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Author Topic: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF  (Read 2805 times)

Offline randy lane

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Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« on: February 23, 2022, 10:23:11 PM »
I have a Flight Streak with a 41" wingspan and OS25LA. I'm just starting to fly again at 68 and Id like to slow it down until I pick everything up again. It is running a 9x4 prop and 60" lines from wingtip with a control handle of 3" line spacing. I am launching at roughly 12,200 but it is 2 cycle once in the air. Maybe  a slower plane?
Thanks CEF

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2022, 02:40:55 AM »
How fast is it going? (What are your lap times?) This will help tell us what you think is too fast.

Are you doing straight and level flying for now, getting past the dizzies, or are you already doing maneuvers? If you just want to do mostly straight and level, you can use a bit longer lines and that will slow the rotation rate. The rotation rate is what affects people, not the actual airspeed, as related by line length. It may get harder to take off but you can temporarily add some more tip weight.

You can try a prop with less pitch. APC has some 9x3's you can try. I have not done this, having pretty much used at least a 9x4, so I'm not sure how the engine will handle.

You can open the needle and run it rich. This opens a huge can of worms that any number of people posting will disagree with. At the straight and level stage, I've done this with a Fancy Pants and an OS .25FP, which behaves much the same as the LA. The question is whether it will hold that setting all the way thru the tank.

If you want to do all the maneuvers and need some decent power, then you have fewer options for detuning just by

Best of luck,

Dave

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2022, 05:23:02 AM »
I just fixed a Flite Streak with the same problem. 57 foot lines. The .20FP would run well on the ground but go fast at lift off. It turns out the previous owner had a .282 venturi in it with the OS nva.I put in a .250 venturi and it runs fine in the air now. Lee Machine Shop can get you a proper venturi.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2022, 07:28:43 AM »
Thanks guys for the help. Im not sure on the laps, felt like two seconds but I know its not that fast. Im putting it back together now and will implement the suggestions.  Im an old newbie, used to fly in my youth so only looking for level flight until I get the dizzies under control. We'll see how the meds work. I have adjusted bellcrank and control horn for minimum travel as it was over controlling before. It was a constant up and down. Also can I run a smaller engine, a 15 or 20?
Thanks again!

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2022, 07:40:10 AM »
Thanks guys for the help. Im not sure on the laps, felt like two seconds but I know its not that fast. Im putting it back together now and will implement the suggestions.  Im an old newbie, used to fly in my youth so only looking for level flight until I get the dizzies under control. We'll see how the meds work. I have adjusted bellcrank and control horn for minimum travel as it was over controlling before. It was a constant up and down. Also can I run a smaller engine, a 15 or 20?
Thanks again!

The best cure for the dizzies are lazy eights. Flying PA, the 6 laps of inverted flight always gets my head spinning and often it's all I can do the hang on to the outside loops. It's that dead focus on the airplane that does it for me. Looking around away from the airplane will well. Perry's suggestion of a smaller venturi will be just as effective as putting a smaller engine on. Jim Lee makes several variations and you could get several for less than the price of a new engine and try them. If you went really small and it were too small you can simply drill them out or use a tapered reamer which actually works super well.

https://www.leemachineshop.com/Ordering/Order.php

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2022, 07:43:36 AM »
Keep in mind as you go through this that the Flight Streak is designed to fly fast.  Dizzy is a function of your brain being trained to ignore what your ears are telling it.  Takes time.  Try "walking" a small circle at first.  Mark's suggestion is good when the Dizzies are winning to take a break.  It was on a Streak when I was a kid that I learned inverted by stretching out lazy 8's.

Good luck and welcome back! - Ken
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2022, 08:00:47 AM »
Thanks Ken. Suggestions for a slower plane? I first learned to fly on a Buster with a Fox 35, it wasnt this fast.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2022, 08:17:58 AM »
Thanks Ken. Suggestions for a slower plane? I first learned to fly on a Buster with a Fox 35, it wasnt this fast.
Excellent choice.  I had the whole series and all of them are both stunt capable but also very easy to fly.  Nothing wrong with the Flight Streak either, it is just that it is really a 1950's combat plane and needs go a bit faster than your average bear.  I agree with some of the earlier posts, it is not how fast the plane is flying it is how fast you are turning!

