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Author Topic: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?  (Read 1354 times)

Offline bdt-m

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"Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« on: May 01, 2023, 10:39:48 AM »
12.1.5.
"An arrested landing is any landing in which the model’s forward
motion is stopped primarily by the arresting hook engaging any
arresting cable. The landing is scored at the point where the
model’s forward motion is first arrested, and the flight is
terminated at that time. (Judges Guide: A model which is arrested
in a normal attitude shall receive full points. If the hook
subsequently becomes disengaged, or the model rolls or is pulled
off the deck after forward motion has been arrested, the landing
score is not affected"

Primarily definition: for the most part; mainly...not entirely

Question:

If a carrier makes a landing in normal attitude, however; the hook is not engaged, or has not engaged a cable, is the landing given full 100 points? I would say YES based on the definition of the rules, what is your opinion?

Offline john vlna

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2023, 11:42:17 AM »
it means if you hook up and stop, but then back off the wire(which can happen if you don't have a keeper on your hook) the you get the landing 100pts.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2023, 04:44:27 PM »
it means if you hook up and stop, but then back off the wire(which can happen if you don't have a keeper on your hook) the you get the landing 100pts.

Soo if you don't hook up a rope/wire, just land on the deck between the ropes/wires you don't get 100 points, you get ZERO points.... correct?

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2023, 06:49:24 PM »
Soo if you don't hook up a rope/wire, just land on the deck between the ropes/wires you don't get 100 points, you get ZERO points.... correct?

That is correct.

My A-4P still in motion. The hook stayed with the cable and scored 100 points. Arrested landings can be a violent event...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2023, 07:14:29 PM »
From the 2022 NATS...

The A-4P is a fun plane to fly...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2023, 07:40:08 PM »
The real deal...up close and personal...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2023, 11:31:00 AM »
That is correct.

My A-4P still in motion. The hook stayed with the cable and scored 100 points. Arrested landings can be a violent event...

Ok, if "that is correct"...then the word "primarily" needs to be removed from the rule.

By definition "primarily" does not mean 100% of the time, it means for the most part. 60% of the time is for the most part, the remaining 40% is a grey area, one that insinuates you don't have to hook a cable/wire as long as the landing is arrested (motion stopped) in a normal attitude.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2023, 01:22:31 PM »
I doubt that it will ever change.

It's rather unrealistic in that real planes could approach a fast-moving carrier in a headwind at low speed and a make perfectly good landing without the use of the hook. 

Old time carrier movies show planes making no-hook landings back when they had the net in lieu the cable-and-hook system.

Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2023, 01:41:48 PM »
I doubt that it will ever change.

It's rather unrealistic in that real planes could approach a fast-moving carrier in a headwind at low speed and a make perfectly good landing without the use of the hook. 

Old time carrier movies show planes making no-hook landings back when they had the net in lieu the cable-and-hook system.

I am OK with whatever rules are in place as long as they are clearly defined and not open to judgement via one's bias.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2023, 02:13:31 PM »
The arrested landing rule works OK for me.  I tend to come in fast so an arrested landing is the only way I land.

Some guys hover in at zero airspeed and stop the engine when the prop hits the deck.  So they could actually achieve an unhooked landing.
Paul Smith

Online bill bischoff

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2023, 09:14:17 AM »
The wheels can also get under the arresting lines, stopping the model. If you catch the hook, you shouldn't be penalized for snagging the gear.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2023, 09:55:40 AM »
The wheels can also get under the arresting lines, stopping the model. If you catch the hook, you shouldn't be penalized for snagging the gear.

Agreed….the question still remains unclear to me; if the hook does not arrest, yet model stop motion in an upright attitude, do you receive 100 points?

Online bill bischoff

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2023, 11:01:58 AM »
No. The hook has to catch.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2023, 11:57:55 AM »
No. The hook has to catch.

OK....I am good if that is the intention of the current rules, however; that is not what the meaning of the rules state:

"The word "primarily" needs to be removed from the rule"....by definition "primarily" does not mean 100% of the time, it means for the most part. 60% of the time is for the most part, the remaining 40% is a grey area, one that insinuates you don't have to hook a cable/wire as long as the landing is arrested (motion stopped) in a normal attitude".

Lack of clarity & rules left interpretation without a clear meaning is one reason carrier has seen a decline in participation, specially at the National level.... clarity shouldn't be that difficult.

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2023, 07:19:10 PM »
OK....I am good if that is the intention of the current rules, however; that is not what the meaning of the rules state:

"The word "primarily" needs to be removed from the rule"....by definition "primarily" does not mean 100% of the time, it means for the most part. 60% of the time is for the most part, the remaining 40% is a grey area, one that insinuates you don't have to hook a cable/wire as long as the landing is arrested (motion stopped) in a normal attitude".

