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Author Topic: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs  (Read 3254 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2022, 12:13:53 AM »
Wow, it the sun is right, that will keep the judges awake!  You couldn't find a hobby shop in Dallas that has 30 rolls of Monokote!

Just an observation - those wrinkles on the ribs will come out with a heat gun.  But, they will come back.  Mine never stayed gone for more than a couple of weeks.  Then you take them out again!

Having two is not a bad idea.  Pick the best one for the Nats!

Ken
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2022, 11:57:10 AM »
Brendan and crew,
Good job! Continue to build the first one, until you will figure out all of the tricks . At the second model built you will know and apply all improvements in the process.
4 ounces of Monocote is the same weight as 4 ounces of the tissue, dope, paint, polishing, sealing and headache from combustible fumes. But Monocote  is much faster to finish.
I think you acquired the refrigerator just to match the choice of covering color!))

Jerry.
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2022, 07:59:49 PM »
Sorry we went dark for a moment. My 11 year old's interest in building comes and goes. We've been focused on the rear stab and elevator recently. We originally planned on using CA hinges, but were encouraged to look at monokote hinges. We went with the monkote hinges. From the pictures below you will see that we completed that process. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, but I'm glad for the experience to do something different. We're about to start on the modified nose, using the electric housing kit from Brodaks. We will include more pictures as that comes together.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2022, 07:55:24 PM »
Plugging along at a snail's pace but we are finally getting somewhere. Got the wing mounted to the fuselage. In the picture you will see a suspended jigging system that relies on a series of bubble levels and incidence meters to get things squared up. We had to monopolize the kitchen table after dinner to get it together. Also, after we glued it it I came to realize that painter's tape might have been a good idea to help keep epoxy off of our monokote finish. Oh well, having to deal with the mess this time will remind me to tape up next time. With the wing in Angstrom is finally believing that we can get this thing done. To be continued...

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2022, 08:32:13 PM »
   Progress is progress! The only thing I would question is installing the wing before any of the power plant structure is in place. I don't remember if you said it will be IC or electric, but either way, there will have to be some work done on the nose, and that would all be easier without the wing in place. If you need to use a drill press to drill any mounting holes and such, it's easier to be just handling the fuselage. the wings will seem like they are 6 foot long as you try to work on the nose. Any kind of work done on the fuselage is best done before mounting the wing.  Just remember it for next time.

     Have fun!!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2022, 10:06:28 PM »
   Progress is progress! The only thing I would question is installing the wing before any of the power plant structure is in place.

Yup.  That.

I prefer to get wing, fuselage and tail completely built and then marry them together.  If nothing else, you end up working with smaller pieces.

Fear not -- you've made your job harder, but not impossible.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2022, 10:45:11 PM »
With the wing covered and lots of nasty stuff to come getting it done, make some pants for the wing out of butcher paper or brown wrapping paper and cover them.  Or, plan your trim around the smudges you will pick up!  The plane in my Avatar is a Surveyor.  It got it's name from all of the benchmarks it picked up when I was building it.  Another FYI for later.  Spray paints like Rustoleum, Krylon, etc. work great over Monokote.

Almost forgot - Looking Good!

Ken
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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline jerry v

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2022, 09:41:47 AM »
Angstrom’s smile tells us about project going well!
If the electric conversion battery/motor box is one unit, it can be installed anytime. No box now give you more space to work around wing installation.
If you plan to use a passive  timer, it will be good idea to turn motor mount faceplate 3 degrees out of circle. If the box is already finished, maybe you can use the washers under motor mounting area to turn the motor out.
Any “runs” of extra epoxy can be cleaned with the alcohol , thinner or acetone before epoxy sets. You will have a good practice of it during flaps installation.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2022, 10:26:21 AM »
If you plan to use a passive  timer, it will be good idea to turn motor mount faceplate 3 degrees out of circle. If the box is already finished, maybe you can use the washers under motor mounting area to turn the motor out.
Ditto's - The F-Twister responds well to motor offset.  Better than rudder.  I had the same 3 degrees in mine with a passive timer.

Ken
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Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2022, 10:01:12 PM »
Hey guys, thanks for all the good pointers since my last post. On our next build it will be helpful to review this journey to remember all the lessons learned. When we installed the wing, we already had our boxy Brodak electric conversion kit put together and fit tested for the nose. We ran out of time that night to glue it in, but have done so since. We also got the tail and rudder installed. We gave a little bit of offset (hope that is the right term) to the rudder. Also, we preplanned using a washer for motor offset, but now recognize that it would have been easier and more stable to design the offset right into our wooden conversion kit design. Oh well, it's just one more lesson learned along the way. Another lesson learned is remember to install the landing gear hardwood before the doublers. I spent some time today carving out some balsa between the doublers so that I could insert some maple for landing gear einforcement. It was  relatively short work, but would have clearly been easier before the doublers.

