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Building Tips and technical articles. => Building techniques => Topic started by: RC Storick on March 22, 2008, 04:27:42 PM
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First off I want to give you something to think about. Chrome plating. You ask why do I correlate that with paint? A chrome finish is only .0000005 inch thick. Makes you wonder why it looks so good. Thats right 50 Millionths of a inch thick. I think I have all the zeros in the right place? Anyway. The metal is buffed to a chrome like finish before plating. Most people think ( and I have had them ask) how do the keep the drips off? Plating is not a paint or a dip. Its a exchange of molecules.
What I am getting at is you paint job will only be as good as the prep! Hench the statement in my signature "The finish starts with the first piece of wood cut". When a artist paints a chrome piece of a car on canvas its not silver. Its a reflection of light and colors. Paint has an advantage it can be sanded after its applied, where as chrome can not.
So use the same materials from the start of finishing and keep things flat and neat. Sand and buff after final coat of clear and you will have a spectacular finish that you will be proud of.
One final thought. When you think you are done sanding start over again and do it once more. My SV 100 was a sanding nightmare. So I feel your pain! Photos soon..
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Roy DeCamera always told me that he was getting real tired of sanding and also I am going to have to put another coat of silver on, which meant he was going to have to sand some more. HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~>
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It pays as Roy got the top award this year again. DOC Holliday
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I would say, it's the secret to any paint job, "custom" or not. The better the surface you paint on, the better the outcome. That's just a fact.
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I have read several articles by great finishers. All say the same thing; Start with the first piece of wood and use lots, and lots of sandpaper. Only a few have ever really stated just how to use sandpaper. More to it than meets the eye.
Using the right grit and a hard backing for the paper keeps things flat and level. Granted there are many places where it must be curved, folded, etc, but get it smooth before applying the dope. I took more time than ever on my Knight and it came out almost like I wanted. The main thing is DON"T GET LAZY. Keep sanding, keep sanding until it is RIGHT. Hey, if I can do it, ya'll can do it. y1 <= #^ H^^
Now that you stated that, what grit do you start with and what do you end with. Do you wet sand. I have a million questions and I don't get Stunt News.
"Billy G" H^^
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Start with 80 grit, end up with 2000 grit if you're serious. Don't use 80 grit very much....just as a sub for razor plane, or not at all, if you don't need it. Rather quickly change to 120 or 180. The 280 or 320 should get you ready for covering, if you're covering the whole airframe. Here's a website that should help.
http://www.mikestools.com/3m-Sandpaper-Single-Sheets_1880.aspx?quot;%20title= (http://www.mikestools.com/3m-Sandpaper-Single-Sheets_1880.aspx?quot;%20title=) No, I don't know who Mike is.
Sanding boards and foam pads both have their uses. You'll have to figure out when to use which. You seldom want to use sandpaper without one or the other.
"Steel wool" is underutilized in our hobby...but get stainlesssteel wool. y1 Steve
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I use 30 gritt sometimes. and end up with 2000.
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I have a very good friend who always has a mirror finish on his planes, but he always had heavy planes in the past. And they didn't start out as heavy airframes, just the finish was heavy. He sanded a bunch on his panes, but he never knew to use a block! I couldn't believe it, but he had never known that a sanding block was necessary to flatten out the dope. He just used his hand all the time. This left too much dope on the plane! He now knows about sanding blocks......
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So true Ty, I got so tired of sanding on the Spitfire that I did as you suggest. I broke it down to sessions of sanding, then go work on another plane. Mainly it was holding this demented pooch of mine that broke up the sanding routine. DOC Holliday
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The other thing I would say is, yes, there are no secrets. But there are a lot of tricks and techniques that can be difficult to learn. At least when you get into more complicated schemes or materials. I've tried a lot of stuff that is sort of off the beaten path like using custom metallics or various pearls, candy colors, interference toners and such. There are a lot of pitfalls. Just ask me; I've fallen into most of them and screw up spectacularly on occasion.
Noting is quite so much fun as spending what feels like years sanding the airframe and prepping for the finish with filling and more, endless sanding only to royally screw up with the colors or clear coat. Then more sanding to take it off and do it again ... only to make a different mistake. I can give you reams on what not to do. I'm a little short yet on the correct procedure on some of this stuff. But I'm learning.
