Author Topic: Heresy, your thoughts (Read 2688 times)

Joe Just · « **on:** October 25, 2010, 09:15:02 AM »

I realized after posting a repley in the subject on the .15 size jet that Bob Reves is building that I was causing the thread to wander away from the original thought. So, please read my repley to John Vlna's thoughts on perhaps deleting the 60 degree ruling and then add your thoughts hear rather than hi-jack Bob's subject. Thanks for my oversite.

Joe Just

john vlna · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2010, 11:31:15 AM »

Joe
Skill classes work in stunt, and I think they can work in other events. The problem it seems today is there is so little carrier interest that it would be hard to get skill classes implemented. We would have people literally flying against themselves.
John

Joe Just · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2010, 02:03:27 PM »

How about this? Have an "Expert" Class for those wishing to simply keep the event as it is with sliders, 60 degree hanging etc. Then, another class called "Carrier" Class for lack of a better name. The "Carrier " class could not be entered by anyone in the Expert class. "Carrier" class would be for .15's and profile only with no sliders etc. When the NCS had over 100 members two of us worked on presenting skill classes and found about 12 guys in Expert, the rest spread through two, possibly 3 other classes. Nothing ever came to fruition. Want some real "Heresy? Start another Society. Leave the NCS to stand alone and continue on its own with my and others blessings. Using the category of "Sportsman" has done practically nothing to increase participation. Right now the NCS has 13 classifications for inclusion in the Top 20 standings each year. Open Profile has 20 names in the top 20 for 2010 Sportsman has only 9, but 5 of those names have scores that could be listed in open profile.

Her's the rest of the top 20 for this year. Class 1...13 fliers listed, 7 of which fly other events. Class 2....7 fliers listed, 6 of which fly other carrier events. Skyray....5 fliers, all of which fly other carrier events. .15 Profile....20 fliers, 10 of which fly other carrier events. Nostalgia Profile...10 fliers, all but 2 fly other Carrier events. Class 1 & 2 Nostalgia combined have a total of 6 fliers, most flying other carrier events. Electric Carrier has only 5 or 6 fliers listed in the top 20 this year, and it is too soon to make much of that.

With a possibility of having 260 names on the NCS top 20 for 2010 there are only a total of 93 names shown on the report. With just 43 flying only 1 event. I am really not alone in thinking we must change something to keep this great portion of the control line hobby from slipping away to nothing.

MORE IDEAS?

Joe

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:28:59 PM »

Just a Carrier Flyer wannabee------there are a couple of us in the Central Alabama Stunt Squadron----but we have no interest in the line slider type of models. Strictly Nostalgia, and we will attend contests in the S.E. and actually talked about building a deck for our contest. But, we have seen little interest in the Nostalgia classes---so, no deck at this time.

We would consider a grass "deck" for our next contest, given a little encouragement.

Cheers,
Jim

john vlna · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:34:14 PM »

There is nothing wrong with a grass deck, go for it.

john vlna · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:37:22 PM »

Joe,
I think you need more classes, and have to do it on scores. I fly at 60 degrees, but if I used the stunt system (4 levels), I would probably come out an intermediate flier. I only use 10%, stock engines etc. , and my scores normally don't get above 260. I wouldn't fit either your expert or carrier class. I can think of others that would fit an advanced class, typically scoring in the 280-300 range. Experts would be in the above 300 scoring. Below 220 sportsman

Sportsman up to 220
Intermmediate 220-280
Advanced 280-310
Expert 310-

I think the problem of hanging or not, sliders or not is an argument that should have died years ago. When I came it to carrier about 1990 as you recall, the 60 degree rule had been in effect for nearly 15 years. All the folks that didn't like that rule had quit by then, and there still were a lot of people flying. It took me about 4 weekend to learn how to hang a plane. But to get really good takes lots of practice.

