting places with CA to be sure it didn't move while the Gorilla glue cured.
Knowing the wing was 0-0 with the bench made it fairly easy to get the stab aligned 0-0. Just stacked up stuff on both sides till I had it level and at the proper height to glue to the fuselage.
BTW: The weights on top of the wing are rectangular cardboard tubes filled with lead shot. The tubes were packing in some stuff I received and with hardwood ends epoxied on made great building weights. Wished I could find a few more.
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From the above photo one can see it's a long way from the bellcrank to the engine, not only are they are on opposite sides of the fuselage the bellcrank is near the top and the carb control arm is near the bottom. From what I could find the normal solution is a transfer link through the fuselage which would take care of the opposite side issue but still leave pushrods bent at ugly angles and I would have a big issue of trying to work around the the fuel tank.
Decided the best solution was a vertical transfer rod with control arms on each side of the fuselage. Decided to use 1/16 music wire for the rod supported by a section of brass tubing. For the control horns I chucked 1/16 wheel collars in my lathe and cut a shoulder on one end. I then made and drilled brass arms to fit the shoulder and soldered them to the wheel collars. The shoulder provides more surface area for a solder joint and made alignment easier.
Next problem was how to accurately drill a hole midway and 4 inches deep into the front of the fuselage. I made a drill guide using a 1/2 inch piece of balsa scrap with a brass tubing insert about 2 inches long. The balsa was drilled accurately at the proper height on my mill then the brass tubing inserted with CA glue. I laid the fuselage on the bench and weighed it down so it wouldn't move, aligned my drill guide and weighed it down. Then simply used a battery drill with a long bit to drill the hole.
Actually before I drilled the hole for the brass tubing bearing I clamped the fuselage in my mill and made the cutouts for the control horns. After the hole was drilled I inserted and epoxied a brass tubing bearing into the hole between the cutouts.
First photo shows the control horn that will be connected to the bellcrank, second photo shows the control horn that will be connected to the engine. You can see the long piece of 1/16 music wire the control arms are temporarily attached to sticking out the bottom. I have cut a piece of music wire the proper length that will be used in the final assembly. Will probably leave the hole in the fuselage bottom open in case I ever need to remove the control horns. Last photo is a close up of the top control horn.
A Few additional notes....
The 4 slots through the fuselage are for wireties that will be used to hold the fuel tank on. I started using this method of mounting fuel tanks on profiles several airplanes ago and it has worked out so well I will continue to use it for any future profile builds. It allows mounting any kind of fuel tank on either side of the fuselage and the height is adjustable by simply putting balsa shims on the top or bottom of the tank.
I will be using 1/8 aluminum pads to mount the engine. The light ply doublers are cut out so the aluminum pads will sit directly on the hard wood motor mounts. The aluminum pads are pre-drilled for the blind nuts already installed and will be drilled for the engine. Engine is mounted with counter sunk 4-40 screws from the back side of the pads and held down with lock nuts. Again one of my standard profile engine mounting systems. Mainly it allows changing engines by simply drilling a new set of pads for whatever engine one wants to install.
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Beautiful work Bob!
If you radius the inbd. tank mount holes on the one edge the Ty-wraps will lie flat against the fuse. Your universal mount pads are a great idea.
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Today was rudder day and of course I had to make it harder than just gluing the darn thing on. Sat the rudder on for a test fit and started thinking, that's an awful large rudder and if this thing ever ends up on it's back that rudder ain't gonna survive. First I thought about sheeting it with 1/64 ply but that wouldn't help keep it attached to the fuselage.
I hadn't rounded off the leading edge yet so started thinking about putting a carbon tube on the leading edge. I could drill into the fuselage and let the carbon tube help support the rudder. Happen to have a carbon tube that was the same thickness (3/16) as the rudder and then discovered I had a 3/16 round Dremel bur. I set up my Dremel router table to cut a 3/16 channel in the leading edge of the rudder to accept the carbon tube. Easy enough, then drilled a hole in the fuselage at the proper angle.
