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Author Topic: A brief history of carrier rules  (Read 902 times)

Online Paul Smith

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A brief history of carrier rules
« on: May 19, 2023, 08:18:16 AM »
This is what I recall:

Circa 1949 to 1966: 17 years, the early days: Just one class, 4 pounds and 44" wingspan, scale only, all the power you could get.  This worked fine until newer high-powered 65's made the event too fast, powerful and dangerous for most people.

1967 to 1975:  7 years, The Golden Age.  Profile and Class I were added, bringing the event back into the grasp of many more modelers.  Profile was designated as an "entry" class and separated from the scale classes at The Nats.

1976 to 2023:  47 years, the decline and impending demise of Carrier.   The rules change that massively increased low speed scoring and made sliders effectively mandatory got rid of the majority of active flyers without bringing in anybody new. 

2024 onward:  We have two rules proposals under review.  They are certainly NOT what I would have proposed.  They will effectively obsolete the equipment of about three or four people who currently dominate the event.  But, hey what's new?   The rules change of 1976 wiped-out maybe 100 competitors.  47 years!!   They got money's worth.

I fly all the categories. There have always been rules changes in combat, racing, stunt, speed, and scale that render equipment either obsolete or illegal.  Even without rules changes, new equipment replaces the old.  Sometimes old time or nostalgia events bring back the old stuff.

If the two proposals pass I will make planes with fixed leadouts and maximum wing area and just fly slow at a 28 degree angle like a real airplane. 

There is a chance that the elimination of the hassles of sliders and five-minute low speed will bring in more than the two people who might quit.
Paul Smith

Online Paul Smith

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2023, 10:12:38 AM »
I'm not on the Carrier Contest Board so my opinion is just my opinion, along with everybody else, except for the board.

If these rules changes cause half the flyers to quit that will only be two or three actual flyers.  The greatly simplified models could attract more new flyers than the few who quit.

The disastrous rules of 1976 cleared out at least 100 actives with no new additions.  I flew every possible contest from 1968 to 1975 and didn't come back until 2005, drawn in by 15, Nostalgia, Skyray, and NWS-40.   I retrofitted some profiles to "slide & hover", but I never did build a Class I or II hovercraft, so, to be honest, I welcome the changes.
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2023, 11:14:57 AM »
I'm not on the Carrier Contest Board so my opinion is just my opinion, along with everybody else, except for the board.

If these rules changes cause half the flyers to quit that will only be two or three actual flyers.  The greatly simplified models could attract more new flyers than the few who quit.

The disastrous rules of 1976 cleared out at least 100 actives with no new additions.  I flew every possible contest from 1968 to 1975 and didn't come back until 2005, drawn in by 15, Nostalgia, Skyray, and NWS-40.   I retrofitted some profiles to "slide & hover", but I never did build a Class I or II hovercraft, so, to be honest, I welcome the changes.
This is what I recall:

Circa 1949 to 1966: 17 years, the early days: Just one class, 4 pounds and 44" wingspan, scale only, all the power you could get.  This worked fine until newer high-powered 65's made the event too fast, powerful and dangerous for most people.

1967 to 1975:  7 years, The Golden Age.  Profile and Class I were added, bringing the event back into the grasp of many more modelers.  Profile was designated as an "entry" class and separated from the scale classes at The Nats.

1976 to 2023:  47 years, the decline and impending demise of Carrier.   The rules change that massively increased low speed scoring and made sliders effectively mandatory got rid of the majority of active flyers without bringing in anybody new. 

2024 onward:  We have two rules proposals under review.  They are certainly NOT what I would have proposed.  They will effectively obsolete the equipment of about three or four people who currently dominate the event.  But, hey what's new?   The rules change of 1976 wiped-out maybe 100 competitors.  47 years!!   They got money's worth.