If you don't want to do a slider and hang you can still fly, however today except for sportsman you can't win. By the way the 2nd place winner at Brodak's in sportsman didn't use a slider. The first and third places did.

With all of us getting older a rule might pass, but we could do it like Pampa did, just do it.

Joe Just · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2010, 06:54:49 PM »

John, good ideas. When PAMPA offered the 4 classifications to the AMA the answer they got was basically, "Try it out on local bases first". this was after PAMPA had been using the 4 classes for some time. the rule changes have to get past the NCS first. Can it be done? Personally I think that 3 classes would be a good beginning, say Sportsman 0 to 222, next class Essex Class 223 to 325, and finally the Enterprize class 326 and up. Leave the top class as the rules now state. First class no sliders operational, Essex Class sliders locked in place during flight, Enterprize class sliders, 60 degree and all that is OK. Just another suggestion. Perhaps a committee could work it out for the first year. One problem is engine displacement. Perhaps the use of .40's would be allowed in the first two classes, or just the first class.

Despite some reservations I am going to build at least 2 new planes for the NW .40 Profile event. Only 2 available engines can be used, the OS.40FP or the Tower >40. No sliders, muffler pressure allowed, the rest of the AMA rules as they are with minor changes in Aircraft perimeters.

Joe Just · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2010, 06:59:51 PM »

We would consider a grass "deck" for our next contest, given a little encouragement.

Cheers,
Jim
[/quote]

Jim run a contest with Carrier as an event and I wil support by sending you a Brodak Gaurdian as a prize. No contest, consider having a Postal Carrier Contest local fun fly event in 2011. Special new rules will make Clubs and individual sponsors elligible for $$ prizes in 2011.

Joe

john vlna · « **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2010, 07:34:03 PM »

Joe,
Get over trying to get rid of sliders. If the expert class can use them then the lower classes should use the same rules. Maybe you could simplify the lowest class, but as long and hanging is allowed let people do it. Your scheme won't work, with sliders locked the essex class can't get the high scores. And it would not be a step to expert. It is harder to take off with the lines back than to use a slider.

David Miller · « **Reply #9 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:29:25 AM »

Joe is not the only one who doesn't care for the sliders. One comment I hear all the time from spectator's is "that just doesn't look right or real". Yes I fly carrier and I am working on one with a slider but I still don't like it. I just feel I should try one because so many are. Some controversys may never go away but it does keep us all juiced up sometimes.

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #10 on:** October 26, 2010, 06:31:40 AM »

My (limited?) understanding of the reason for control line Carrier flying was to simulate naval flight operations. Maybe as a way to thank the U.S. Navy for allowing their facilities to be used for contests like the Nats and to promote interest among young men to "Fly Navy" in real life.

During the very few days that I was on the Enterprise, I never saw a 60* slow flight or approach........

So, no sliders for me, thank you very much.......

Jim

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #11 on:** October 26, 2010, 08:10:09 AM »

Quote from: Jim Oliver on October 26, 2010, 06:31:40 AM

My (limited?) understanding of the reason for control line Carrier flying was to simulate naval flight operations. Maybe as a way to thank the U.S. Navy for allowing their facilities to be used for contests like the Nats and to promote interest among young men to "Fly Navy" in real life.

During the very few days that I was on the Enterprise, I never saw a 60* slow flight or approach........

So, no sliders for me, thank you very much.......

Jim

Jim,

You nailed it! Navy Carrier was created to tie in the Navy with AMA competition. The early rules were crafted to create a balance between "scaleness" and performance. Cal Smith's NATS winning Skyraider could have easily competed in C/L Scale. Remember, it was not all that long after WW II and Korea. Images of Hellcats, Corsairs, and Avengers blasting off carriers were still fresh in folks minds. I do recall Art Johnson taking me to task for trying to fly my Profile Wildcat at about a 15 degree attitude during one of the Chicago NATS.

But...that didn't last long. Performance began to push scaleness into the background. The state-of-the-art has simply elevated the desire for performance (i.e. "the score") to the point that scaleness is irrelevant.

