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Author Topic: Recovering very old airplanes?????  (Read 5937 times)

Offline frank mccune

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Recovering very old airplanes?????
« on: March 14, 2016, 08:49:22 AM »
    Hello All:

     What is the best option for recovering airplanes that have very old coverings?  I am speaking about 30-50 year old silk, tissue, cote or silkspan finishes.  These coverings have split in the open bays and have become very brittle.

     One could remove all traces of the old covering or just cut out the open bay areas and not remove the covering that is still attached to the solid wood structures. I have  seen the entire covering removed and a new covering of silk, silkspan and cote applied. The recovering this way looked like it was a new finish job!  It is a huge amount of work to take the old covering off down to bare wood gain.


      Any thoughts of comments concerning how to bring these old treasures b to life?

                                                                                                          Be well,

                                                                                                          Frank MCcune
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 10:01:17 AM »
Frank,

Guys acquire models all the time that are old and really used. I acquired a Super Ringmaster for 20 bucks. It was really beat up.

IMHO, the approach one takes as to bringing the model back to life is a decision only that modeler can make.

How far do you want to take it?

My project? I wanted to bring the model back better than new. And I did!

I learned a great deal working on my Super Ringmaster. I enjoyed the work I did on this model and learned a great deal in the process.

I say decide, then "Go For it!"

A test in modeling spirit.   ;D

Here's a link to the redo I did on that model!

http://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/'silk-purse!'-p-40-warhawk!-from-a-ringmaster/

« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:55:56 AM by Avaiojet »
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 10:53:21 AM »
     Hello Charles:

     .Great to hear from you.  I did follow your work on the P 40.  You did a great job!!

      The last plane of yours that I saw was a green one that was a real knockout! You are a great artist and craftsman.

      Kindly continue posting your work.

      Thanks for the helpful reply.

                                                                                              Be well my friend,

                                                                                              Frank
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 10:58:00 AM »
Quote from: frank mccune on March 14, 2016, 10:53:21 AM
    Hello Charles:

     .Great to hear from you.  I did follow your work on the P 40.  You did a great job!!

      The last plane of yours that I saw was a green one that was a real knockout! You are a great artist and craftsman.

      Kindly continue posting your work.

      Thanks for the helpful reply.

                                                                                              Be well my friend,

                                                                                              Frank

Frank,

Thank you.

What is the model you have and what will you decide to do with it?

Photos?

Charles
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 11:50:13 AM »
Frank
It really depends on the plane and YOUR final vision for looks and finish

I was given a ringmaster with dead doped blue silk that needed recovering...the fuselage and tail were OK done in tissue and dope

I thought about a total removal but ended up just carefully cutting out the open bays...light sanding all the LE/TE/Ribs...two coats of Butyrate (not knowing what was originally used)-- (( no nitrate over Butyrate concern))

New 5 mm silk, same royal Blue dope, the LR/TE/Ribs, already blue, made each a shade darker and the effect looked real good to me

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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 12:05:05 PM »
Quote from: frank mccune on March 14, 2016, 08:49:22 AM


    

     One could remove all traces of the old covering or just cut out the open bay areas and not remove the covering that is still attached to the solid wood structures. I have  seen the entire covering removed and a new covering of silk, silkspan and cote applied. The recovering this way looked like it was a new finish job!  It is a huge amount of work to take the old covering off down to bare wood gain.
                                                                                                          Frank MCcune


Frank,
Personally, I'd strip ALL the covering off. Get some paper towels, cut them in quarters (and fold them in 1/4'ers too) and soak in some acetone or
lacquer thinner and start wiping. The top layers will come off and then the covering. It is fairly easy but it takes a day or so to do.

I've recently stripped Ted Fancher's Chisler this way, but I had to use epoxy/paint stripper (with gloves) due to the finish (not dope). Now I'm waiting for some good weather to shoot some clear on it. Seems like every good day that comes along I have to work (BB-sit the grand kids).

Almost done, Jerry
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 12:49:35 PM »
        Hello Charles:

        As we speak, I am doing a Nobler and a Magician.

        In the past, I just patched the holes with silksapn adhered with clear dope.  I then sprayed some enamel over it and it looked pretty good.  This was simple but the I have stripped the Magician off of wing and sanded the old tissue that is still stuck to the leading and trailing edges.  In the past, silk proved to provide the best finish though it is a bit more time consuming than a cote finish.  I still have not mastered a great looking cote covering job.  With silk, I am able to pull out all of the wrinkles and sags.

                                                                                               Be well my friend,

                                                                                               Frank
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 06:20:38 PM »
Frank,

I like using silk also for that reason, I can pull it tight and remove all wrinkles. I also pin it, mostly at the tip.

Interesting about iron on, I don't like doing it which is probably why I cannot master it. It would save a bunch of time for me.

How old are the Nobler and the Magician? Best guess.

Will you do a re-build build? RBB.

Charles
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2016, 06:59:37 AM »
     Hello Charles:

     From my understanding, both of these planes were built in the 60's.

     I tried to cover the holes with an iron on film but it turned into a disaster! I could not get the film on solid surfaces without many wrinkles and it failed to shrink enough on the open bays to remove all of the sags.  Next step is a silk and dope covering job.

                                                                                                             Be well my friend,

                                                                                                             Frank
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 07:06:58 AM »
Quote from: frank mccune on March 15, 2016, 06:59:37 AM
     Hello Charles:

     From my understanding, both of these planes were built in the 60's.

     I tried to cover the holes with an iron on film but it turned into a disaster! I could not get the film on solid surfaces without many wrinkles and it failed to shrink enough on the open bays to remove all of the sags.  Next step is a silk and dope covering job.

                                                                                                             Be well my friend,

                                                                                                             Frank

Frank,

So you will be removing all the covering. Correct?

Charles
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2016, 07:58:29 AM »
What I have done:
Pull the old covering
Inspect the joints and structure.  Reglue joints if needed or otherwise correct any problems.
Decide how much of remaining old covering gets stripped.  I chose to leave the remaining covering.
Cover the wing like it is a fresh structure.  No piecemeal here.  Film or dope and tissue/silk.  I used film.

At some point repaint/refresh the paint on the rest of the airplane.  Depending on a number of factors I may cover before paint, or after.

If the plane is a display, or sport then weight is less critical.  If you expect the plane to be somewhat competitive then removing as much old covering from the wood as possible is important.  Consider stripping all the old paint for something that you intend to compete with.

Phil
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2016, 08:23:39 AM »
"Dad's" paint stripper (per Randy Ryan) seems to work well in removing old finishes and coverings. It's a messy job, but saves weight.
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 12:55:13 PM »
    Hello All:

    Yes, I have stripped the covering from the wing.  I will put a silk and dope covering on the wing as I seem to have too many problems with iron coverings.

    I have to be careful as not to get more time in repairing an old airplane.  I can assemble an ARF in less time than it takes to strip and recover an old airplane.  Which would be better?

                                                                                                                  Be well my friends,

                                                                                                                  Frank
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 01:27:15 PM »
Probably the old plane.  It is likely built better
Phil
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 02:47:45 PM »
If it's well built -- the old plane.  I would do a refinish like this if the old plane had some historical or sentimental value.  Otherwise I'd probably just recycle the engine and other hardware and build a new one.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Recovering very old airplanes?????
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2016, 12:12:01 AM »
I'd be very reluctant to put a lot of time into a recover/refinish until I inspected the entire control system. Some guys just didn't "get it" back then. If you put 40 hours into a recover/finish job, and the control system broke after two flights, you'll be kicking yourself. If you knew the guy who built them was a really good builder, then that makes more sense to me.  D>K Steve
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