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Author Topic: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?  (Read 4304 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Hello,
4" bellcranks seem to be the most popular for larger models, perhaps because you can simply buy them from Brodak.

Brodak sells one 4" bellcrank in which the arm length is ~0.8" (Item#BB-374) and there is only one pushrod hole and one 4" bellcrank (from SIG, Item#SH-754) in which there are two pushrod holes in the arm (~0.8" and 1.0").

If the pushrod from the bellcrank arm connects to the highest hole in the heavy duty flap horn from Brodak (1.3"), the elevator's pushrod usually connects 0.75" hole in the flaps horn to the 1.0" hole in the elevator's horn.

The pushrod from the b-crank arm and the elevator's pushrod may connect to the same flaps horn hole.
In this case, there are more choices to select the flaps to elevator's ratio but they are pre-defined by the holes position and only some ratios are practically in use while flying the pattern.

4.33" bellcrank (from Yatsenko) is also in use. There are also Yatsenko's adjustable nylon horns that allow for a very fine adjustment of the flaps to elevator's ratio. There is Igor's logarithmic flaps horn - interesting idea but it must be machined and is somewhat complex to build and setup properly.

Certain people build the customized bellcranks and horns having the geometry that suit them.

Lastly, there are choices of the handle lines spacing.
1:1 ratio between handle and b-crank is commonly used but there are some people that use slightly different ratio, custom build handles etc.

I trying to decide what to use in my large planes (one with Ro-Jett 76, one electric) in order to have the wide range of adjustments.

Yatsenko's b-crank and horns seem to provide the widest range of adjustments but some say that 4.33" b-crank must have 4.33" handle lines spacing.
This means the custom build handle as Brodak's handles I have do not provide such spacing.

Perhaps it is time for me to start building the customized handles?

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated as always.

Regards,

Matt

 

 





 

 
   

Offline TDM

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 08:50:40 AM »
Really any of the 4in bellcranks will do fine. Some have the the lead out attachment in line with the pivot point some are bias a little to have a self centering kind of layout where the lead out holes are a little forward or backwards in relationship with the pivot point. they all work well. Pick one and run with it.
As for handle spacing that is for you to decide. Handle spacing is for making the model respond to your impute according to your flying stile. If the model is too touchy then close the spacing and vice versa. I flew Ken Tysor Strega a long tine ago and I found it scary and uncontrollable for me it was that touchy but he likes it and it scared me to bits. So what is good for you may be crazy for someone else. I am completely opposite side of the spectrum when it comes to handle setup. You must find what works for you.
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »
Here is how I'd look at the problem.  You are moving the control surfaces via flexible control lines, the flex coming from line elasticity and the shape the lines assume from the air blowing on them.  Thus you want to have a lot of leverage over the control surface hinge moment.  This leverage is differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection.  To get that, you need a big bellcrank that moves through a large angle.  I assume that the ratio of differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection (per degree of elevator deflection for the Igor system) should be constant over the range of travel.  To get that, you need to do a three-dimensional analysis of the control system kinematics.  You can get that constant slope of differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection either with a tilted flap control horn or a straight-up-and-down flap control horn, by the way. 

I'd pick bellcrank size to minimize the structural loss to the wing from the sweep of leadouts considering all possible leadout positions at the wing tip.  You won't have to rotate a 5" bellcrank through as big an angle as you would a 4" bellcrank to get the same differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection.  My current dog has a 4" bellcrank that rotates nearly 90 degrees in either direction.   I plan to print a 5" bellcrank for the next one. 

Handle spacing is a dependent variable.  Pick what you need for a given airplane.  You can't overcome a deficiency in leverage over control surface hinge moment in the airplane by picking a handle spacing.  I'd pick a handle spacing that feels good, per Dorin's advice above.  There's probably some physiologically optimal handle deflection, but that's not my department.  However, if you end up with a handle spacing of less than 4" or so for an airplane with flaps, you probably don't have enough differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection.   

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 06:02:35 PM »
What Howard said, mostly.  I'd figure that +/- 45 degrees of motion at the bellcrank is the useful range, and at that range of motion, for a typical modern stunter, you should see about +/-20 degrees at the flaps and (initially) somewhat more at the elevator.  I can't remember what level you fly at, but given the level of the questions -- you're worrying too much.  Put the thing together and go fly.

I'm not sure why, but I tend to fly with much tighter spacing at the handle than anyone around me -- even on planes that were set up by better pilots than me and just handed down.  So, as Howard said, get everything else working right and then set the handle spacing to suit you.  If the response is too "dead" and you can't fix it satisfactorily by moving the CG back, then consider a custom handle.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 08:19:28 PM »
If the response is too "dead" and you can't fix it satisfactorily by moving the CG back, then consider a custom handle.