Only now can a modern Naval aircraft routinely operate at a 60 degree flight attitude. So I guess if someone were to build a F/A 18 then slow flight , as currently practiced, would be ok. But...even these planes are flown to an arrested landing.

I suppose, objectively, the "go fast" days were not that much different from the "go slow" approach of today as far as adhering to "scaleness" but it sure was a lot more exciting to watch and be a part of.

Joe Just · « **Reply #12 on:** October 26, 2010, 09:21:43 AM »

Quote from: john vlna on October 25, 2010, 07:34:03 PM

Joe,
Get over trying to get rid of sliders. If the expert class can use them then the lower classes should use the same rules.

John, the major negative thought about getting into flying Carrier IS THE SLIDER/60 DEGREE FLYING! this is the bigest reason why people don't want to even give Carrier a try. With things being what they are, we will probable never get rid of sliders/60 degree slow flight. So, what is left? Leave the expert class as is and end up with some sort of skill class arrangement with limits on slider usage. If after giving Carrier a try a flier wants to move on up, More Power to Them! the rest can certainly enjoy a more laid back, non envelope pushing event. In viewing and talking with participants in PA (Stunt) I have been told that Beginner and intermediate classes are FUN! the Fun stops at advanced when things get serious. I assume that .15's popularity is based on the lack of envelope pushing availability of rules; that is, no sliders allowed & speed limit rulings.

I do have to say that the existing rules do make for some great performances. I recognise the skill,practice and time it takes to be a Nats challenger. Slow flight as it is now preformed can be spell binding. But, take it from somebody that has been a timer in several Nats, it can be boring to watch. I was forced to carry a lap counter because of how long the slow laps take, I could often become confused as to what lap the flier was on. In talking with spectators at the Nats I have often been told that slow flight was really impressive, but nothing the viewer wanted to try to emulate, and therein lays the problem. The possible slution may have to rest on the NCS to really get behind solving the demise of a great part of a great hobby.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #13 on:** October 26, 2010, 09:25:11 AM »

More participation? Eliminate line sliders in Sportsman. I have yet to hear a convincing arguement for keeping them in. Why are the NCS leaders dead-set against it? As can be noted from posts here the lack of a non-slider class is deeping more than a few folks (including myself) from getting as involved in the event as we could be. Come on NCS, throw us traditionalists a bone, eliminate line sliders in Sportsman (change the name to "Traditional Carrier maybe?), and see what happens!

Nostalgia Carrier: Why didn't it "take off" , Among other reasons: Class I and II planes are labor intensive, in profile there are not a lot of planes to choose from and plans can be hard to find for either class. What keeps me away is the vintage engine bonus. Sure, only a few points but why? There is no engine bonus in OTS or classic stunt and those events are thriving. It is another rule that discourages partipation and makes it tough for a new guy to want to get involved. I have some vintage engines but would most didn't run all that good on the day and age hasn't improved them. Give me a TT-36 with a Perry Carb on any day. Sorry guys, electrics VERBOTTEN in either Traditional Carrier or Nostalgia per "Pete's Rules".

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #14 on:** October 26, 2010, 10:25:07 AM »

Pete, actually there is an engine bonus in OTS for ignition as I recall.

from one who was VERY interested in carrier, I posed several questions regarding the viability of a profile that would qualify for the nostalgia and then again for the current class. what I ended up getting was a rant about how sliders ruined the event, then it went off about how if i didnt want to practice dont bother, then it went to if you dont want to build then dont bother,,
sadly, as Joe knows, I am a passionate builder, and if I do say so,I am fairly accomplished. I am also a serious competetor, as in I will spend the time to be competative. I was very frustrated by the responses. Mostly because no one could answer my question in a logical way. ( it was about the rules ) I still dont know what its supposed to be and as such wont build a plane that I dont have a clear understanding about how the rules work with regards to it.

