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Author Topic: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint  (Read 2998 times)

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« on: June 04, 2018, 09:25:48 AM »
I cannot seem to find a connector that will allow me to put a 4-40 "nut" on the end of a carbon fiber pushrod to use a turnbuckle adjustment.  I have been using a makeup using a blind nut held on by copper wire and lots of epoxy but it looks like "crap".  Does anybody know where I cam fine the endpoint I am looking for?

Ken
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 10:07:15 AM »
I cannot seem to find a connector that will allow me to put a 4-40 "nut" on the end of a carbon fiber pushrod to use a turnbuckle adjustment.  I have been using a makeup using a blind nut held on by copper wire and lots of epoxy but it looks like "crap".  Does anybody know where I cam fine the endpoint I am looking for?

Ken

Do you know who Tom Morris is?

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 10:29:56 AM »
Do you know who Tom Morris is?

CB

Or put more politely -- check out Tom Morris, he's got a forum in the Vendor's Corner section.

Or make your own.  I started by buying used arrow shafts from a local archery shop for $1 a pop, then just bought a bunch of 6mm tube from a kite shop (I can't remember which one, but it has "wind" in the name -- that should narrow it down!).  I turn end-pieces that fit just inside the tube; with a 6mm shaft there's room in the end-piece for a clearance hole for a 4-40 socket-head screw.  I put epoxy on the screw-head, screw it tight into the end, then epoxy the end onto the pushrod.  It makes for a nice, good-looking, permanent end.  I haven't had one fail yet, in several aircraft -- the ones in the pictures here have over 500 flights on them; I've got other aircraft that have suffered multiple crashes with no damage to the pushrods or ends.


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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 11:27:52 AM »
Do you know who Tom Morris is?

CB

Yes, I have ordered several systems from him.  I have tried to get responses to emails with no success on custom items.  He does not list a LH endpoint or a turnbuckle rod.  I have one that looks like it came from him but getting it to twist inside cramped quarters was a bummer.  The DuBro turnbuckle has the same problem. The wrench part is just too small and the torque on the other end made it "pop" instead of turning.  By having the turnbuckle at one end you can hold the ball link and turn the buckle without all the stress on the other end.  No problem in a built up but it looks crummy on a profile.  I would move it to the other end under the stab but some idiot put the control horn too close to the fuselage.

Thanks - Ken
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 11:37:54 AM »
Or put more politely -- check out Tom Morris, he's got a forum in the Vendor's Corner section.

Or make your own.  I started by buying used arrow shafts from a local archery shop for $1 a pop, then just bought a bunch of 6mm tube from a kite shop (I can't remember which one, but it has "wind" in the name -- that should narrow it down!).  I turn end-pieces that fit just inside the tube; with a 6mm shaft there's room in the end-piece for a clearance hole for a 4-40 socket-head screw.  I put epoxy on the screw-head, screw it tight into the end, then epoxy the end onto the pushrod.  It makes for a nice, good-looking, permanent end.  I haven't had one fail yet, in several aircraft -- the ones in the pictures here have over 500 flights on them; I've got other aircraft that have suffered multiple crashes with no damage to the pushrods or ends.

That is exactly what I am looking for.  I have a stock of target arrow shafts that I use for jigs, spars and fuselage stiffeners in profiles.  Since I use Morris controls I have never needed one for a pushrod.  Not sure but I think they are actually lighter.  Where do you get your LH bolts and tap?  The arrow shaft is thick enough that you could make a tiny strap wench to do the adjustments and that solves all of my problems!

I suppose I could still use the DuBro turnbuckle and make the shaft with 2 RH receptors.  FYI - he last post on the Tom Morris forum was in 2016.



Thanks - Ken
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 12:04:33 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Jim Mynes

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 12:56:01 PM »
You could use JB weld to glue 4-40 threaded rod in one end, and the Du-Bro turnbuckle in the other end with the LH thread exposed. Now you have a turnbuckle of any length you choose.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 01:14:10 PM »
That is exactly what I am looking for.  I have a stock of target arrow shafts that I use for jigs, spars and fuselage stiffeners in profiles.  Since I use Morris controls I have never needed one for a pushrod.  Not sure but I think they are actually lighter.  Where do you get your LH bolts and tap?  The arrow shaft is thick enough that you could make a tiny strap wench to do the adjustments and that solves all of my problems!

I suppose I could still use the DuBro turnbuckle and make the shaft with 2 RH receptors.  FYI - he last post on the Tom Morris forum was in 2016.

Sorry -- I was going lightly on the definition of "turnbuckle".  I just use RH thread on each end of the shaft, and remove the ball end from the horn to make adjustments.  I feel this is better, because in the unlikely event of a water landing the pushrod turning, it'll back out of one end just as much as it screws into the other.  I was going to send you to McMaster-Carr for stuff, but they don't have much LH stuff that small -- although they do have one LH 4-40 screw, if you dig for it.  It looks like MSC has left-hand dies but no screws, they should have suitable-sized drill rod and left-hand taps to match.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2018, 01:16:42 PM »
You could use JB weld to glue 4-40 threaded rod in one end, and the Du-Bro turnbuckle in the other end with the LH thread exposed. Now you have a turnbuckle of any length you choose.

Except that it will not turn without turning the entire rod which puts a lot of stress on the ball links.  With my setup up you only put pressure on one link.  I don't know about your planes but mine are very hard to twist if they have been in one position for very long and with the rolling action of the ball link it is really hard to fine tune unless you can hold both links and twist the rod at the same time.  I am quite happy with the functionality of what I do, that connection just looks like crap on a profile!