Other planes I have had that might fit the bill depending on your goals would be a Magician, perhaps a Twister or the other SIG kits, Banshee,  Skyray,  Akromaster.   All of them will behave flying slow if you are not trying to do heavy maneuvers and be a good plane to learn on if you speed them up.  When I say "slow" I am really referring to the normal stunt window of around 5.1 to 5.6 lap times.  All of the ones I mentioned will fly level and well under control at 5.6 and do a full AMA pattern at 5.1.  I am sure that others will have perhaps even better choices!

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2022, 08:33:02 AM »
Excellent choice.  I had the whole series and all of them are both stunt capable but also very easy to fly.  Nothing wrong with the Flight Streak either, it is just that it is really a 1950's combat plane and needs go a bit faster than your average bear.  I agree with some of the earlier posts, it is not how fast the plane is flying it is how fast you are turning!

Ken

Flight streaks will slow down just fine and make really good trainers. They have a relatively small elevator to horizontal ratio which helps make them less sensitive. For the noob pilot that is a desirable feature. The FS also has a nice behaving NACA 0018 airfoil which is prevalent throughout PA. Reality is, there are a number of airplanes which would work for learning when detuned and none are truly superior to the FS, just different. Everyone always wants to reccomend the airplane they learned on because it must be that best. In my case, that wouldn't be good as the Thimble Drome TD-1 is super rare today and resultingly super spensive. The issue is going too fast and slowing the airplane down is the fix. There isn't a good reason to switch out a perfectly good airplane or engine when a $10 plus shipping venturi change will accomplish that.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2022, 08:43:07 AM »
Everyone always wants to recommend the airplane they learned on because it must be that best.

I learned on a Flight Streak.

Ken
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Online Joe Gilbert

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2022, 08:52:03 AM »
Combat ribbon will slow it some for sure. Don’t get to slow line tension will go away.  good luck.
Joe Gilbert

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2022, 09:03:48 AM »
I learned on a Flight Streak.

Ken

Lots of guys have. I'd probably say it would be my goto for a first airplane recommendation but I wouldn't discard a Ringmaster. My comment wasn't exactly to you per se but generally speaking. The learning phase is often relatively short and a specific trainer design is quickly outgrown. Sometimes not...  Bottom line IMO, the OP doesn't need to switch out the airplane as it's perfectly suitable for the mission at hand.
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2022, 09:06:05 AM »
Thanks again guys. For now I am going to stick with the FS and incorporate some or all of the suggested fixes here. I have two handles. One is 2" Center Line and the other 3". Any difference between the two? I will come back and post updates once I get it flying again.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2022, 09:14:55 AM »
  If you are flying a Flight Streak ARF, they are light enough t slow down to an acceptable speed. Keep your 60 foot lines, and try a 10-4 APC prop with a take off RPM of about 9500. Recruit some help to get some lap times. Speed it up or slow it down with the needle a few hundred RPM at a time as you need it.  You can't go too slow of the plane will not fly and any puff of wind will blow it in on you. If you can, get it to fly in a 5.5 second per lap range. That will be fast enough for some line tension and slow enough for you to keep up with it. Try some extra right thrust also. If you get to the point where you are getting used to things and want to try some tricks, then you are just a couple of clicks of the needle away from some loops, lazy eights or even inverted flight. Lap times in the 5.5 to 5.7 range are what you want and then when your are ready speed it up to the 5.2 to 5.3 range. That doesn't sound like much but it is a big difference. I have helped a fiend through this same scenario with the same combination. The LA .25 will get it all done for you.
   Good Luck and Have Fun!!
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2022, 10:27:34 AM »
Combat ribbon will slow it some for sure. Don’t get to slow line tension will go away.  good luck.
Joe, That is a really good suggestion.  If you are sticking with the Streak, do you have an experienced flier in your area that can help you set it up to fly slow?  Wheels or Hand Launch?  Despite the current trend away from rudder offset I think you will want both motor and rudder offset if it is not already there and a relatively forward CG which is tricky with that short nose.  As you can tell, it is not my first choice for learning, especially since it was my first plane beyond the COX .049 plastics that we all first flew as kids.   Don't mis-understand, it is a really good plane when flown within its design envelope.