I fly all the categories. There have always been rules changes in combat, racing, stunt, speed, and scale that render equipment either obsolete or illegal.  Even without rules changes, new equipment replaces the old.  Sometimes old time or nostalgia events bring back the old stuff.

If the two proposals pass I will make planes with fixed leadouts and maximum wing area and just fly slow at a 28 degree angle like a real airplane. 

There is a chance that the elimination of the hassles of sliders and five-minute low speed will bring in more than the two people who might quit.

Boy....if the intent is to KILL, the little that remains of competitive carrier flying, then keep changing the rules. Being one that has flown carrier in the 70's, 90's and was/is considering giving carrier another try, I would say changing the rules once again, leaves me with a bitter taste of Deja'Vu, and makes me wonder why I would ever consider carrier again.

Online Paul Smith

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2023, 12:44:13 PM »
If you do not have one of the FEW left-handed 36's, 40's or 65's you have NO chance to win a significant contest under the current rules.  These minor changes would open the door to new new people.

"Keep changing the rules?"  Huh?  There have been they way they are since 1976.  That's 47 years with the same rules.  The winners of today have gotten their money's worth by now.  47 years is a long long time by AMA Rules standards.

I have a damaged Profile that I was about to fix.  But if these rules are accepted I will rebuild it to a 30 degree low speed with no slider.  Like most everybody else, I do not have an inside connection to an engine builder who can make a left-handed speed engine.

The intent is not to kill the event.  That happened in 1976.  This is an attempt to resurrect it.
Paul Smith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2023, 01:10:35 PM »
Only time will tell.  My last profile was equiped with the new radio system.   i neede to put a bigger tank on it and get it to hang.  But my body decidedit was enough and I haven't flown a plane in almost three years.  I still like carrier.  I still have my Sportsman trophy in which a lot of people statec that was the way carrier should be flown.  Got maybe 15 degrees at times.  I know I had fun with that plane and still have it.I'm working on getting back in the circle.  But who knows. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2023, 04:16:11 PM »
Only time will tell.  My last profile was equiped with the new radio system.   i neede to put a bigger tank on it and get it to hang.  But my body decidedit was enough and I haven't flown a plane in almost three years.  I still like carrier.  I still have my Sportsman trophy in which a lot of people statec that was the way carrier should be flown.  Got maybe 15 degrees at times.  I know I had fun with that plane and still have it.I'm working on getting back in the circle.  But who knows. H^^

Doc has a point; we are all getting older, flying gets harder with old age, might consider a rule proposal that would actually increase participation and not diminish it. Should consider allowing the entrant to either fly or launch the model, similar rule as Speed has in place. This would allow the older flyers to participate when they cannot due to older age.

Online Paul Smith

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2023, 06:09:11 PM »
Doc has a point; we are all getting older, flying gets harder with old age, might consider a rule proposal that would actually increase participation and not diminish it. Should consider allowing the entrant to either fly or launch the model, similar rule as Speed has in place. This would allow the older flyers to participate when they cannot due to older age.

There is no "BOM" rule in carrier.  A builder who no longer choses to fly can already enter a model under another name and have somebody else fly it.  No further consideration is needed.  Also, the "team entry" provision is still in "The Book". 
Paul Smith

Offline bdt-m

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2023, 08:12:02 PM »
There is no "BOM" rule in carrier.  A builder who no longer choses to fly can already enter a model under another name and have somebody else fly it.  No further consideration is needed.  Also, the "team entry" provision is still in "The Book".

The question then becomes; can one contestant fly his own entry plus those entered by others? Can he pilot multiple entries beyond his own? This then would be the same as Speed, allowing those that can't or deicide not to fly their entries to launch and participate.

