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Author Topic: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.  (Read 1524 times)

Offline Electric George

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Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« on: May 28, 2022, 07:58:45 AM »
Hi All,

I am using a carbon rod for the pushrod between the elevator and flap. As I have moved the wing forward I had to use something other than the kit supplied wire anyway.

The plan shows the pushrod in the lowest horn position to the surface but this means the flap hits the pushrod when it moves up.

Looking at pictures of the Banshee I see the pushrod bent in an arc to avoid the flap (no good with carbon tube) or moved to the top hole on the horn.
I can move the pushrod to the highest horn position which gives much more movement.
How much  surface throw should I be aiming for? Should it be the same throw for both flaps and elevators on the Banshee?
I have read that Jack Sheeks suggests cutting the flap with the horn. Is that simply cutting a notch out of the flap to create more clearance?

Thanks

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2022, 09:46:47 AM »
30 - 35 deg deflection is all you need. You need to position the rods in the holes that give equal deflection of flap and elevator. You must avoid having more flap deflection then elevator. With the CF rod just cut a notch in the flap to clear. Make sure the CG is correct and the leadouts swept 3/8" behind the CG (center of leadouts).

Best,    DennisT





Offline Motorman

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2022, 11:35:21 AM »
You need the push rod from the bellcrank to go to the top hole on the flap horn. As others have said just cut a notch in the flap for clearance.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2022, 12:04:33 PM »
Motorman chimed in as I was writing this, and he is correct.  BC to Outer Hole on flap horn.  The Banshee was designed for a 3" bellcrank.  Is yours 3 or 4"   Also, are you using nylon horns vs a one-piece metal? Both are going to require a cutout but with the 1-piece metal you can make a wide TE Faring/Fillet on each side and position the horn so that the controls are over it.  This keeps the flaps without a cutout, you maintain your original size ratio and cut down tail wiggle just a bit.  Ratio of 1:1 is good but 2:3 might be better (30 Flap, 45 Elevator) depending on how you fly corners.   It is 100% personal preference, but I don't like only having as much control as you need for normal circumstances. Dennis is also right, 30 - 35 degrees on the elevator is probably about 5 degrees more than you will use but it is also all you will have if you really need more.

Ken
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Offline Electric George

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2022, 01:03:41 PM »
Hi all,
Thanks for the replies; I do love this forum!

Dennis - great info, I will check all of that.
Motorman - Great tip regarding moving belcrank rod to outer hole.
Ken - I am using the kit supplied 3" belcrank and the kit supplied nylon horns. Very interesting thoughts and ways to set up the flap/elevator. No flying of corners for me yet! I am using an elevator only model to learn the basic stunts but will hopefully fly the Banshee soon (even if I then put it aside until next year).

Thanks again, that knowledge gives me something to aim for now.   

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2022, 01:48:50 PM »
   What hole on the bell crank are you using for the push rod? Some where out there there is a drawing floating around on how to set up a 3" SIG bell crank with the same motions and travels as a 4" counterpart, you just don't have the lever advantage of the 4" arms. I think this calls for using the hole closest to the pivot, the dimension 7/16" comes to mind. This keeps you from over driving the controls and making them too fast. Keep in mind that the plans were drawn for that in the early 70's when that was the way things were done. It might be worth doing a search on the forum for Banshee threads and control set ups. The stock horns will function, but I like their larger, heavier ones that have more holes for more control movement options. You can make the rod into the carbon push rod as long as you need it to be able to tweak it a bit if you need to in order to clear the flap, but a notch works also.
  Type at you later.
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2022, 06:06:29 PM »
Dwayne just posted a picture on the "What did you do in your shop today" thread that shows exactly what we are talking about.

Here is an idea I have used for years to get the control system how I like it before it is all covered up.  I cut out a bellcrank, flap horn, elevator horn and some pushrods out of heavy poster cardboard and use thumbtacks for pivots.  You can get everything exactly like you want it before drilling holes or, if you have holes already drilled play with the combinations. 

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Electric George

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2022, 01:29:42 AM »
Dan - thanks for the info. I have the push rod in the outer hols of the 3" bellcrank. I have searched Banshee threads but will try searching 3" bellcrank control system threads to read through.

Ken- thanks I will go over to that thread and read. That seems a useful method for future reference.


Today I will play with the controls and see if I can get what we are looking for. I have ball links on threaded couplers on the carbon rod and so there is good scope for adjustment.

Thanks

Offline Motorman

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2022, 07:53:36 AM »
I have the push rod in the outer hole of the 3" bellcrank.

You want a ratio of about 5.82:1 on the bellcrank. For a 3" that's a little more than 1/2" for the pushrod throw. If you don't fix that now you'll have to reduce your handle spacing or add nose weight to reduce sensitivity of the controls. Neither one is a real good option. I would cut a hole in the planking and change it.

Motorman 8)

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2022, 09:35:07 AM »
You want a ratio of about 5.82:1 on the bellcrank. For a 3" that's a little more than 1/2" for the pushrod throw. If you don't fix that now you'll have to reduce your handle spacing or add nose weight to reduce sensitivity of the controls. Neither one is a real good option. I would cut a hole in the planking and change it.

Motorman 8)
If you are building to PA requirements you are most certainly correct, but he isn't and could simply use a taller flap horn.  Personally, I doubt that control pressure or even to some degree hunting are going to be too important.  Using the outer hole gives you more of a range of movement possible for the flaps and more than enough pressure for learning.  What are the hole measurements on a Sig 3" and how tall is the flap horn?  They come in all sizes in the RC world.  In my opinion that beats digging into the wing. 

One other note if you have not mounted the flap horn.  The angle of the horn should be as close to 90 degrees with the BC pushrod as possible.  You can't do that with a nylon horn so you will want the hole you use to be about 1/16" forward of the hinge line.  The reverse will be true for the elevator.   The shape of the horn matters less than the position of the hole relative to the hinge line.  At this level close counts but, if you draw the angles on the plans, you can get a more accurate measurement.  If you have mounted the horns, don't change anything.  This only affects the speed that the controls react and the movement ratio's between up and down.  For now, a simple handle adjustment will suffice.

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Electric George

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2022, 02:58:09 AM »
I had some time on the Banshee yesterday and experimented with the placement of the carbon tube pushrod and achieved 35 degrees of movement for the flaps and a little over (2 degrees) for the elevators. I will probably start there and I can increase elevators if needed by moving holes on the horn. 

Motorman - you were spot on with the flap ending up in the top hole of the flap horn. I have already covered the wing so will fly first and if need be I will move the pushrod to the inner hole.

Ken- yes, that is the stage I am with my flying. I will stick to adjusting the line spacing on my handle for now.

Thanks to you both for the info (there is certainly a lot to learn) it is very useful and the next plane I build I will re-read these pointers and ask questions on here before following instructions in the kit.


Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2022, 11:45:32 AM »
...35 degrees of movement for the flaps...PERFECT...and a little over (2 degrees) for the elevators....I HOPE THIS IS A TYPO!..You are OK as long as it is >= to the flaps.

You are on the right path, now go fly!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Electric George

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Re: Sig Banshee flap/elevator travel questions.
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2022, 04:53:19 AM »
You are on the right path, now go fly!

Ken

Hi Ken,

OOOOPS! Yes, that should have read 35 degrees for the Flaps and a little over that (around two degrees) for the Elevators.

I do look forward to getting this one in the air soon.
Thanks


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