Unfortunately for this thread, I am also not a fan of narrow handle spacings.  I would consider 3" narrow.  It is my personal belief that it encourages you to use too much wrist and elbow which becomes habit later on but there is a complete opposite camp on that one. 

Again, good luck - Ken
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2022, 08:13:28 PM »
Gentlemen, I have calculated air speed and distance for the 4 pitch and 3 pitch to see what differences I would be looking at for a circumference of a 395.6' circle (63' from bellcrank to my handle). I figured 12,500rpm at launch and 13,000 once flying at speed. I'm not experienced enough to tell RPM from 2 and 4 cycle so I am guessing at flying RPM. I have an RPM meter for before takeoff. So I found this formula on Heads Up Hobby for converting rpm to speed if you know the prop pitch.
Multiply the RPM by the propeller pitch (e.g., RPM 5699 x 6 = 34194)
Divide the sum of the above calculation by 1056* (e.g., 34194 / 1056 = 32.380)
The dividend of 32.38 is the speed in miles per hour.

My Numbers Below
13000 x 4 = 52000
52000 / 1056 = 49.24mph
circumference / speed = time
395.6'/49.2mph= 8.04 seconds lap time
Someone suggested using a 3 pitch prop which changes speed to 36.9 and lap time to 10.7 seconds. Will this bird fly at that speed. All I am looking for is level flight maybe inverted flight so I can overcome my dizziness. Am I missing something? Thanks again guys

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2022, 08:41:31 PM »
.. speed to 36.9 and lap time to 10.7 seconds. Will this bird fly at that speed.
I doubt it.  Most "stunt" planes flew in the 50+mph range.  Combat near 100.  The era that this plane flew in it was in the 70-80mph range.  I wouldn't go over 6 seconds.  You might get away with 7 if you are good as keeping it from stalling.  Try walking in circles like the racing guys do till you can tighten it up.  The brain learns fast and forgets slow so it shouldn't take long.  OR, you could find a carrier flier to give you some tips!

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2022, 09:02:54 PM »
Gentlemen, I have calculated air speed and distance for the 4 pitch and 3 pitch to see what differences I would be looking at for a circumference of a 395.6' circle (63' from bellcrank to my handle). I figured 12,500rpm at launch and 13,000 once flying at speed. I'm not experienced enough to tell RPM from 2 and 4 cycle so I am guessing at flying RPM. I have an RPM meter for before takeoff. So I found this formula on Heads Up Hobby for converting rpm to speed if you know the prop pitch.
Multiply the RPM by the propeller pitch (e.g., RPM 5699 x 6 = 34194)
Divide the sum of the above calculation by 1056* (e.g., 34194 / 1056 = 32.380)
The dividend of 32.38 is the speed in miles per hour.

My Numbers Below
13000 x 4 = 52000
52000 / 1056 = 49.24mph
circumference / speed = time
395.6'/49.2mph= 8.04 seconds lap time
Someone suggested using a 3 pitch prop which changes speed to 36.9 and lap time to 10.7 seconds. Will this bird fly at that speed. All I am looking for is level flight maybe inverted flight so I can overcome my dizziness. Am I missing something? Thanks again guys

    I think that equation is quite wrong. It tells you you are getting 8 seconds laps, which is quite obviously too slow.

    Part of the problem is you are calculating the lap time from the "speed" incorrectly -you are mixing feet and miles and hours and seconds. 49.24 mph is actually 72 feet/second (5280 feet/mile, 3600 seconds/hour) 49.24*5280/3600 = 72.2 feet/second). This means you would expect a lap time of about 396/72.2 =~5.5 seconds. This, too, is pretty slow, but fast enough that you could gently maneuver.

   We already know about what you will be getting with a 25LA/9-4/Flite Streak, its more like 4.5 seconds, which is pretty brisk for a new flier/retread, but not outrageous.