Offline Jim Dross

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2023, 07:34:26 AM »
As one of the 100 that stopped carrier who's airplanes became obsolete with the rules change of 1975 , we had some complexity in our airplanes to garner better slow speed , when commanded Flaps came down, Rudder went to the right , Right Aileron kicked up plus extra tip weight helped. In Class 1, I used  St G40s , HP 40s and K&B 6.5s  In Class 2  it was the ST 65 RV ABC . All of these engines were standard rotation running on 60% Nitro. To win required Lots of PRACTICE plus teaching all of the engines to behave in low speed. I found that most Carrier Flyers did not practice just brought out their planes for contests only.   Due to age and Handicap I am Obsolete.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2023, 09:49:15 AM »
As one of the 100 that stopped carrier who's airplanes became obsolete with the rules change of 1975 , we had some complexity in our airplanes to garner better slow speed , when commanded Flaps came down, Rudder went to the right , Right Aileron kicked up plus extra tip weight helped. In Class 1, I used  St G40s , HP 40s and K&B 6.5s  In Class 2  it was the ST 65 RV ABC . All of these engines were standard rotation running on 60% Nitro. To win required Lots of PRACTICE plus teaching all of the engines to behave in low speed. I found that most Carrier Flyers did not practice just brought out their planes for contests only.   Due to age and Handicap I am Obsolete.

An entrant should be allowed to fly or launch his entry as long as the pilot is an AMA member, just like speed. This would allow entries that can't pilot their own models to participate.... Jim you would no longer be "Obsolete".  y1

Online Paul Smith

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2023, 11:14:12 AM »
As one of the 100 that stopped carrier who's airplanes became obsolete with the rules change of 1975 , we had some complexity in our airplanes to garner better slow speed , when commanded Flaps came down, Rudder went to the right , Right Aileron kicked up plus extra tip weight helped. In Class 1, I used  St G40s , HP 40s and K&B 6.5s  In Class 2  it was the ST 65 RV ABC . All of these engines were standard rotation running on 60% Nitro. To win required Lots of PRACTICE plus teaching all of the engines to behave in low speed. I found that most Carrier Flyers did not practice just brought out their planes for contests only.   Due to age and Handicap I am Obsolete.

The thing is, under the pre-1976 rules, a 20-24 MPH was OK as long as fast was fast.
But under the 10Xratio system of scoring, sliders and reverse rotation are necessary to get the required four-minute+ low speed. 
I flew most contests from 1968 to 1975 and quit because of the 10Xratio rules.

I got back in because of 15, nostalgia, Skyray and NWS-40.  I dabble in modern profile and Class I & II, but I doubt that I will ever bother to try modern under current rules.

I fly with you Carrier Contest Board member, Mark Warwashana.  ALL of his engines are left-handed and he freely admits that this is the ONLY way to go. He will not be voting to change.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 07:23:33 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2023, 11:43:28 AM »
With all due respect, Paul, there is just one problem with your argument. I know for certain that the current holder of the three Electric Navy Carrier records runs right hand rotation. And, I'm pretty certain the Glow records are likewise. Folks are entitled to their opinion, but that don't make it gospel.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline john vlna

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2023, 08:02:32 AM »
i HAVE FOUND SOME Planes ACTUALLY FLY BETTER WITH NORMAL ROTATION. And I think you are correct the current two top fliers use standard rotation. I know Burt does I have pitted for him a lot at the NATS.
Going slow requires a lot of trimming, and practice. There is no secret here it just takes skill to go fast and really slow under the current rules.
I think the current rules make carrier a challenging and fun event.

Offline bdt-m

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Re: A brief history of carrier rules
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2023, 09:41:58 AM »
i HAVE FOUND SOME Planes ACTUALLY FLY BETTER WITH NORMAL ROTATION. And I think you are correct the current two top fliers use standard rotation. I know Burt does I have pitted for him a lot at the NATS.
Going slow requires a lot of trimming, and practice. There is no secret here it just takes skill to go fast and really slow under the current rules.
I think the current rules make carrier a challenging and fun event.

Agree 100%.... some just are not up to the challenge, that's 'OK'.... leave the rules alone  y1


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