The photo is a test fit of all the rudder pieces, which are now epoxied together and curing. The carbon tube is buried approximately two inches down into the fuselage. Thinking it's going to take a pretty healthy hit to break this rudder off...
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Almost ready to start the finish. fillets are done and all controls except for the engine side of the throttle arm have been finished. The engine side photo is showing my temporary throttle link to see how the range of movement worked out. Have a couple questions but think I'll start another thread as they are generic and can apply to any 3 wire control.
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Looks like you got the nose gear sorted out too. Removeable?
What are you using for the fillets? Any special tools for sanding the radius? (radius scraper?)
Looking forward to see how your going to do the markings.
Looks great!
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Looks like you got the nose gear sorted out too. Removeable?
What are you using for the fillets? Any special tools for sanding the radius? (radius scraper?)
Looking forward to see how your going to do the markings.
Looks great!
Looks like Super Fil on the fillets.
Looking great Bob. See you this weekend. I'm bringing my perry carb equipped TT 36
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Looks like you got the nose gear sorted out too. Removeable?
What are you using for the fillets? Any special tools for sanding the radius? (radius scraper?)
Looking forward to see how your going to do the markings.
Looks great!
Rick is correct the fillets are Superfill, available from Brodak in reasonable quantities. This is the first time I've used the stuff and think I like the old Epoxolight better. This doesn't seem to smooth out as well with the old finger/water trick but it might just be needing to learn it's quirks. Really curious as to it's sandability and strength. The wing fillet on a profile (in my book) is a structural load bearing surface and needs to be strong.
As it sits no sanding has been done on the fillets, the process of putting down fillets can take an hour Windy tape to fully explain, am sure there are several posts on it in the archives. I didn't do a detailed post on fillets as I thought I would just be repeating stuff that has already been posted.
Yep, nose wheel is removable, next time I have it upside down I'll try to remember to get a picture of how I did it. Not allot different than what you suggested.. A short landing gear block epoxied to the bottom of the motor mount with 2-56 blind nuts for hold down screws. The cover includes metal straps that actually secure the wire with four screws. It's a tad too long for good trike ground handling and will either have to bend another or get creative with the little Z bend I started.
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Spent the day just finishing up a few details on the control system and making sure everything fits. Weighed it after I got everything together for what I hope is the last time before final assembly. 43 ounces without finish, tip weight or tail weight. I knew it was going to be heavy just wasn't sure how heavy.. Probably end up at around 48 ounces RTF, maybe closer to 50. No way is this thing going to be competitive but should be an attention getter, twice as big as any carrier airplane I ever heard of and with the weight to match it's size. That poor little Thunder Tiger has it's work cut out.
What I'm wondering is what will happen the first time I drop the hook and the flaps drop, the outboard aleron moves up and the rudder kicks out. Guess as long as it doesn't go into a flat spin I'll call it a sucess.. more or less..
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You are going to hold your breath!
Wayne
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Went over to Bob's today to set up the Perry carb on my TT 36. It's was a piece of cake. While I was there I took a photo of his way kewl ultra Hi-zoot carrier plane next to the simple little Brodak Bearcat that John Ashford built so you could get a sense of how big this plane is going to be, these planes are going to be using the same size motor. It'll be interesting to see the difference in speeds. While the Bearcat may be faster I'm betting Bob will be able to fly really slow with his plane.
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What props are you going to run with these .36 TT's? Since they're not Stunters, would you load the engine with a high pitch prop or bigger dia.?
Catdaddy: Bearcats look good with the post-war Reserve markings, good contrast- Orange/ Sea Blue.
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Good question, the recommended carrier prop for the TT 36 is an APC 9-6. Because the FJ is so big (never let a stunt guy design a carrier airplane) I might try a 10-6.. If I end up with a Saito 56 on the nose I will try something like a 10-8 or 10-9..