I have no interest in .15 carrier, I dont enjoy flying small planes at all, in my experience they tend to be very tempermental in varied weather conditions and would greatly aggrevate the attempt to compete with them, FOR ME ...

There has been mentioned that they are going to promote a class in the NW next year that may hold some interest, it is an FP40 ONLY class with no sliders and factory mufflers. So I can build something simple, paint it in a military scheme , fly with an engine I have, and try it out, if I dont enjoy it, then I have not had to buy dedicated special motors, ( I am a stunt flier, and have SEVERAL FP 40's which is the reason they proposed this)

That being said, last year I was all wound up about flying carrier, Upon the reccomendation of a local guy who used to hold several records in the event, I bought a K and B appropriate for profile,, then the hula baloo ensued with my questions, it is still sitting new in the box, never broken in, and collecting dust.
You want to encourage new people to fly carrier? REALLY want to encourage them? then quite with all the derisive rhetoric about how this rule ruined the event, how sliders are the bane of humankinds existance on the planet, HOw 60 degrees is the end of the world and actually LISTEN to the people that want to participate ,, but are put off by the crap that goes on surrounding this event. Since I was a teen, I have seen articles about carrier and was fascinated by it. after all the nonsense, my fascination has almost become that of one who stops to watch the EMT's pull an injured person from a car wreck..
You want new people,, make it look like FUN, and a challange,, and quit bashing people.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #15 on:** October 26, 2010, 11:06:06 AM »

Good response Mark. I think the NW 40 competition is a step in the right direction. "Traditional Carrier" would also be. I don't know about bashing people but I do believe that some of the carrier rules currently in effect are not in the best interest of the sport. I forgot about the ignition bonus in OTS but recently I have heard OTS referred to as the "Electric Event". My resistance to the engine bonus in Nostalgia still stands.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #16 on:** October 26, 2010, 11:19:53 AM »

I've always had an interest in Carrier, probably because I spent quite a bit of time on a flight deck in the 60's. This past year the bug finally got me and I built the FJ not really knowing or caring what it would take to make an airplane competitive in Profile. Here we have a stunt/sport flyer dabbling in carrier, am I the typical guy that you would recruit to grow the event? I think so... maybe...

I don't care at all for the unrealistic 60 degree prop hanging slow flight, as said it's really boring. A controlled crash landing is much more exciting, realistic and fun to watch. I would like to see sliders outlawed at least in sportsman and while you are at it allow muffler pressure so you don't have to spend another $40.00 for a carb for your TT 36. This would make Sportsman a truly entry level event and you might see more scale looking entries.

I don't buy the argument for sliders in Sportsman as a step to profile. When and if I'm ready to move to profile I'll build something with a slider and learn how to fly it. Sportsman and 15 should be entry level events and right now under the present rules neither one really is.

john vlna · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2010, 12:48:59 PM »

If you don't like the rules join the NCS and work to change them. Staying away does nothing.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:24:58 PM »

WHY would I want to invest time into changing rules in an event that I dont know that I really want to get deeply involved in . That is one point I am trying to make, what motivation do I have to invest time into it knowing the derision and discontent that already exists surrounding this event. To imply that people in the event would WANT me, an outsider, to join, and immediatly begin to change things, well, I think thats the sort of thing that has gotten it where it is now.
bottom line, how much time do I want to invest in even trying this event when I struggle to get any meaningfull assistance or answers.

Just to be clear, AFTER the whole thread ran its course, and I became discouraged, I did recieve some personal emails with decent answer, but no one addressed the original question, that being the rules say one thing, and I am told them MEAN something else entirely,,
I hope carrier continues on ,, in one form or another, perhaps I will be motivated enough by this non official class in the NW to try it. time will tell

john vlna · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2010, 02:22:42 PM »

Mark,
I am sorry your questions didn't get answered. These message boards are like that, they often get sidetracked in to a complaint session.