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Randy,
volumes can be written on what not to do, as you know,, and while its pretty easy to say there is "a right way" its much much harder to actually define what that way is. finishing is such a game of balance and nuance that to actually write a definitive paper on how to fiinish is basically nothing more than writing about what NOT to do and what to watch for. It does make sense however to oultine a series of guidlines that give parameters and key things to be aware of. I know based on my experience, just dealing with the varieties and methods to use say Pearls I could write a large book, and that only being covering my personal experience which is but the tip of the iceberg!
I have tried before to write something meaningfull just isolating application of color and keep ending up sounding like the ten commandments so I appreciate the effort it takes to attempt this. my encouragment to you for your continued efforts to share your knowledge,, and to others who try to do the same. I tend to want to stay out of the fray because I overcomplicate things some times. keep on keepin on my friend!
As Shultzie says, your only as good as your last gig,,,,,,,,
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Listening to you guys, I don't know how I ever finished an airplane......... but, as everyone knows, I am the *Old Blind Hog*. I get a pretty decent (according to others) finish on my planes and I take as little (no pun intended) time as possible.
Let's see....... fit all the parts as good as possible, sand, seal the wood with dope, sand, cover, fill the grain, sand, blocking coat, sand, final blocking coat, colors, clear, sand.
I may have to go to some iron on covering now, if it is that hard and complicated. All the answers here are starting to sound like a lot of the *gamesmanship* that used to go on about 40 years ago.
Wouldn't be so bad if I had not hung out with one of the top custom painters on the planet for a few years.......
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Bill,
We are talikng about using non-standard finishing stuff. If you are using Brodak paint, you're outline is fine. If you are using a relative simple paint schemes with no complicated taping or masking, should be relatively straight forward. Again, painting is as much art as science. Getting a "good" finish isn't too hard. Getting a spectacular finish is tough but doable. Getting a spectacular finish that's light takes a lot of experience and technique. Not much different than anything else. It's always the last 10% that takes 95% of the effort.
It's easy to overcomplicate this stuff and that will get you into trouble more often than not. Most of it is straight forward. How many planes have you finished that you spent at least as much time fixing mistakes as you spent doing the actual finish? Maybe for you not many. For me it's the standard operating procedure. But I'm always trying new stuff, new materials or just haven't got the experience yet to avoid a pitfall in a new technique. Were I just using standard materials and using more simple paint schemes, the quality of the finish would go up exponetially and be much easier to achieve. But I like to experiment (as does Mark) and there is a price to pay for that.
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Hi Randy,
I don't disagree at all. But, as you say, it can sound AWFULLY complicated at times. Now using a latex paint under a lacquer would probably yield some problems. Or trying to put nitrate over butyrate.... or having contaminations in the finish...... or using too much retarder....... if I were a beginner, I would probably be scared to pick up a can of any kind of paint and just use an iron on.
As to trying new stuff, I have tried about everything so far. Using basecoat/clearcoat finishes on airplanes when they first came out. Found out real quick that you didn't put dope over the Dupont Chromabase colors, but it goes over the clear just fine.
I maintain that if you use the same base materials, you are not going to run into trouble unless you create it yourself. Nitrate, Butyrate, and Acrylic Lacquer are all lacquer style paints. But, Nitrate will not go over the others real nicely. Like mixing your toners and pearls in clear dope. I have used a lot of pearl powders in clears. My '96 NATS plane had a clear pearl finish over the top of the colors. And maybe it is a matter of experience in finding out which materials will go over each other.
Don't mind me, I am the blind hog........ !
Bill <><
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Yea, yea, Bill. Don't play the woodsy with me. I know you are a good builder and finisher and could probably teach us all a thing or two. The awe shucks, I'm just a country boy, twirling your toe in the dirt stuff ain't flying here. We know you do very good work. I've seen pics of your stuff and you clearly know what your doing. ;D
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Finishing just plain sucks....
Even using the same materials, something always bites you and you spend days sanding off what should have been good to go. Hats off to anyone that can do it well, I'll never get there but sure have done allot of sanding practice...
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Well guys I'm never going to be a 20 point finisher as once a finish is on a plane I never will take it back off. No since to it as it probably won't last only through the summer. It doesn't take long for crash damage either sometimes even before I get to fly it. LL~ n~ S?P
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Yea, yea, Bill. Don't play the woodsy with me. I know you are a good builder and finisher and could probably teach us all a thing or two. The awe shucks, I'm just a country boy, twirling your toe in the dirt stuff ain't flying here. We know you do very good work. I've seen pics of your stuff and you clearly know what your doing. ;D
Hi Randy,
Close....... I'm really just an ol' mountain redneck................. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
(and thank you for the nice words, it's amazing what a picture can do for a model.)