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Today the finishing process started, Covered everything but the fuselage with SLC covering from the Core House. Will put carbon Vail on the fuselage and rudder. Finish is going to be Brodak dope over SLC and carbon. This is the first time I've painted SLC directly, before I covered it with a layer of silkspan. Decided to do away with the silkspan and hopfully save a couple ounces. More details and photos probably tomorrow...
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Is Dope compatible with that SLC? (dope solvents)
Are you guys gonna run tuned exhausts on your TT 36's?
I'm down to engine fit and fuel sys., then finish...Lee needs to catch up! mw~
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Is Dope compatible with that SLC? (dope solvents)
Are you guys gonna run tuned exhausts on your TT 36's?
I'm down to engine fit and fuel sys., then finish...Lee needs to catch up! mw~
Supose to be compatible with any thing we use on models, when I put silkspan over it I use Brodak Butrate.
We put a MACS pipe on a TT on the test stand and it lost RPM, besides I don't think pipes are legal.
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Well the finish starts...
First I covered everything except the fuselage and Rudder with SLC from the Core House. Have a problem with SLC trying to go around compound curves, when I try the heat and stretch trick I tear it and it doesn't shrink enough to take up all the wrinkles. My solution (like on the wing tips) is to just do the best I can then cut the wrinkles off with a razor blade. I then put a coat of Z-Poxy finishing resin on the edges and over any bare wood. Before it sets up I wipe it with a paper towel to get rid of any excess. When it cures it will get lightly sanded then sprayed with Duplicator sandable primer. This will hide the edges and fill the grain of the balsa. I wouldn't do a large area like this as epoxy and primer can get heavy quick.
Once everything is covered I focus on the fillets. First they need to be sanded to remove any glaze left from the curing process. This not only smooths them out a bit but gives the primer coat a rough surface to grab onto. You can see in the photo a couple sanding blocks I've made for this operation. You cannot just wrap sand paper around your finger, if you do you will create divots in the balsa next to the fillets.
Next step is probably the most important step when it comes to finishing fillets. Brush on a coat of Brodak White Primer. This will stick to the fillet and almost eliminate any tendency for the finish to lift and create dreaded fillet bubbles. Got this trick off a Windy video and have not had a single problem with lifting fillets since I started doing it. Only exception was I once got in a hurry and ended up putting a coat of clear dope over Aeropoxy fillets before I brushed on the primer. This was a real bad thing to do and I paid for it by having to sand completely down to the fillets and start over.
I extend the primer out far enough to cover the SLC seam. This will seal the grain and end of the covering, I also do this when I use Monokote with a painted fuselage. When I paint the fuselage I paint out over the covering edge.
When all this cures I'll cover the fuselage with carbon. I could use SLC on the fuselage but due to the many compound curves and the concave joint simulating the FJ's razor back, carbon veil with filler will be a better choice.
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We put a MACS pipe on a TT on the test stand and it lost RPM, besides I don't think pipes are legal.
They are but you are limited to 10% nitro.
Do you just paint right over the SLC? Or is there another step? I have never used it but have heard of quite a few people that have and liked it.
David
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They are but you are limited to 10% nitro.
Do you just paint right over the SLC? Or is there another step? I have never used it but have heard of quite a few people that have and liked it.
David
That's the plan, hope it works. Before I've always covered it with silkspan but this time I'm going to try to paint dope directly over the SLC. Steve Moon has finished several stunt ships like this except with auto paint. I'll scotch bright the SLC before painting, my main fear is pulling up paint when I mask for the lettering.
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If you scuff up the SLC there is no problem.
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Today I covered the fuselage with .2oz carbon veil ordered from Aerospace Composets. First I used the template I made for the wing cut out to make a cutout for the wing in the carbon. I use disposable razor blades for most of the trim work as they will get dope on them during trimming and carbon is rough on sharp edges. When they quit cutting I just throw it away and grab another.