    Problem number 2 is that the equation to calculate the speed is wrong, and only comes out pretty close by coincidence. The equation suggests that the prop screws itself through the air at 4"/rev. That's wrong in several regards - It is labelled 4" because if you compute the angle required to go 4" in 1 rev, the back face of the blade more-or-less matches that angle. The actual pitch, that is, the distance it would travel forward in one rev if giving no lift, is probably more like 6.5-7".

    But under no circumstances does that, say, 7" pitch, screw it self forward 7" in a rev, because there is substantial drag, so you have generate some thrust, meaning the prop is not putting out zero thrust, and travels much less than 7" in a rev. In this case, the prop is pretty small, so it might only go 50% of 7", or about 3.5", in one rev. A larger prop that is otherwise the same pitch, would travel further in one rev, maybe 60-65% of 7". So, just looking at the pitch, it more-or-less coincidentally works out to about 4, but that depends on many other factors that are not considered.

    I think the suggestion to use a larger prop might actually speed it up. That's why I recommend the APC 9-4 instead of a 10-4 - it's too fast with the 10-4, and the otherwise identical 9-4 prop travels forward less per rev, and slows it down. It will not spin the larger prop as fast on the ground, but once it is in the air, it will spin nearly as fast at the 9" prop, and be more efficient, so might actually go faster rather than slower.

   Third thing is that your inflight RPM is probably much higher than 13,000 - more like 14, we have tested very similar models many times, the last a few weeks ago, using an audio tachometer from the center of the circle.

   So, not to be indelicate, but there are bunch of mistakes in the analysis that coincidentally gives you an answer within about 25% or so of reality.

     3" of (marked/measured) pitch will drastically slow it down, in the the 5.5-5.8 seconds a lap (from the current 4.5 or so) which is probably the way to go here. It will not have stellar stunt performance at that speed, but it will help to get over getting dizzy, just be careful trying to do stunts.

  Once you *do* get over it, I think you will find the 9-4 and a constant 2-stroke setting to be much better - 4.5-4.6 is pretty fast in level flight, but the speed is so well-controlled in the maneuvers that it seems like you have all day.

   You are not treading new ground here, we have done hundreds of tests using airplanes and engines like this, there are no real mysteries about how it's going to go. I think you put on a 10-3 for a while, noodle around until you get comfortable, then speed it up and run it like indicated. It is fully capable of 500+point competition flights and in the right hands would win just about every local expert class contest as long as there were no typical NATS qualifiers around.

     You are doing good, please let us all know how you make out.  We are here to help!

      Brett

Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2022, 12:13:40 PM »
Thanks Motorman and Brett. That formula for speed came from Stunt Hanger and doesn't surprise its not correct. I like Motormans formula. I was running a 9x4 and have ordered from APC a 9x3 and a 9x4. Hopefully the 9x3 will slow it down enough to fly it. It had severe over correction on the flaps but I have fixed that. That was causing me to look overhead and all around constantly. You guys are great as well as my friend Fred Von G. Thanks to all of you. I will repost after I get her repaired and back in the air.
Blessings to All

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2022, 09:30:19 PM »
APC 9x4 or 10x4 are the right props for that motor.  A 9x3 may make the motor go faster than it wants.  If you want to try a 3-pitch, I'd suggest a 10x3.  That should present a similar load on the ground at least.  I think it'd be better to use use a 9x4 or 10x4 and tone the motor down.

To tone the motor down, use a smaller venturi or get some of the fine nylon mesh that they wrap flowers in, and pile those on to the venturi.  Hold them on with an O-ring from the hardware store (rubber bands work, but turn to goo in weeks).  Somewhere around 3 or 4 layers you'll start noticing a difference.  If you need more than 6, get a smaller venturi.  Note that more mesh means more suction, so you'll need to adjust the needle valve with each extra layer.

The advise to go with 5.5 second lap times on 60' lines is good.
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2022, 04:37:07 PM »
Thanks Tim, I have 9x4 and 9x3 props on order from APC. I was running a 9x4. Maybe stick with that and just turn the engine down some. Are you saying a 10x3 will slow it down?

