Author Topic: Carrier Qualified P-51 (Read 2065 times)

Clancy Arnold · « **on:** January 21, 2010, 06:00:24 AM »

You old time Navy Carrier fliers probably allready know this.
I was reading the Wikipedia on the P-51Mustang and came across this paragraph:

On 15 November 1944, a navalized P-51D-5-NA, 414017, started flight tests from the deck of the carrier Shangri-La. This Mustang had been fitted with an arrestor hook, which was attached to a reinforced bulkhead behind the tail wheel opening; the hook was housed in a streamlined position under the rudder fairing and could be released from the cockpit. The tests showed that the Mustang could be flown off the carrier deck without the aid of a catapult, using a flap setting of 20° down and 5° of up elevator. Landings were found to be easy, and, by allowing the tail wheel to contact the deck before the main gear, the aircraft could be stopped in a minimum distance.[

Is this sufficient documentation to fly a P-51 in Navy Carrier?
Clancy

Paul Smith · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2010, 07:55:21 AM »

The Navy liked big air-cooled radials and hated water-cooled V-blocks.

Bell made a futile attempt to sell the P-39 to the Navy.

North American took a similar unsuccessful shot at selling the P-51.

It has been claimed that the Me-109 (another streamlined water-cooled design) would have been used on a German carrier if they ever built one. The weakest case of all.

These single prototypes might be winners in carrier because they're a lot more streamlined than GENUINE main stream Navy Carrier planes that were actually flown off carriers in large numbers.

I guess somebody can prove that the MO-1, a light observation plane, made a takeoff and landing from a carrier (just like a Piper Cub, Lysander, or any other STOL plane could have). But that type of subject clearly circumvents the challenge of getting a high performance aircraft off from and onto a carrier deck.

The Mustang, Airabonita, and MO-1 are all accepted as carrier-legal, but they're still cheater designs that side step the challenge of getting a real navy carrier design to score well. I did not say "they're easy to build". It's just that they're on the fringe of legality and potentally better-scoring than the originally intended subjects.

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2010, 08:59:39 AM »

There are other published references, including photographs, to the Navy P-51 carrier trials that can be found on the web.

John Blum published a construction article in the June 1967 issue of American Modeler, pg.27. It is a Class I model. AMA Plans Service has the plan, # 30543. Some were built in the day, but it didn't offer any particular competitive advantage. The Class I models all were built about as small as possible and still fit a .40 engine.

The Australians have a great web site that has a number of mag articles on carrier models, including the P-51. Click on the main link and then navigate 'till you get there...http://clamf.aerosports.net.au/

Bob

john e. holliday · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2010, 11:50:00 AM »

I have plans for all three designs. There was plenty of proof of carrier trials and actual carrier take off/landings. They would be great for Nostalgia Carrier and getting back into carrier. Now if someone would read the rules they were not cheater airplanes. They were much more strict in processing back then. Even measuring the width of the nose on MO-1's to make sure it was right deminsion. I also remember a design that an official was not going to allow because he thought wing fillets were to big. Entrant had to file protest with all the documentation to get his flights in at that NATS. I beleive that is one of the demises of carrier as some were too strict.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2010, 04:05:08 PM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on January 21, 2010, 07:55:21 AM

The Navy liked big air-cooled radials and hated water-cooled V-blocks.

Curtiss sold the Navy V-12's for 20 years.

Bell made a futile attempt to sell the P-39 to the Navy.

The FL-1 was in no way a P-39 and there wasn't one intercahngable part besides the engine and reduction gearbox.

North American took a similar unsuccessful shot at selling the P-51.

The Navy bought and elected to do the sea trials on the P-51, not NAA. NAA people helped design the mods andthe Navy made the mods and the Navy flew the airplane because they thought it's range that was 5 times that of any Navy shipboard airplane might be of help if the war went on past when it thankfully did. The airplane flew all of it's sea trials successfully and the test pilot felt it was a usable airplane but ultimately it wasn't needed.

It has been claimed that the Me-109 (another streamlined water-cooled design) would have been used on a German carrier if they ever built one. The weakest case of all.