The piece is them cut off the roll and laid on the fuselage. I start doping it down at the nose and work my way back. You can see in the second photo it's about 1/2 way stuck down. I don't worry about areas that aren't covered at this time, I'll come back and get those with scraps I trim off as I'm covering. Also don't be concerned with overlaps they will get blended in during the filling sanding stages.
3rd photo showed the first piece all doped down and some of the trimming is done. I wanted to double up over the bellcrank mount and also put a small piece over the brass tube for my tail hook release. I just used the piece I cut out for the wing, trimmed and stuck it down over the bellcrank mount.
Once this side is dry enough to be able to trim the edges I can start on the other side..
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Now have the first pieces on both sides and while I'm waiting for the second side to dry I can do the rudder and patches on the first side. In the first photo you can see how nice the carbon laid down into the convex curves of the fuselage. I don't worry too much about covering fillets unless the carbon completely bridges the fillet like it does on this rudder. When this happens I cheat by running a razor blade down the fillet to cut the carbon. the cut will get filled when I start smearing on filler and helps prevent the carbon from pulling up and creating a bubble.
Last photo is showing it all covered and drying. After I get 3 or 4 coats of dope on I'll lightly sand the overlaps to start blending them in, add another couple coats of dope then start filling with corn starch mixed with clear dope. I've tried talc, corn starch and Zinc Sterate and Corn Starch is by far the best filler to use over carbon. Zinc Sterate just doesn't fill the weave and talc is much heavier than corn starch.
Well now the drudgery begins, dope, dope, dope, sand, dope, sand, fill, sand, fill, sand.... Might be a few days before I make another post unless someone has any questions....
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Bob: I'm enjoying your project. RE: Superfil - use alcohol instead of the water to shape before curing. With alcohol it will smooth out very similar to what Sig Epoxy-Lite does with water but is much easier to sand. I like it. Also, thanks for the tip on cornstarch vs Zinc Sterate on CF. I've been having trouble getting the CF on the flaps of my current project (s) to smooth out w/ Zinc Sterate filler. Gonna try the cornstarch mix. 8)
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Rusty Bown told me the secret to filling carbon fiber. Don't blow the dust off after sanding. Just dope it.
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I'm tired of sanding but getting there, no pictures right now it's too ugly. Getting concerned about dopes stick ability directly over SLC covering. Some filler (clear with Corn starch) has slopped over onto the SLC and it will flake right off. Understand the filler will make it less sticky but it's worrying me enough to take another approach.
This will add a little more weight but maybe not that much. DupliColor primer seems to stick very well to SLC, have decided to spray the primer in a very light coat over everything that is SLC. If not using dope all you need to spray is the seams and edges but I'm thinking a dust coat of primer will help the dope stick and not add that much weight.
Using the rudder as a test piece I have sprayed it with primer, sanded lightly with 400 and painted it with white Brodak dope. Tomorrow when the dope is dry I'll mask off the black diamonds, paint them and see if I can remove the mask without pulling up any white. If it passes this test I'll be a happy camper..
The good part is 90% of what will get masked is on the fuselage which is over carbon and I know I won't have any lifting problems on the fuselage...
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That is one thing they forgot to tell us. No filler of anykind in the clear dope. I may bring it to Tulsa sometime, but I tried that on the Circus Prince. It is not pretty as some flaked off and the rest wont budge.
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Well... The test piece failed the pull test.. It was mostly OK and if I would have waited another day to let the white dry better and used a hair dryer when I pulled the mask it would have probably been OK. I would say it's about the same as using silver as a blocking coat, you can do it but you have to be very careful when pulling up your mask or you will take it right down to the silver.. I'm kinda committed on this airplane as I already have everything covered with SLC.
I'll go ahead with plan A mainly because what little masking I need to do over the SLC but in the future if I use dope and SLC I'll put silkspan over the SLC before I paint. Kinda like the choice to use polar grey instead of silver because you have a much better chance of not pulling the finish up with your mask or tape.