Nostalgia uses pre- slider rules and it didn't catch on. East of the Mississippi the only contest that I know of is at the NATS. There may not be a large number of eligible designs, but there are enough both in profile and scale. I had no problem finding one for all three classes. All the Nostalgia planes I build also have slider so they can be used as AMA planes. I simply lock it for nostalgia competition.

My point is if you don't currently fly the event then how can you (the big general you out there) be against the rules. Join the NCS, fly carrier and then see what you think of the rules. As I said in an earlier post, when the rules changed the people that didn't want to use a slider and hang the plane probably left anyway. I came into carrier 15 years after the rules change, and the current rules are all I have ever used, except nostalgia which I also fly. By the way I don't remember anyone ever proposing to change the rule during the AMA rules cycle, in the last 20 years. Am I wrong? Joe will know.

I fly carrier and I don't have a problem with the rules.

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2010, 02:52:53 PM »

Quote from: Joe Just on October 25, 2010, 06:54:49 PM

<snip>
Despite some reservations I am going to build at least 2 new planes for the NW .40 Profile event. Only 2 available engines can be used, the OS.40FP or the Tower >40. No sliders, muffler pressure allowed, the rest of the AMA rules as they are with minor changes in Aircraft perimeters.

Hmmm... Not everyone has a shelf full of "old" .40FP's. The only place to procure one nowadays is eBay or a fellow Clubmember. Then it's a crap shoot trying to get a "good" one. .40LA's should be included, they're functionally identical with many interchangeable parts. Interesting Class...puts emphasis on the airframe and flying skills.

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2010, 03:27:03 PM »

I went back to the latest NCS Top 20 list and expanded a bit on Joe Just's analysis. According to the current list, fifty (50) different people have posted scores across all thirteen (13) events. So...unless there are additional names below the Top 20 for AMA Profile and NCS .15 Profile the reality is that only 50 people in the whole country are currently active in Navy Carrier.

The more I think about things, the more I am now convinced that there is absolutely nothing that can be "tweaked" in the rules to return Carrier to any semblance of its former glory. About the only thing that might work is to turn back the clock to the beginning and that ain't gonna to happen. I should clarify one thing. My points apply only to the AMA classes. The NCS classes are nice but the official AMA events are the only ones that count. The thing is, no matter what, the basics can't change. There's a simulated carrier deck, a take-off, fly fast, fly slow, and make an arrested landing. People either want to do that with a C/L model or they don't.

The issue isn't with the rules. It's with other things, like engines. It isn't possible to expect growth when the top performing engines can only be had on the secondary market, like eBay, if at all.

Mike Callas · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2010, 04:00:19 PM »

I doubt prospective new carrier flyers are reading thru the minutia in the rule book or these boards.

I went from stunt plane newbie to carrier newbie.
The reason I wanted to get into carrier was watching the Socal guys having a bunch of fun, hooping and hollering with excitement at the Hi Johnson contest three weeks ago.
The guys weren't harping on each other over 60 deg, or sliders, or electric vs nuclear power. They were helping the other guy get ready for his flight, while questioning their manhood and mental capacity. AKA having fun.

Changing a rule here or there won't bring new guys out (maybe a former flyer). Demonstrating carrier flying at a contest or a spontaneous gathering at the local flying field or school or donating a old carrier plane to someone just might.

Mike

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #23 on:** October 26, 2010, 06:14:32 PM »

Just so there is not mistaking my intent, I have no problem with the rules, none, I will fly to the rules just as I do in Stunt, Racing, and RC Pylon racing. However, I am a competative guy and I want to FOLLOW the rules . My problem is that I could not get a clear interpretation of the rules as they are written,,

I do plan on trying the new class, I have an FP 40. I see New in the box FP 40s on ebay every time I search for them. They are a much better engine than the LA 40 power and performance wise. As a matter of discussion, I believe that the LA 40 is no longer being made, I beleive that now the option is the LA 46, but I could be wrong, and not willing to research it at this point since its not really valid for the proposed NW event..
I hope I do enjoy the challange enough to pursue it, maybe it will give me another event to fly at the regionals,, since thats one of the only contests now for carrier. I believe perhaps, Chehalis runs carrier except my understanding is they cant fly without mufflers,, ?

john vlna · « **Reply #24 on:** October 26, 2010, 06:20:53 PM »

AMA rules allow mufflers but they are not required. Fuel is limited to 10% if a muffler is used.