I agree, but at least 10 Me-109T's were built and operated as land planes during the war.

These single prototypes might be winners in carrier because they're a lot more streamlined than GENUINE main stream Navy Carrier planes that were actually flown off carriers in large numbers.

With single cylinder model engines sticking out into the wind there can be little doubt that this premise is folly.

I guess somebody can prove that the MO-1, a light observation plane, made a takeoff and landing from a carrier (just like a Piper Cub, Lysander, or any other STOL plane could have). But that type of subject clearly circumvents the challenge of getting a high performance aircraft off from and onto a carrier deck.

Yeah, i hate 'em too, but at least in the 60's and 70's they were a lot more detailed and scale like.

The Mustang, Airabonita, and MO-1 are all accepted as carrier-legal, but they're still cheater designs that side step the challenge of getting a real navy carrier design to score well. I did not say "they're easy to build". It's just that they're on the fringe of legality and potentally better-scoring than the originally intended subjects.

No way that they are any more suited to winning than a Sterling Guardian, Roberts Corsair or any individual designers ship. I believe your strong opinions are, as usual, all wet.

afml · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2010, 07:40:02 PM »

Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shown here is a P-51D Mustang about to take-off from the deck of USS Shangri La circa November 1944. The aircraft made several arrested landings and catapult take-offs from the ship. The Mustang was one of a variety of aircraft evaluated for possible carrier use during the war.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=15856&cat=546&si=p-51&perpage=40&sortby=f

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=1813&cat=546&si=p-51&perpage=40&sortby=f

http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/naval/naval.htm

Oh! Don't forget the C-130!!! HONEST!

http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/01/19/flightdeck-friday-flat-top-oddities

"Tight lines!"

Wes

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2010, 08:30:42 PM »

Not to get off track here but there is no doubt that the P-51 is legal for carrier and can be entered in Nostalgia Carrier. However, as there is no proof of it being modified and flown as a carrier model during the era I wouldn't count on getting the 20 historic model points that Nostalgia Carrier allows.

david smith · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2010, 10:41:59 PM »

Quote

Re: Sterling profile mustang elligible for Nostaslgia carrier?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »

When did this kit come out?

As for mustangs in general John Vlna flew one at the Nats this year in Class II. It was one of Great Planes RC combat ARF's. With some work it might fly alright and if you could just be consistent and get high, low, and landing you would probably place with it. AND IT IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN AN MO-1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2010, 06:47:19 AM »

Quote from: Pete Cunha on January 27, 2010, 08:30:42 PM

Not to get off track here but there is no doubt that the P-51 is legal for carrier and can be entered in Nostalgia Carrier. However, as there is no proof of it being modified and flown as a carrier model during the era I wouldn't count on getting the 20 historic model points that Nostalgia Carrier allows.

Re: Reply # 2

John Blum published a Class I P-51 design in the June 1967 American Modeler. The cut-off date for Historic Bonus points in NCS Nostalgia Carrier is January 1, 1978. This design meets all of the stated requirements and is eligible for the bonus. By the way, the NCS rules have just been revised. The Historic Bonus is now 100 points.

As for the Sterling P-51: As a Profile it is eligible for the Historic Bonus. I don't know when the kit was introduced, but it was prior to 1960, the date when I began this never ending story.

Bob

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2010, 09:09:59 AM »

Hi Bob: My statement disallowing the Sterling P-51 is based on and interpretation of the Nostalgia Carrier Rules. True, they give 20 points to designs "Published or manufactured before Jan 1, 1978". The Sterling P-51 defintely fits into that catagory. However, they go on to state "No mods of original design are permitted except ones below" One of these is: "Tailhook and its location may be changed". Note, it is "changed", not added. Since the Sterling P-51 was not originally designed with a tailhook it would have to be added therefore making it ineligible by my interpretation of the rules.

I hope I am proved wrong. I "manufactured" and flew a profile carrier Sterling P-51 in the early 70's. Unfortunately I have no pics or documentation of it. If I did,it there would be no question of it being a historical model. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who did this but until some documentation is produced, a strict interpretation of the rules disquailfies it for the 20 bonus points. Of course, an event director could always interpret it differently.