Lack of clarity & rules left interpretation without a clear meaning is one reason carrier has seen a decline in participation, specially at the National level.... clarity shouldn't be that difficult.

Your argument is flawed.

Each and every flight and the elements of that flight are scored only on merits of that flight. So it's NOT X flights out of 10 that have to be arrested in the accepted manner. The rule clearly means that the Arrested Landing for EACH flight must employ the arresting hook and the deck arresting gear as the Primary mechanism for stopping the plane. Any other landing scores NO points. Period.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2023, 07:20:29 PM »
Arrested Landing 101 - Session 1...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2023, 07:21:14 PM »
Arrested landing 101 - Session 2...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2023, 07:22:01 PM »
Arrested Landing 101 - Session 3...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2023, 07:22:41 PM »
Arrested Landing 101 - Session 4...
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2023, 09:20:27 PM »
Your argument is flawed.

Each and every flight and the elements of that flight are scored only on merits of that flight. So it's NOT X flights out of 10 that have to be arrested in the accepted manner. The rule clearly means that the Arrested Landing for EACH flight must employ the arresting hook and the deck arresting gear as the Primary mechanism for stopping the plane. Any other landing scores NO points. Period.

"Arrested Landing for EACH flight must employ the arresting hook and the deck arresting gear as the Primary mechanism for stopping the plane. Any other landing scores NO points".... show me exactly what section of the rules states your bogus statement; it doesn't.... "you must employ the arresting hook" is NOT in the rules.

VTOL carrier aircraft are landing without engaging any cables-wire-ropes. I guess they don't count as arrested either. Not in your "arrested landing" 101, 1-4.

Offline john vlna

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2023, 04:42:50 AM »
Para 12.1.5 clearly states that a hook must be used

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2023, 10:21:27 AM »
Para 12.1.5 clearly states that a hook must be used

12.1.5: "stopped primarily by the arresting hook engaging any arresting cable"... as stated in an earlier post, the word "primarily" needs to be removed IMO as it adds vagueness to the rule. The definition of primarily does not mean 100% of the time, nor that the hook is the only component of the model that can produce an "arrested" landing.

With that said; I understand the intent of the rule, and if flying carrier I would need to engage the rope-wire with the hook to earn the 100 points.

Offline katana

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2023, 03:41:47 PM »
Primarily also can be taken to mean 'first' and in that context the hook must / should be considered the first choice for performing an 'arrest'. Failing that, other bits of the undercarriage may perform an arrest or snag a cable to complete a landing. Just my interpretation  :-\

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2023, 05:47:31 PM »
Primarily also can be taken to mean 'first' and in that context the hook must / should be considered the first choice for performing an 'arrest'. Failing that, other bits of the undercarriage may perform an arrest or snag a cable to complete a landing. Just my interpretation  :-\

Agree, therefore more than one way to get an arrested landing.

Offline john vlna

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2023, 06:24:00 AM »
BDT-m
Do you fly carrier? Come to the Brodak FlyIn and see how it works.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2023, 12:41:20 PM »
BDT-m
Do you fly carrier? Come to the Brodak FlyIn and see how it works.

Believe me, I know how it works  :).... being on the Western side of the US, PA is a bit far to travel. Any good carrier contest in AZ, NM, NV, CA...?

Offline john vlna

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2023, 02:33:07 PM »
Yes there are, I will see if I can find alist for you

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2023, 04:29:57 PM »
Yes there are, I will see if I can find alist for you

Thank you John….!

Online Mike Hazel

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2023, 06:53:51 PM »
Drive a little farther to Southern Oregon, and fly Carrier for 3 days!   (Northwest CL Regionals)

Offline john vlna

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2023, 07:15:37 AM »
Bdt-m I sent you a PM

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2023, 10:07:13 AM »
Bdt-m I sent you a PM

Thank you John!

Drive a little farther to Southern Oregon, and fly Carrier for 3 days!   (Northwest CL Regionals)

Mike, thanks for the information, not possible this year, next year might make the trip.

Offline Kris Millard

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2023, 04:43:28 PM »
One of my flights at a recent contest did not hook a wire, but snagged the landing gear on a wire. Other than that, the landing was perfect.

zero points!

Cost me a killer score.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: "Arrested" "primarily" landing?
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2023, 05:23:42 PM »
As noted above:

12.1.5: "stopped primarily by the arresting hook engaging any arresting cable"... as stated in an earlier post, the word "primarily" needs to be removed IMO as it adds vagueness to the rule. The definition of primarily does not mean 100% of the time, nor that the hook is the only component of the model that can produce an "arrested" landing.

Not awarding 100 points when the model completed an "arrested" landing by the landing gear, IMO is not the correct ruling nor interpretation of the rules.


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