Local unofficial rules can be anything check first.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #25 on:** October 26, 2010, 07:12:33 PM »

FWIW: My guess is that if you cleared it with the event organizer he would allow you to enter an LA-40 as long as you used the stock muffler. That is the positive response that I received when I inquired about the possibility of entering with a stock FP-35 as all of my FP-40's have been modified for stunt. I would like to see this common sense, unofficial event take-off and will promote it in my C/L neighborhood.

Wayne J. Buran · « **Reply #26 on:** October 26, 2010, 08:26:16 PM »

Quote from: john vlna on October 26, 2010, 06:20:53 PM

AMA rules allow mufflers but they are not required. Fuel is limited to 10% if a muffler is used.

Local unofficial rules can be anything check first.

Hey John, what was the logic of limiting the fuel to 10% if you are using a muffler? Dont understand that one at all.
Wayne

Dave Rolley · « **Reply #27 on:** October 26, 2010, 08:33:07 PM »

In my opinion...

The reason skill classes work for stunt is, except for beginner, the rules are the same. The pilot's skill is the determining factor which class the individual fits within. The scores don't necessarily divide classes. Some folks settle into a class, others move up through the classes. I don't know if folks move from a higher to lower class. From the outside looking in, it appears to work fairly well and peer pressure seems to be the "enforcement" mechanism.

In carrier we have multiple classes to choose from. Someone earlier in the thread indicated 13. While the scoring is the same (high, low, landing, and scale), that's 13 different sets of aircraft or participant rules. I'm beginning to wonder, could we get by with 3 classes again? 15 profile, 36 (or 40) profile, and a scale class (no, I don't know what engine should be. I still have OPS 65s nib).

I used to fly sliders and my top profile scores were in the 240 range. So a far cry from today's models and techniques. I'm not interested in 4 minute low speeds. But I'd love to compete with a group of folks that were working, like me, to break 250 for the first time.

Maybe the dividing line between the skill classes should be based on low speed times rather than total score. After all, that is where the skill difference is most apparent. I don't know what the candidate times should be. A vintage 35 profile model with fixed leadouts can be coaxed beyond 2 minutes without hanging. How about up to 2.5 or 3 minutes, up to 4 minutes, and up to 5 minutes, and over 5 minutes as the boundaries for 4 skill classes.

With 3 events and 4 skill classes there would plenty of opportunity for competition!

Dave Rolley

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #28 on:** October 26, 2010, 08:45:31 PM »

John,
the flying site requires muffled engines only,, remember this is not an official event, and local rules are what are controlling it..
http://flyinglines.org/rules.nwsport40.carrier.html

john vlna · « **Reply #29 on:** October 26, 2010, 09:16:02 PM »

Mark,
Nothing wrong with mufflers, I often use them. This event sounds like a larger model version of 15 carrier with a Skyray twist.
john

john vlna · « **Reply #30 on:** October 27, 2010, 12:27:09 PM »

Wayne,
As far as I know the 10% Muffler rule happened because there was never an agreement on what was a muffler, but everyone did agree that we needed to allow mufflers. So after years of discussion someone came up with the idea that any exhaust extention that exceeded the current rule (3" measured from the cylinder center) could be used. Since that included tuned pipes the 10% fuel restriction was added. It is probably an unnecessary rule, most people using a muffler probably aren't burning high nitro anyway. And a pipe is real hard to get to work for low speed, although it can be done because I have done it.