On another personal note: I have a Goldberg Buster that has been modified to look like an F4-F. I have entered it in a few Nostalgia events and have yet to be awarded the 20 bonus points. Sure, the Buster is pre-1978 and like the Sterling P-51 there were probably a few flown as carrier planes during the era, but no documentation, no points...darn.

Bob Heywood · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2010, 10:12:58 AM »

OK...Pete,

In my humble opinion you are way, way over interpreting that rule.

During the Classic Era that Nostalgia seeks to recreate a whole lot of basic profile models were adapted to fly Carrier. The Nostalgia Rules were NEVER, NEVER intended to disallow those planes.

I have seen an absolutely stock Buster, covered in blue Monokote, fly Profile at one of the Chicago NATS. I used a Ringmaster wing to make a Wildcat and a VooDoo wing to make one as well. They were both flown at NATS. The VooDoo one flew at the 1976 NATS in Dayton. Dick Perry launched the thing. All of these can earn the 100 point bonus.

Bob

Thomas Wilk · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2010, 06:14:29 PM »

Here is my list of pre 1978 carrier articles and plans published in the magazines.

AD2 Skyraider    1951 Air Trails Jn p31    44.00   308.00   .60i     Smith, S Cal
F8F-2 Bearcat    1952 Air Trails Nv p28    36.50   248.50   .60i     Smith, S Cal
Carrier Pigeon     1952 Flying Models Ap p14    30.00   150.00   .19-.35   Cayton, Earl L
SO3C-1 Seagull     1953 Model Airplane News Ag p18    51.00   508.00   .29i     Ealy, Dick
OS2U-1 Kingfisher    1954 Model Airplane News Mr p10    38.00   601.00   .29-.35   Moynihan, Jim
AF-2 Guardian    1955 Flying Models Ap p9     30.00   138.00   .19-.60   Dulaitis, David V
AF-2 Guardian    1955 Model Airplane News Fb p16    28.00   133.25   .35    Domizi, David
AF-2 Guardian    1957 Model Airplane News Fb p12    44.25   365.00   .40    Moir, George
TBD-1 Devastator     1959 American Modeler Fb p28    33.75   198.60   .35    Dulaitis, David V
F4U-7 Corsair    1960 Flying Models Ja p8     35.00   242.00   .35    Palanek, Paul J
F2A-2 Buffalo    1960 Model Airplane News Jl p12    34.50   214.50   .45    Clements, Vern
F7F Tigercat     1961 American Modeler Jl p29    32.50   203.00   .35x2    Randall, Ray
Safire     1961 Model Airplane News Annl p59   24.00   367.25   .29    Clements, Vern
F7F Tigercat     1962 American Modeler Annl p50    32.50   203.00   .35x2    Randall, Rayn
AF-2 Guardian    1962 American Modeler Fb p28    30.75   149.25   .29-.45   Netzeband, Bill F Jr
Martin Mauler     1964 Model Airplane News Ap p17    30.00   175.00   .35    Sieverling, Clair
AF-2 Guardian    1965 American Modeler Annl p44    30.50   140.00   .45    Netzeband, Bill F Jr
AD Skyraider     1965 American Modeler Annl p75    44.00   319.00   .60i     Smith, S Cal
TBD-1 Devastator     1965 American Modeler My-Jn p44   32.50   192.50   .40    Blum, John D
XTB2D-1 Skypirate    1966 Model Airplane News Fb p11    40.00   200.00   .60    Mallon, Bernard
P-51 Mustang     1967 American Modeler Jn p26    28.00   134.00   .40    Blum, John D
XFL-1 Airabonita     1967 Model Airplane News Dc p11    33.30   205.00   .40    Reeves, Chuck W
XPC-1 Starjet    1968 American Aircraft Modeler Ap p24    36.00   341.00   .35    Mottin, Howard C
Martin MO-1     1969 American Aircraft Modeler Ag p27    28.25   143.50   .40    Gerber, D H & J D
Miracle Worker     1969 American Aircraft Modeler Annl p34   40.00   320.00   .36    Blum, John D
Dingus     1969 American Aircraft Modeler Fb p26    30.00   300.00   .40    Netzeband, Bill F Jr