Just as you can't fix a control leverage problem with handle spacing, you probably shouldn't try to overcome a handle constraint by moving the airplane CG. 
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 08:43:17 PM »
  You can get that constant slope of differential leadout travel per degree of control deflection either with a tilted flap control horn or a straight-up-and-down flap control horn, by the way. 
So how is it done with a straight-up-and-down flap control horn ?  You have dwg or pictures ?
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 12:23:41 AM »
So how is it done with a straight-up-and-down flap control horn ?  You have dwg or pictures ?

I have a program that figures the geometry. By fiddling with stuff like bellcrank location and bellcrank output arm pivot position, you can get most any reasonable flap control horn to yield a linear, symmetrical response. I’ll send you a copy of the program when I get back to where my computer is.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 11:05:28 AM »
Just as you can't fix a control leverage problem with handle spacing, you probably shouldn't try to overcome a handle constraint by moving the airplane CG.

Well, yes, but I'm not even sure what ballpark the guy isn't in.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 11:07:03 AM »
I have a program similar to Howard's that I got from Larry Cunningham. I posted results and trends that I graphed from its output a few years ago. The response from one fellow was, "Huh." So I won't repeat that. However, one surprising outcome of running this program was that it appears that the most "orderly" (e.g. rods and horns perpendicular at neutral) looking setups do not produce the most linear or symmetrical outputs at the flaps and elevators. You can choose a "useful range" of flap deflections where asymmetry (differences between up- and down deflections for the same handle deflection) is within a fraction of a degree, but past that range, "up" and "down" deflections diverge more rapidly. These spreadsheets seem to me to be the only way to make control output uniform. That having been said though, we fly our planes without a lot of trouble in that regard anyway. I think we compensate for asymmetrical controls almost automatically. Just don't expect the best looking control geometries to be the most symmetrical. I think the angles generated by the bellcrank arm and flap rod are the main culprits, but are compensated by a bit of asymmetry elsewhere.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 01:03:25 PM »
Well yeah, if you raise the bellcrank up enough in a computer program you can use a straight flap horn. 

Maybe. I always center the bellcrank vertically, and I’ve never needed to do anything weird to get the system linear. The most useful parameter to fiddle with has been bellcrank output arm angle.

One important thing is that we don’t care about the relationship between the bellcrank movement and anything else. All that matters is the relationship between leadout movement and control surface deflection.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 01:24:40 PM »
These spreadsheets seem to me to be the only way to make control output uniform. That having been said though, we fly our planes without a lot of trouble in that regard anyway. I think we compensate for asymmetrical controls almost automatically.

We may not want uniformity. I flew a plane that came in second at a world champs that seemed a lot more sensitive in up
than down. That would give more leverage at the top of the hourglass. Still, I make the control response of my planes a straight line. I have a notion to make a machine that measures leadout and control surface travel and take it to the Nats and measure a bunch of planes.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 10:31:38 PM »
Well yeah, if you raise the bellcrank up enough in a computer program you can use a straight flap horn.

To the best of my recollection, my program actually tells me that this combination doesn't give the most symmetrical flap deflection without other compensation asymmetry. It's been quite a while, but I did run such numbers through the speadsheet. Perhaps Howard will comment further on that. If I get some time after the holiday, perhaps I can look into that. Howard's approach, linking the leadout motion has to be more valid than mine, which only compares control surface deflection to bellcrank rotation with standard bellcrank configuration (arms at right angles).

SK

Offline John Watson

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 07:44:22 AM »
I just get these thoughts so bear with me please. Anyone tried solid wire leadouts?

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 01:47:57 PM »
I just get these thoughts so bear with me please. Anyone tried solid wire leadouts?

Yes.  Some still use them.  There's pros and cons, but most prefer cables.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 02:39:44 PM »
Anyone tried solid wire leadouts?

They were more popular in bygone days than they are now.  It is simple to assume that the leadout wire makes a sharp corner at the wingtip.  A solid wire would be another spring, which would at least make the analysis more difficult. 

I think people who still use them like to hear the rattle on the way to the flying field.  It reminds them of the old days.
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Offline Jason Greer

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 05:11:47 PM »
Howard,

Do you mind sharing what type of filament you are you using to print your bellcranks? 

Jason
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 08:34:30 PM »
Do you mind sharing what type of filament you are you using to print your bellcranks? 

ABS, Hatchbox brand, I think.  I haven't optimized them yet, but a preliminary 5-incher took a surprising 150 lb. pull, so I think they may be viable.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Jason Greer

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Re: What bellcranks? What control system geometry? What handle spacing?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 09:46:31 PM »
Thanks for sharing. Shannon suprised me with a 3D printer for my birthday last month. Now I’m spending more time playing with it rather than building and flying stunt!
El Dorado, AR
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