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2022, 06:33:38 PM »
It should.  Actually, a 10x4 usually slows them down a bit over the 9x4, because they get loaded down and don't run as efficiently.  A 10x3 ought to load the engine more or less the same as the 9x4, and because of the lower pitch the plane will go slower for the same engine speed.

I'd still restrict the inlet before using the 10x3, but that's just me.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2022, 06:49:51 PM »
It should.  Actually, a 10x4 usually slows them down a bit over the 9x4, because they get loaded down and don't run as efficiently.  A 10x3 ought to load the engine more or less the same as the 9x4, and because of the lower pitch the plane will go slower for the same engine speed.

I'd still restrict the inlet before using the 10x3, but that's just me.
Have you considered an RC carburetor? Pretty easy to fine tune speed with a throttle.

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2022, 06:59:28 PM »
Have you considered an RC carburetor? Pretty easy to fine tune speed with a throttle.

Considered, yes.  Used, not much.

Because: first, nearly all the engines that come my way already have venturies, or possibly nothing; second, given that the engines that come my way are usually used, I don't trust the carburetors not to leak air in inconvenient places; and third, I have a pretty good idea of how much fuss and bother it would be to nail down an RC throttle at a particular setting, and a pile of nylon mesh is just as easy, or easier.

But Randy: if you have a throttle on your engine you may want to give Ken's suggestion a try.
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2022, 07:55:19 PM »
Tim, No throttle and I had thought about Kens idea to be used as a way to shut it off if I get really dizzy. Hadn't thought about adjusting during flight for speed. Good ideas guys Ive got the plane repaired just need to put the monocoat back down in some places. I will try the 10x4 first and get some times on laps for a base line. The wind always blows here so by the time we get a fairly calm day I should have her ready to go. I fly next to my house in a large field that I mow and keep manicured. What wind speed would you suggest as a max for flying. I have the motor offset outboard as well as the rudder. She did OK keeping the lines taught but that was with a 9x4 and launching at 12K.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2022, 08:15:44 PM »
Tim, No throttle and I had thought about Kens idea to be used as a way to shut it off if I get really dizzy. Hadn't thought about adjusting during flight for speed. Good ideas guys Ive got the plane repaired just need to put the monocoat back down in some places. I will try the 10x4 first and get some times on laps for a base line. The wind always blows here so by the time we get a fairly calm day I should have her ready to go. I fly next to my house in a large field that I mow and keep manicured. What wind speed would you suggest as a max for flying. I have the motor offset outboard as well as the rudder. She did OK keeping the lines taught but that was with a 9x4 and launching at 12K.
I would preface my estimate based on what you can do at this point.  If you can do a lazy 8 then you have an out for both too must wind and getting dizzy.  The streak is not notorious for staying out on the lines upwind.  I would probably say 5mph until you get a feel for it.  I am probably a bad one talk about wind though.  I learned to dead stick wind fly as a kid so if I can get it off of the ground, I am good.

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2022, 05:47:20 AM »
Tim, No throttle and I had thought about Kens idea to be used as a way to shut it off if I get really dizzy. Hadn't thought about adjusting during flight for speed. Good ideas guys Ive got the plane repaired just need to put the monocoat back down in some places. I will try the 10x4 first and get some times on laps for a base line. The wind always blows here so by the time we get a fairly calm day I should have her ready to go. I fly next to my house in a large field that I mow and keep manicured. What wind speed would you suggest as a max for flying. I have the motor offset outboard as well as the rudder. She did OK keeping the lines taught but that was with a 9x4 and launching at 12K.

Where do you live that the wind always blows like it does here in KS? The 10x4 will slow the engine down compared to the 9x4 and you'll find the speed is better regulated. Switching out the venturi is the same as using an RC carb but more reliable. Eventually, you'll get used to the turning and be fine.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2022, 12:09:15 PM »
Where do you live that the wind always blows like it does here in KS? The 10x4 will slow the engine down compared to the 9x4 and you'll find the speed is better regulated. Switching out the venturi is the same as using an RC carb but more reliable. Eventually, you'll get used to the turning and be fine.

   Every time I tried it, a 10-4 sped the airplane up, not slow it down. That's why I went to the 9-4.

