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Offline Motorman

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« on: February 25, 2018, 04:19:35 PM »
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 09:37:01 AM by Motorman »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2018, 04:25:19 PM »
I suspect it just ain't gonna happen, and that even if it appears to cure fully it may not be at full strength.  There may be more wrong with it than just moisture.

That having been said, you could try baking it, if there's nothing else in the assembly that's too heat sensitive.  Chuck it in the oven at 150F for an hour -- if that doesn't do anything, then you can give up!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2018, 07:52:17 PM »
Reminds me of the time I accidentally used clear instead of hardener.  Man was that plane glossy (until you touched the surface). If it never hardens, it flows out really well.   HB~>

Master painter Bill Byles was super impressed with the gloss, but will never let me live it down.  :'(

I tried spraying hardener on it, but no joy there.  There just isn't anything to be done but start over.

Major pain to clean up!  ~^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2018, 09:09:09 PM »
If you mix epoxy with not enough hardener will it eventually harden up or will it stay gummy. I mixed up some old stuff that turned white and I think the hardener got moisture in it and so displaced some of the hardener. It's supposed to cure in 12 hours but it's been 3 days and it's still rubbery. I mixed up a test with the same resin and some better hardener and it's good. Wondering if I should just wait it out or is it not going to happen.

  It depends on the type. Typically, you have to have the correct amount of each part, or you end up with unreacted material (whichever one is excessive) in the matrix, which is going to stay there taking up space and being a liquid forever.

    It might have water in it, but I would guess that the hardener is probably expired. The kind you would want to use for props usually has very limited shelf life.   Contact with it is also quite dangerous, even I pay attention to the warnings for industrial epoxy. And I am more-or-less convinced that the casual use of industrial epoxy (making carbon fuel tanks) is what caused Jim Tichy's early demise.

  Howard Rush is probably the guy you want to ask about this sort of thing, and when you are attempting to build propellors, the margin for errors or lack of understanding is very small.

    Brett

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 12:19:03 AM »
If you mix epoxy with not enough hardener will it eventually harden up or will it stay gummy. I mixed up some old stuff that turned white and I think the hardener got moisture in it and so displaced some of the hardener.


Hi.
The phenomenon that you describe seems to be the partial crystallization of one of the two components.
In this case it is sufficient to heat up to about 150 ° F until the white mass is completely dissolved

Massimo

Offline TDM

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2018, 06:04:21 AM »
Are these IC or Electric props?
If the resin is milky in color then you need to bring it back to life. the way to do that is to place a pan on the stove and fill with water, then put the resin bottle in the water ( i did not say pour the resin in put the whole bottle in make sure is capped well). Use low heat. When the resin becomes clear in color you are good to go done. The indirect heat coming from the water will gently heat the resin and it will recover.
a trick is to place said resin container in hot water. That will fix the resin. Hardeners have shelf life due to moisture. I would recommend replacement is is very old. 
Each goal you meet is a moment of happiness
Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2018, 10:06:32 AM »
Happy day, I got the prop out and the mold cleaned up ok. The prop is rubber but I can let it sit forever and see what happens. At least it showed me I got the right amount of CF tow in the right places, that hardly ever happens on the first try. Next prop will be rock hard.

    If this is a matter of time-related changes to the material in an industrial-quality epoxy (which I certainly hope you are using, instead of a filler-laden consumer type), I would either contact the manufacturer about what to do, or replace it with fresh. TDM may well be right about heating it up and making it clear again, but I would bet you could find that heating it up to any degree exceeds the storage environmental requirements. Most modeling applications, if it looks OK and feels OK, it's probably good enough, but not for something where you have a critical safety issue like a prop.

    I also don't want to assume you *don't* already know this, but you need to follow basic engineering recommendations for composite construction of high-stress parts, and make sure you weigh out the resin and the carbon  to ensure you have the right ratio of solid to matrix for the proper strength. In most places in modeling applications, you can afford to eyeball it because it's overkill anyway, but the margins around the hub of the prop are not good and fatigue is a real factor.

    Brett

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2018, 05:53:43 PM »
Hi,
My best advice is to buy and use always the best*. I began to work with Epoxy resins in the early '80s, and almost every case when I tried to substitute with some mid class and moderate priced material, I regretted that business. Now (for 20 years) I cannot tell you better than Araldite LY 5052 resin and its hardener Aradur HY 5052. You can use it for everything in model building from covering, laminating, down to negative mold building, (with the proper filler material). See for example:
http://www.bag-distribution.fr/araldite-ly-5052-in-1-kg-can-c2x21829682
http://www.bag-distribution.fr/aradur-5052-in-750-gr-can-c2x21829697
I cannot imagine that it is not available directly in the States...

*What I mean as "best": low viscosity, long potlife, high final strength (hardened at room temperature, without furnace), high hardness and safe curing, thanks to the high polimerization energy.

Think it over, maybe take a look into my topic "The bluefoam model..."
Istvan

Offline Target

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 06:09:59 PM »
I personally would not risk using that part on a flying model, nor running it on an engine.
Seems a little risky to me.
Please be careful!

VR,
Target
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 08:09:39 PM »
I personally would not risk using that part on a flying model, nor running it on an engine.
Seems a little risky to me.
Please be careful!

  +1 !


Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2018, 10:32:35 AM »
I agree with the previous comments.
In my first post I suggested to heat the resin BEFORE mixing the two components.
Now I do not believe that the behavior of the product obtained is predictable.

https://www.epoxies.com/_resources/common/userfiles/file/Crystallization%20of%20Epoxy%20Resins.pdf

Massimo

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2018, 02:20:46 PM »
I personally would not risk using that part on a flying model, nor running it on an engine.
Seems a little risky to me.
Please be careful!

VR,
Target

Just stay out of range of any debris.  It'll be fine.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2018, 04:55:13 PM »
The glue cured it just took longer. The prop's as hard as a rock. I just balanced it and checked the tracking, I don't see a problem.

You now have *no idea* what the engineering characteristics of the epoxy have become. Tread carefully and make sure you test it to about 15,000 rpm with abrupt plane changes, and for God's sake, stay out of line with the prop disc.

   Exactly what epoxy brand, part number, etc, are we talking about?
   
    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2018, 07:59:38 PM »
Howard Rush is probably the guy you want to ask about this sort of thing, and when you are attempting to build propellors, the margin for errors or lack of understanding is very small.

I made some flaps once where the epoxy was gummy after a day or so.  I put it into a light box at 115F for a week.  Still gummy.  I eventually concluded that I had forgotten the hardener.  Don't forget the hardener.  That's the best advice I have to offer.

I'm not current on prop resin.  I used 100 parts Epon 815 with 15 parts DETA hardener.  There's probably better stuff now.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Alexey Gorbunov

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Re: Epoxy Not Right
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2018, 11:30:32 AM »
Mix the epoxy. Apply a couple of drops on the aluminum foil. Preheat the lighter. If the majority is a solid thing - you can glue. This is not just for short epoxies.


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