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TY;
There has to be a secret,look what happened when I put the "Dope" on. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
"Billy G" VD~
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Dang Boy, I thought you knew to use non tautening dope on that thing... HB~> S?P LL~
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So that's where i messed up........ I better watch some more Windy Videos.
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TY;
There has to be a secret,look what happened when I put the "Dope" on. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
"Billy G" VD~
Bill, where did you get that super shrink dope?? DOC Holliday
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Hello : Randy , Bill and Ty
I wanted to know what you used to remove masking adhesive after trimming a color.?
Before you go onto the next color you have to clean the tape adhesive after the color
dries right? ???
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avoid the problem, buy GOOD automotive paint masking tape, 3M from the auto paint supplier, it wont transfer adhesive and you wot have to worry about it.
there is a product that is made for removing adhesive, again found at an auto paint store, several brands all are Trim adhisive, usually sold in a quart can. solvent should be safe for most paints.
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Hello : Randy , Bill and Ty
I wanted to know what you used to remove masking adhesive after trimming a color.?
Before you go onto the next color you have to clean the tape adhesive after the color
dries right? ???
I use two types of tape. Mainly though I use tha same as Mark, a good automotive tape. Not only do you lose the build up but it also takes less pressure to get a tight seal. When this is not available I use the blue painters tape available at paint shops, again this one takes less pressure to apply. Both of these tapes are thinner than their counterparts. Hope this helps you out Bryan.
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On third thought, there is a secret. A big secret.
Dilligence.
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On third thought, there is a secret. A big secret.
Dilligence.
Wasn't he arrested in the '30s?? Is that John's son??
Or you talking about those little pistols like I had with the over/under barrels that fired .22 cal rounds?? :## LL~
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Other wise I use the blue paper tape that has the orange label inside the spool. It is very light and does not stick like typical masking tape
What Ty wrote is of CRITICAL IMPORTANCE!
3M makes a few *blue* masking tapes. The one with the ORANGE SPOOL is the only masking tape to use for our planes. It works better trhan the 3M green auto tape, by far. It is VERY thin, and sticks but is made for a low release point. It's texture is like Jap Tissue, not crinkled like normal masking tape. Their blue masking tape with the blue spool is crap for our purposes. It sticks way to hard and can leave a *pattern* IN the paint.
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Thank you Ty and Bill
I will be painting my Fathers Cardnal soon so i will definitely use your recomended
tapes. I will buy almost all my supplies from a Automotive Paint Shop here in town.
This will be my first stunt plane painted with basecoat/clearcoat but i have painted
some cars before with my father . It has been years ago so i have to learn every
thing over again.....
I really like the old school paint schemes and the new with metallics , pearls and
candies. It will take me years to learn all the tricks but thats ok. Im a new STUNT
MAN that has the bug......
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psssttt, word of advice, go easy on the clearcoats,, over thin a little bit,, then only enough to get gloss,,,,,,, and flow
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psssttt, word of advice, go easy on the clearcoats,, over thin a little bit,, then only enough to get gloss,,,,,,, and flow
Listen well to Mark! Automotive urethane clear can get REAL heavy, REAL quick!
I have not used more than two clear coats using them, ever, and the second one was very thin.
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I just recently used a tape called Frog Tape "wow" really clean edges. If you remember to rub the edges down HB~>
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I just recently used a tape called Frog Tape "wow" really clean edges. If you remember to rub the edges down HB~>
Hi Mike,
What silver did you use there? It looks like a painted finish, but I have not, personally, seen a silver that bright!
Thanks
Bill <><
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Rustolium Professional in a silver can.
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Rustolium Professional in a silver can.
Thanks, Mike!
Bill <><
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OH Bill I don't think it's fuel proof thought haven't tried it yet but I'm going over it with auto clear anyway. :!
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OH Bill I don't think it's fuel proof thought haven't tried it yet but I'm going over it with auto clear anyway. :!
Thanks for the heads up, Mike. I have not used Rustoleum on any models. But using urethane clear is not a problem!
Bill <><