    Brett

Online Brad LaPointe

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2022, 01:48:56 PM »
A trick we use for beginners locally is to tie a streamer on the model . It certainly won’t be the first Flight Streak pulling a streamer and it slows things down. It really helps a beginner “keep up” with the plane .

Brad

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2022, 03:30:23 PM »
Randy, if you're working through the dizzies, short tank the thing.  If you can't short tank it enough and still get it started, put a smaller tank on it.

Just enough fuel so that you don't fall down until after the landing should be about right.

Keep that up, and you should accommodate.  If not, you'll get all our sympathy, and about 10x from anyone who has had to stop flying because of vertigo.
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2022, 04:17:07 PM »
More good conversation. Hopefully I get to try these this week. I am south of Houston in a small place called Rosharon. Open lad south of my house where I can fly. I am at the edge of the subdivision with an open field. We usually have 10mph winds most days.

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2022, 05:29:07 PM »
You could take a try north to Katy and Scobee Field.  Lots of help available there.  If you can fly in circles it’s time to learn lazy eights.

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2022, 05:29:14 PM »
   Every time I tried it, a 10-4 sped the airplane up, not slow it down. That's why I went to the 9-4.

    Brett

I honestly wouldn't doubt that and I haven't done an A-B test to verify. The efficiency band of both propellers is about the same with the 9x4 running faster implying a higher net velocity. Depending on the drag of the airplane how fast the airplanes goes will be a function of the available thrust generated. Both low pitch props will run right up to the high side of the efficiency band. What I'd really expect is that both would run very closely in speed for a light airplane and for a heavier airplane the 10x4 would fly faster.
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Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2022, 06:00:31 PM »
I had bad attacks of the "dizzies" when I returned to the fold about 15 years ago (Also with a flight Streak).. My solution suggested by club mates, has already been mentioned, walk the model round a lap rather than turning on the spot. I'm a lefty so it seemed unnatural to me but it really worked and I still fly that way today. I went electric and being able to program the CC ESC meant I had repeatable results until I became accustomed to the feeling and could increase the revs back to a condition where I could start learning the maneuvers.

Looking forwards to hearing about your progress, We need all the pilots we can get. :)

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2022, 07:52:41 PM »
I honestly wouldn't doubt that and I haven't done an A-B test to verify. The efficiency band of both propellers is about the same with the 9x4 running faster implying a higher net velocity. Depending on the drag of the airplane how fast the airplanes goes will be a function of the available thrust generated. Both low pitch props will run right up to the high side of the efficiency band. What I'd really expect is that both would run very closely in speed for a light airplane and for a heavier airplane the 10x4 would fly faster.

  The 9-4 will not be running faster, it is almost the same RPM as the 10-4. It's slower on the ground, but not consequentially in the air, it is within about 100 or so rpm at the same setting. In that case, the higher efficiency of the larger prop speeds up the airplane.

   Also, considering maneuvering, the airplanes would be almost unflyable if they didn't slow down for the maneuvers, that is why you want a 9-4 instead of a 10-4, at least on Flite Streak/Skyray 35-sized models. It might be going 4.5 seconds a lap in level flight, but slows to a very reasonable and very easily-controlled speed in the maneuvers. The short-term stability greatly improves over 6" of pitch and the overall timing slows and gets extremely predictable.

     I am happy to discuss this at any length necessary, but, for goodness sake, we (my buddies and I) have been doing this experiment - in some cases identical down to the details - for 30+ year and hundreds of carefully controlled test flights and very successful competition.

   Randy has a temporary problem that will take about 2 flights to get over, just get a 9-3 or 10-3 on it, that will definitely slow it down (without screwing around with attempting to needle it down), once he gets over it, he can just go back to what he was trying.

    Brett

 *note that this includes yesterday - where we determined that the unload with a APC 9-4 is about 400 RPM, a 12,800 rpm launch RPM unloaded to about 13,200 or so in the air. This is the smallest unload that we have reliably measured, and an intentional goal of running this size prop, and an APC in particular.  Had I know this was going to come up, we could have tried a 10-4 APC (which would wind up 12,500->13,100 - 600 RPM) and maybe a Tornado 10-4 (which we previously measured at nearly 1000 rpm unload on the 20FP, but much slower on both the ground and flight).