AD Skyraider     1969 American Aircraft Modeler Ja p25    35.00   200.25   .40-.60   Mottin, Howard C
AD-1 Skyraider     1970 American Aircraft Modeler Jn p27    34.00   224.50   .40-.60   Hulick, Carlin
AD-1 Skyraider     1970 American Aircraft Modeler Jn p27    34.00   224.50   .36    Hulick, Carlin
Short Seamew "1"     1970 Areo Modeler Mr p134   35.00   248.00   .40    Reeves, Mike
Short Seamew "2"     1970 Areo Modeler Mr p134   44.00   322.00   .60    Reeves, Mike
SB2C-1 Helldiver     1971 American Aircraft Modeler Jl p26    30.50   162.00   .15    Schaaf, Paul H Jr
Westland Wyvern    1971 Model Airplane News My p11    28.36   152.00   .40    Martinez, Marvin R
Westland Wyvern    1971 Model Airplane News My p11    34.00   235.00   .60    Martinez, Marvin R
Ryan FR-1 Fireball    1971 Model Airplane News Sp p11    41.00   297.40   .35    Felton, Chuck A
TBD-1 Devastator     1972 American Aircraft Modeler Jl p26    29.00   140.00   .40    Baltes, Roland H
F5U Skimmer    1972 American Aircraft Modeler Jn p34    25.25   518.75   .35    Scott, Frank H
OV-10 Bronco     1972 American Aircraft Modeler Ot p30    40.00   285.70   .29x2    LaBarge, Jim W
A-4P Skyhawk     1973 American Aircraft Modeler Ap p28    32.50   223.75   .35    Perry, Richard
Mo-Bipe    1973 American Aircraft Modeler Ja p42    36.00   319.20   .36    Gerber, D H & J
Firebrand    1973 Areo Modeler My p248   34.00   173.00   .35-.60   Herbert, Eric
Max-Im     1973 Model Airplane News Ag p23    30.00   300.00   .36    Stambaugh, Tim
Martin MO-1     1973 Model Airplane News Fb p11    38.00   300.00   .36    Higley, Harold
Square Cat     1973 Model Builder Jl p39    36.00   322.75   .36    James, John
Carrier Pigeon     1974 Model Airplane News Ag p11    35.50   319.00   .36    Downs, Dennis
AF-2 Guardian    1974 Model Airplane News Mr p17    33.00   171.25   .60    Johnson, Bill M
F-4 Phantom    1974 Model Builder Ag p26    37.25   306.00   .36    Jolly, J & Frazee, B
Condor     1975 Model Airplane News Dc p17    30.00   305.00   .35    Aloise, C E & C A
Short Seamew S.B.6    1975 Model Aviation Jl p14    28.00   142.00   .40    Perry, Richard
Trager     1976 Flying Models Jl p38    32.00   312.00   .35    Brown, Russell L
Super Mo-Ho    1976 Model Airplane News Ag p11    38.00   362.00   .36    Higley, Harold
Sea Fury     1976 Model Airplane News My p17    33.50   240.00   .60    Boss, Bill
C6N1 Myrt    1976 Model Aviation My p50    34.00   205.00   .60    Baltes, Roland H
AF-2 Guardian    1976 Model Builder Ap p33    38.00   306.00   .36    Melton, Bill
A1-E Skyraider     1977 Model Airplane News Fb p11    30.00   144.50   .40    Martinez, Marvin R
SBD Dauntless    1977 Model Builder Ag p44    30.25   131.75   .40    Baltes, Roland H

Tom Wilk

Author Topic: Carrier Qualified P-51 (Read 2065 times)

Clancy Arnold

Carrier Qualified P-51

Paul Smith

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Bob Heywood

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

john e. holliday

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Chris McMillin

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

afml

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Balsa Butcher

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

david smith

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Bob Heywood

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Balsa Butcher

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Bob Heywood

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51

Thomas Wilk

Re: Carrier Qualified P-51