I'll just strip the SLC off the rudder, recover it and start over. Not really a big deal but if this would have happened on a top wing panel it would be much more work to fix.
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Well I'll be.... Went to the auto parts store to pick up a can of white Duplicolor primer and ran across a can that's labled "Adhesion Promoter". Says " Improves adhesion of all paints. Quick dry clear primer. Idea for automotive plastics." It's also by Duplicolor, in fine print says "Ideal for plastics, fiberglass and bumpers." Couldn't help but buy a can, may just be THE solution to dope over SLC.
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Still sanding.. between other projects, when I get sick of sanding I go work on something else for a while. Today I literally peeled the dope off the rudder. With the help of a few pieces of regular masking tape it came right off. In one way this made it easier in another wished it hadn't been so easy. Most of the Duplicator primer I sprayed on also came off so looks like the Sandable primer doesn't stick to SLC any better than straight dope.
Tomorrow I'll do a test with the can of Adhesion Promoter and see what it does. If it doesn't work I may end up at least covering the wings with silkspan. I can just visualize the paint comming off the wings in sheets a year down the road.
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The adhesion promoter should help the paint stick just follow the directions if it says wait between coats then wait, dont try to rush it. I have not used the duplicolor brand but it should work like any other. I have used Sherwin Williams, Kent, and Five Star and they are all about the same. If you still have problems then try to find some epoxy primer(non sandable) to put on before paint. That should help. You can even start with adhesion promoter then the epoxy, then paint, that is what we do at work for plastic bumpers.
What is the surface scuffed or sanded with? I havent used the SLC but probably a Red Scotch Brite pad would be enough to scuff it as long as the shine is gone. One more thing are you wiping the surface down before paint? Because if not then that could be part of the problem, there could be some grease or even oil from your hands that you dont see that could cause the peeling. Some kind of wax and grease remover should work. Im not sure if a regular auto parts place has that or if you might have to go to a automotive paint store.
Well hope this helps, GREAT looking plane cant wait to see some "in action " pictures. Good luck!
David
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Thanks David,
Used a green scotch bright and wiped it down with acetone before I painted. Discovered you can't use any form of prepsol or degreaser on the primer, it will take it right off. Just careful not to touch or use Windex before painting.
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Yeah usually prepsol will take off spray paint, I forgot to say that earlier. The green should be fine.
Just careful not to touch or use Windex before painting.
Same goes for anything with silicone, I have seen that ruin a paint job a few times.
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Been a little while, filling and sanding doesn't justify posts so waited till it was starting to look like something. This morning I masked off everything that needed black and shot it with an air brush. I'm lucky enough to have a small vinyl cutter purchased in another life so cutting all the masks was fairly easy but time consuming.
Have quite a bit of detail work yet to do and have to fix my screw up.. Had my air brush hose where it shouldn't have been, tripped over it and pulled the airbrush along with a jar of lacquer thinner off the bench, no harm except the thinner splashed on the airplane leaving spots all over it. The good part is they sand right out with 1200 and once the clear is on probably won't be any major buggers.. Just a PTA having to deal with something that shouldn't have happened.
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Lookin' good Bob.
What are you using for fine masking tape? ..or is in a sheet form you cut out?
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Most of it was done with vinyl specifically for cutting masks with a vinyl cutter. Comes in rolls and for my cutter it's 8 inches wide. The cutter will only cut 6 inches but that's fine for what we do. For general masking I like the green fine line masking tape made by 3M, have to get it at an auto paint store. I try to keep 1/4 and 1/8 inch around for things like the canopy.
I bought a roll of 1/4 blue 3M but don't like it as well as the green. It's probably better for going around corners but the roll has shriveled up from the summer heat in my shop. Never had that problem with green, next time I'll go back to green.