   Note that the "engine RPM" audio tachometer makes this measurement very easy, and it is *very interesting*, including proving things like when you go into a maneuver, the RPM drops whether an engine goes from 4->2 or not, and that it is running much slower in the maneuver in a 2 than it was when it was 4-stroking in level flight. This all verifies our previous observations and assumptions with real data. You would be very surprised how many people think that breaking into a 2-stroke in a maneuver means it is speeding up, rather than the reality, that it is breaking into a 2-stroke means it has slowed down, in some cases, 3-4-500 rpm.

Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2022, 08:02:46 AM »
I'm amazed at the knowledge and willingness of everyone to give working suggestions and help. I am planning to fly today but all I have is a wooden 10x4 prop. Some APCs are due here in a day or two (9x4 and 9x3). The wind is zero knots which is rare, so maybe turn it down a little and fly or wait? Thanks Again

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2022, 08:33:18 AM »
I'm amazed at the knowledge and willingness of everyone to give working suggestions and help. I am planning to fly today but all I have is a wooden 10x4 prop. Some APCs are due here in a day or two (9x4 and 9x3). The wind is zero knots which is rare, so maybe turn it down a little and fly or wait? Thanks Again

   Go for it! Why waste a good day! ?? Get what data and experience that you can. The wood 10-4 will be close to the APC , just play with the needle on each flight and if you can't time your laps in flight have some one else do it. The main imprtant thing is to find your comfort level and what speed you want right now.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2022, 10:54:35 AM »
I'm amazed at the knowledge and willingness of everyone to give working suggestions and help. I am planning to fly today but all I have is a wooden 10x4 prop. Some APCs are due here in a day or two (9x4 and 9x3). The wind is zero knots which is rare, so maybe turn it down a little and fly or wait? Thanks Again

    You are very welcome. As I mentioned, there has been an ongoing series of experiments with almost exactly what you are doing, dating back to the mid-90s, where I (with a lot of help from my flying buddies) have been trying these sorts fo combinations. So, this is exactly on point, there is very little about this we haven't tried and pretty carefully documented.

    My initial goal was to find a way to bring modern performance levels to these sorts of smallish 35-sized airplanes, instead of the crummy old baffle-piston engines like the Fox 35, AND, do it without having to grind them up or ship them off for the dreaded "rework". It was wildly successful, and the interesting finding was that once you realize that modern 32-35-40s are *vastly too powerful* for airplanes formerly designed for a Fox 35, etc., you could use smaller modern engines. Turns out that just about any 19-28 sized "modern" engine we tried worked pretty well and all handled better and was much performer than the same airplane with an old baffle-piston 35. Two engines have really stood out from the already-good pack - the OS-20FP and 25LA (new version). But the key is to run them faster with 4" of pitch, just like regular full stunt planes have done since the late 80;s, for the same reasons of performance.

   The only problems we have had with this plan is that people tend to refuse to believe that you can just run stock engines out of the box, and keep modifying/"improving" it with "better" parts. Do that, and you are back in the weeds. There are at least a few extended threads/rants about it in the engine forum.

    Just go fly it, put in less fuel, and if you have to, just richen it up to slow it down. But be aware that it might not want to stay at this rich setting, it might "take off" lean at some point. This is normal, it does not want to nor was it designed to chug around in a 4-stroke, and as a general proposition, you do not want it to run that way, that means you have no performance.

   Once you get over being dizzy, you can speed it up, and you will have a better-flying system than 90% of the people flying today. It's so easy to fly that you don't learn bad habits trying to "help" the airplane. We have very recent evidence that most of the problems people have with learning to compete in stunt is that the airplanes they try to use are so terrible that you have to "help" them, which just teaches you bad habits that are nearly impossible to overcome later. It works so well that people can just skip straight from learning the maneuvers to flying competitively in Advanced, in the space of 5-6 flying sessions.