Ken
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2018, 01:23:42 PM »
Sorry -- I was going lightly on the definition of "turnbuckle".  I just use RH thread on each end of the shaft, and remove the ball end from the horn to make adjustments.  I feel this is better, because in the unlikely event of a water landing the pushrod turning, it'll back out of one end just as much as it screws into the other.  I was going to send you to McMaster-Carr for stuff, but they don't have much LH stuff that small -- although they do have one LH 4-40 screw, if you dig for it.  It looks like MSC has left-hand dies but no screws, they should have suitable-sized drill rod and left-hand taps to match.

Actually I use a RH-RH on the shaft male threads on one end , female on the other.  The turnbuckle goes on with the LH going into the ball link.  I can use the arrow shafts,  that is where all this carbon fiber stuff started anyway.  I just love your connectors.  Should look real slick!

Thanks - Ken
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Offline Curare

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 04:34:02 PM »
Except that it will not turn without turning the entire rod which puts a lot of stress on the ball links.  With my setup up you only put pressure on one link.  I don't know about your planes but mine are very hard to twist if they have been in one position for very long and with the rolling action of the ball link it is really hard to fine tune unless you can hold both links and twist the rod at the same time.  I am quite happy with the functionality of what I do, that connection just looks like crap on a profile!

Ken

You're right, it's not really pretty, but if as you say it's on a profile, then a double ended turnbuckle is not really required, as you can undo the ball link from the horn, and give it a turn to adjust it. If you're worried about putting undue stress on the pushrod, you can grab a section of threads with pliers or put a set of double nuts on there. A half turn of the ball link is not as coarse as you might be thinking!

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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 05:06:29 PM »
You're right, it's not really pretty, but if as you say it's on a profile, then a double ended turnbuckle is not really required, as you can undo the ball link from the horn, and give it a turn to adjust it. If you're worried about putting undue stress on the pushrod, you can grab a section of threads with pliers or put a set of double nuts on there. A half turn of the ball link is not as coarse as you might be thinking!

Simple is good!

Not Pretty is generous, I believe my words were "looks like 'Crap'". Actually it is only on the profile for testing.  In practice it will be buried in the tail behind an adjustment hatch where there is not room to remove the ball link without putting a hatch on both sides.  I guess it doesn't matter much what it looks like there.  I like the double nuts.  You don't ever want to grab onto a fiber rod with pliers.  Bottom line, it works and I like having the ease of adjustment in the field.  I just want to make it look better on the profile.

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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 05:33:00 PM »
Hobby shops and Tower Hobbies carry parts for RC cars, namely tie rod ends.  They come in various lengths and most are titanium.  There are some 4-40 but most are metric.  M3 is about right.  I've used them a couple of times.  They are a little pricey.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 06:15:34 PM »
Hobby shops and Tower Hobbies carry parts for RC cars, namely tie rod ends.  They come in various lengths and most are titanium.  There are some 4-40 but most are metric.  M3 is about right.  I've used them a couple of times.  They are a little pricey.

I might look into that.  The turnbuckles I am using came from the car stuff at Hobby Zone.  The same place that didn't know what a glow plug was.
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 08:25:21 PM »
I made up some pushrods using 3mm turnbuckles from Traxxas.  The local hobby shop had some carbon rod and the ID is a very close fit for the OD of the turnbuckle.  I roughed it up with 100 grit, cleaned it with acetone and glued it in using the IC-2000 rubberized CA from Bob Smith.  I slid an aluminum sleeve over the end as well.  A package of 3mm ball links from RC4WD is significantly less expensive than DuBro 4-40 ball links.

I got the idea for the Rubberized CA pushrods from the Q-40 /Q-500 RC racing site:  http://www.darrolcady.com/Carbon_Fiber/carbon_fiber.htm

I can't say if it's a good or bad method yet, but there is a lot of contact area for the glue to adhere to the turnbuckle and the ID of the carbon rod.  If anyone else has used this method, I would be interested in hearing others experience using the IC-2000 rubber toughened glue for pushrod use.  The old standby, JB Weld, has worked very effectively on pushrods for years, so I am not sure what to think. 

(I can say that the pushrod didn't break during the recent crashing of my plane outfitted using this method.  The plane came in basically from the top of the circle and continued into the ground, burying the engine up to the leading edge, shearing off a wing panel, bending the steel flap horn and breaking the flaps.  It didn't break either of the pushrods, however, which is a very unsatisfying consolation prize considering the damage to the plane...) 

« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 09:33:14 PM by Brent Williams »
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Offline James Holford

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 05:17:23 AM »
What about RSM's LH/RH stainless ends that epoxy over the carbon rods?


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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Turnbuckle pushrod endpoint
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2018, 06:11:04 AM »
What about RSM's LH/RH stainless ends that epoxy over the carbon rods?


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I tried that and it works great on a profile where you can realign the ball links after the twisting but would not work in a full fuselage where you couldn't see both links.  Now I am thinking that perhaps the ball links being twisted is not dangerous and I have solved another nonexistent problem!

However, I did find a solution.  A 1/2"x 3/16"  4-40 standoff fits perfectly in the end of an 1/4" arrow shaft.

Now I am looking for an 8-24 to 4-40 reducing post so I can use the standoff that is already in the arrow from the factory or an 8-24 ball link.  (Just kidding).

Thanks - Ken

Ken
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