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The adhesion promoter should help the paint stick just follow the directions if it says wait between coats then wait, dont try to rush it. I have not used the duplicolor brand but it should work like any other. . . .
. . .
David
Great thread! I'll probably never fly carrier, but I learned two very valuable things here that have nothing to do with carrier.
Bob's method of punching out foam wings for graphite rods is a lot slicker than the way I was doing it. Thanks!
Dave's tips on painting SLC are brand new (at least to me). And, applies to other things (painting wheels, prop tips, and more).
Thanks to you both H^^
Larry Fulwider
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Great looking finish there, Bob. I like this model a lot, really has the flavor of Navy carrier.
Chris...
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Finally almost finished.. With all the hardware, 2 ounces of tail weight and an ounce of tip weight it's 47 ounces. I knew it was going to be heavy (compaired to a stunt ship) but I didn't hold any punches on trying to make it strong enough to take a pounding.
Don't think I'll be doing any more panel lines. Spent 5 days on what looks like it might have taken a couple hours and finally just said that's enough and squirted clear on the durn thing. Still have to work on the carb to get the engine running without pressure, hook up the fuel lines and make the flying lines.
Looking forward to seeing if it will fly...
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That's Gorgeous!! Look forward to seeing it fly.
Hope it inspires other Carrier Modelers to try different designs an engine combos.
How did you figure the CG? Swept wings can be a head scratcher.
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First time I figured the CG, I drew the wing in autoCAD and let it calculate the area, then I just started drawing triangles on the wing at the root till I had one that was 20% of the area. This put the CG about 7 1/4 inches behind the leading edge at the root.
Second time I used the calculator here http://www.palosrc.com/instructors/mac.htm to find the actual MAC and CG of the wing. Both figures were withen 1/2 inch so I split the difference. It's a little behind my guesstimate and a little forward of the calculation. Final location yet to be determined...
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Very nice Bob. Will look great coming or going on a deck.
Thanks
Wayne
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Great looking plane. Too bad it doesn't really fit into any event. The Jet Age began in about 1944. That's about 60% of the history of aviation. We need a classs just for "jets with props on the front". Your plane is a good start.
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Too bad it doesn't really fit into any event.
Don't understand the above quote. This model "fits" within the rules of AMA Carrier-Profile. Nothing in the rule book that says "Model must be powered by the same type engine as original".
The guys flying XF5U Flapjacks are entering in Profile even though it could be considered a Class I model, and this prototype aircraft never left the ground?
What about the A2D Skyshark? It may be prop driven but it had a Turbine driving it!
Will a Jet engine strapped on a Guardian meet the 4# limit? (Rule 1 & 3.4.1) :##
You could at least wait till we at Tulsa Gluedobbers finish our Carrier deck before you fire a shot across our bow. R%%%% -Just kidding...
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Bob, I hope it flies as well as it looks. Just don't beat me too bad in profile. As in racing it is not the fastest that always wins or even the slowest as in carrier. I beat Melvin one year when he couldn't get a landing. Need to get my planes out as soon as the snow disappears and the temps come up.
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FYI Most people don't realise that the A2D Skyshark was powered by a power pack consisting of two Allison XT40 turbines mated to a common gear box to turn the two counter rotating Aeroproducts prorellers.It was actually a twin engine aircraft! Mike
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Didn't have the money for the one kit that went on the bay. Too bad Sterling didn't wait until final rules for the profile version. Also does this mean the Skyshark didn't have a piston engine?
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Great looking plane. Too bad it doesn't really fit into any event. The Jet Age began in about 1944. That's about 60% of the history of aviation. We need a classs just for "jets with props on the front". Your plane is a good start.
Ya I really wanted to build an A4 but just couldn't justify an electric ducted fan for an airplane that might get flown 6 times a year. I don't care for jets with props either but it's the only affordable solution when your only hands on experience was with jets and you want to build a model of something you actually worked on. Bet very few carrier entries are something the pilot actually has first hand experience with the real thing.