     Brett

Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2022, 06:53:26 PM »
Hey Guys,
Once again great info for an old guy (68). So I flew her yesterday with a 10x4 prop and took off at 10,500. I had to load a full tank becasue it would not run long enough with a half tank to get it in the air. After talking to my friend Fred von he suggested putting the outside wing tip on the ground and try that. Haven't had a chance yet. I flew the whole tank 2oz and the plane behaved like it is supposed to, but I still got really dizzy and managed to keep it airborne until it ran dry. It was on a glide path when I finally fell to the ground. The plane landed safely but not me. I am hurting today but its all muscle aches so I am using BioFreeze and some pain killers. Fred gave me a clunk tank and I will install it so I can run much less fuel and have some fun. Dont get me wrong it was a lot of fun knowing I was going down just not when. LOL I am no quitter and next time I will wear my bike helmet and collar brace. Thanks again!

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2022, 07:02:40 PM »
Hey Guys,
Once again great info for an old guy (68). So I flew her yesterday with a 10x4 prop and took off at 10,500. I had to load a full tank becasue it would not run long enough with a half tank to get it in the air. After talking to my friend Fred von he suggested putting the outside wing tip on the ground and try that. Haven't had a chance yet. I flew the whole tank 2oz and the plane behaved like it is supposed to, but I still got really dizzy and managed to keep it airborne until it ran dry. It was on a glide path when I finally fell to the ground. The plane landed safely but not me. I am hurting today but its all muscle aches so I am using BioFreeze and some pain killers. Fred gave me a clunk tank and I will install it so I can run much less fuel and have some fun. Dont get me wrong it was a lot of fun knowing I was going down just not when. LOL I am no quitter and next time I will wear my bike helmet and collar brace. Thanks again!

    COOL!! Fred will be a big help to you, he's a cool guy. Keep at it a few minutes at a time. rest about 20 minutes in between flights, longer if you need it. It's the repetition that gets you used to it. It will just kind of come to you. Just keep going at your own pace and have some fun. I've been at this a LONG, LONG time and while I don't get dizzy going counter clockwise, when the model has to go inverted for the 6 laps and then the outside loops, I can feel it a  little bit and I'm ready to stop for the outsides.!!  I'm almost the same age as you, and my biggest problem is my knees with some arthritis. I may have to try some of that BioFreeze you are using!
   Type at you later,
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Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2022, 07:58:08 PM »
Dan the Bio Freeze is some of the best we have found. My wife and I have been using for a number of years. Yes Fred is a great guy and I enjoy his advice like so many of you. Good weather tomorrow so hopefully I get her in the air again.

Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2022, 02:46:58 PM »
Dan the Bio Freeze is some of the best we have found. My wife and I have been using for a number of years. Yes Fred is a great guy and I enjoy his advice like so many of you. Good weather tomorrow so hopefully I get her in the air again.

Got a 2 oz clunk on her today that Fred van sent me. A little windy right now but towards sunset I think it will slow down so I can get a flight in with a short tank.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2022, 08:50:21 PM »
Randy and Dan that is why I can do loops plus eights.  My knees tell me enough even using pain killers.  Also as stated take breaks between flights. D>K

By the way never thought I would live this long, but still breaking my record each day. H^^
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2022, 05:25:08 PM »
And by the way, 68 is NOT old for this hobby/sport! That would put you right in the sweet spot of average at most fields. I am 74 and have been doing this for about 60 years and still learn new stuff all the time. Having folks like Brett around to help is a great benefit, listen to what he tells you about any engine. His Skyray with the LA25 is legendary here in Northern California. So good to see anyone, old or young, get into - or back into -  the hobby. Keep at it, hook up with experienced CL flyers in your area, and have a blast!

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2022, 11:20:33 AM »
Hiya Randy. As I read down I thought of a 5-6m ribbon towed behind. Then I spotted Joe Gilbert suggesting the very thing.
This is a simple solution without faffing about, works a treat and and is easily adjusted with ripping some off. My attitude is always - "What's the quickest way to the beach?" Good luck.

Offline randy lane

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Re: Slow Down a Flight Streak ARF
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2022, 02:18:41 PM »
Thanks again all. I have the 2 oz clunk on the plane that Fred sent me but the wind every day has created a no fly zone! Soon as I see a calm morning or evening its off to the races.


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