When I started this project I didn't plan on being competitive, if I wanted to win I'd built an MO1 like everybody else. It's too big, it's too heavy, it won't prop hang but it's what I wanted and certainly cool....
I appreciate all those that help me make this a reality, Lee Thiel who made it possible for me to get a TT 36 for 60 bucks. Tom Martin who donated 4 pound balsa used to sheet the wing all those on the forums that answered my silly questions.. Thanks...
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Actually, it fits into multiple events: Profile Carrier or Sportsman Carrier come to mind. It could also be entered in Nostalgia Carrier but would suffer from not being eligible for the Non-Schneurle engine or Historic Model bonus'. Besides, jets with props are a long established tradition in this event. Just look at Dick Perry's A-4 Skyhawk, the old A-7 that was kitted by Dumas, the Vampires being flown by Bob Frogner in California, and I guess we could throw in the Ryan "Dark Shark" which had a turbo-jet in front and a pure jet in the tail. I like them all.
As far as the plane in question...IT LOOKS GREAT! and will probably do better in competition than expected. If not, so what, you still get the satisfaction of flying a totally cool airplane and (hopefully) making a 100 pt landing. FWIW: This post inspired me to re-start construction of one of my favorites, the Spearfisher. Staying away from in-flight line sliders but with flaps, moveable aileron and rudder, it should fly well. 8)
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Bob, I think your FJ-4 will do excellent in slow flight and landing considering the plane's design and your flying experience!
The fun-factor should always be ahead of competition, unless your goal is the Nats.
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Bob,
I used to be in agreement with you that jets with props did'nt seem quite right but then I built the Vampire and now I kind of think they are neat. Your plane looks absolutely beautiful. What a nice job. I think it will more competitive than you think if you spend a little time getting the balance right. To me that's the most important part of making a carrier plane fly well in both high and low speed. You could fly it in Sportsman or profile and also in nostalgia. Take your pick.
It's going to look great in flight. Try and get some pictures of it in the air. Really great markings and overall good looks. Most carrier planes are much to "rugged" looking, yours will put many to shame!!!!
Hope it flies as good as it looks. Keep us posted.
Bob
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The Skyshark never had a piston engine, that was left to it's brother the Skyraider that had a Wright 3350 ci piston engine. Mike
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Ty, It really did start out to be something simple I was going to throw together, using a foam wing to make the build a bit easier. Then the tail hook idea came along, lee's Airabonita was being built with flaps so had to add flaps. Biggest mistake was ordering Tom's carrier CD, This resulted in the rudder, aleron and using Z spring on the flaps so I didn't have an icky old rubber band holding the hook down. Then it had to have a good finish, spent as much time on this finish as I usually do a stunt ship.
It really was a fun poject, I truly enjoy tinkering with mechanacial things and this gave me a gold mine of items to tinker with. I just hope it flys, I would love to take it to Brodaks and enter it in profile carrier. Even though I know I wouldn't have a chance of placing it would be cool. Especially if I could dig up a brown T shirt :)
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The FJ-4 did have slats, not sure about the earlier FJ versions.
I did think about it briefly, then decided it would be a nightmare. They would need to be deployed mechanically, can't imagine what kind of enginering it would take to make them drop at low speed like the real version. They would need to be laid up from glass or CF and the wing would need to have recess so they would blend into the airfoil. Ya it can be done but.... %^@
Am hoping if I get the CG in a sweet spot the swept wing won't be a hindrance. This things wing loading is far less than most carrier airplanes simply because it so durn big. I'm thinking the low speed should be as good as anything can be without a line slider. High speed is what's going to suck.
First few flights should be real interesting, everyone in the club wants to be sure I wait till they can be at the field when I fly it the first time.
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Especially if I could dig up a brown T shirt :)
I think Tools can get you all that airdale stuff. I'll bet you will place at Brodak's if you take...so you better take it. It qualifies for fun scale too!