Tonight's picture is after we did some work during the Friday videocall. After we fine sand the fuselage it's time to monokote. Angstrom is getting pretty excited that the plane has the appearance of nearing the end. But when I reminded him of flaps, control system, and landing gear (after the fuselage), it seemed to set in that we have a ways to go. We continue to appreciate the tips and thank you all for supporting our efforts. I'm just hopeful that after all this work the plane doesn't fly like a dog. To be continued...

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2022, 08:19:52 AM »
We are coming down the stretch. Still got landing gear and control system to finalize. Also got to put on the flap, but are very close to having that installed.

Unfortunately, we have a monokote issue. As many know, we precovered the wing before installing. Angstrom was really excited to use a chrome covering we had but I remember someone telling us that a finish like that (while beautiful) also screams "hey look at this" when you have any imperfections. We had some covering issues towards the wingtips, so we recently tried to address those with a patch job. Unfortunately (see pic), a patch job does not seem to work out well using our chrome covering (not sure of brand) You will notice that heating it also pulls at the edge and starts shrinking the whole patch (not just the middle). I tried several hours of fixes and the chrome pic you see is the best I could do.

As an alternative, I tried a different covering  as an experiment (see other pic). It was easy to work with and tightened up well. I think we are just going to add color to the wingtips to avoid the chrome nightmare we have been having. However, are there any tricks to get around the problem I was having with the chrome patch? Surely, there has got to be a reasonable way to do patch job to use that type of covering as a patch.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2022, 11:25:07 AM »
Surely, there has got to be a reasonable way to do patch job to use that type of covering as a patch.
Patches are difficult with film coverings.  Here is my "procedure".  There are two places the covering will shrink away from the seam on an open bay.  The edge of the patch and the edge of the existing covering.  I cut the opening so that I can fold the existing covering over into the bay and seal it to a rib/spar/te, anything so that it doesn't pull back when you heat the patch.  Don't try and remove any wrinkles or slack covering at this point, just get it securely attached. Cut the patch to overlap about 1/2" and seal the edges all the way around.  I usually use a sealing iron and seal it about 1/8" wide ALL THE WAY AROUND.  I prefer a gun for most shrinking but for a patch I use an iron.  Shrink the patch from the center out until it is tight then go around and seal the edges again with a sealing iron moving it from the center of the patch outward smoothing the seam and forcing the bubbles that always form on a "Mono to Mono" seam to the edge and out.  You do this to keep it from shrinking at the edges.  Once it cools and the glue is set you can use a gun to get the wrinkles out. 

A couple of overall comments - don't worry about the wrinkles over the ribs for now.  They are going to keep coming back over and over for years.  It is the nature of the beast.  Learn how to tighten it up before you fly without warping anything.  Whatever you do do not use an iron directly on the ribs and never use a gun on an edge.  You need to heat the surrounding area and when the wrinkles are gone pass the gun over the rib then rub it with a cloth.  I use thick cotton gloves and use my finger.  This will keep them out a bit longer.  You can also use a rather high setting and hover an iron just above the wrinkles till they shrink out.  Again, the cloth rub.

Don't forget - you can paint MonoKote.

Ken

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USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2022, 11:58:28 AM »
  Iron on coverings take a lot or practice to do well. Nothing automatic about it. Most of the coverings don't shrink as much as you would think, with 117% being the most I have ever heard of, and it can vary in the same brand from color to color. With any iron on covering, it needs to be pulled as tight as possible when applying it. Get it as wrinkle free as possible and don't rely on shrinkage to tighten things up. I'm sure there are videos galore out on the internet but as you watch them keep an open mind about the finished product. Multi color jobs take some planning. I have never tried mixing brands so don't know what works well over what. Applying trim colors using iron on material takes some practice also, and try to keep the sections from being too small. Apply with a lower heat and when finished go back over everything with normal heats. Trim colors can be painted on by scuffing up the surface and then apply the spray paint. Apply the paint sparingly. A clear coat over the paint is desirable also. Stick with the solid colors available from Rustoleum and X-O-Rust. You won't learn all of this over night and on your first model, so document this airplane well so you can refer back to it as you progress, so you can see the differences.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2022, 12:48:01 PM »
... I have never tried mixing brands ...

I have!

Monocoat and Orocover (Ultracoat) play pretty well together; they have pretty compatible heat ranges.

Cheaper and lighter coverings tend to use lower temperature.  If you try to use a high-heat covering with a low-heat one, you'll tend to overshrink the lower-heat one just sticking the higher-heat one down.  So you really want to try to use compatible heat ranges, or put the low-temp stuff over the high-temp stuff (and keep in mind that you'll have subsequent problems with repairs).

... Most of the coverings don't shrink as much as you would think, ...

I haven't personally experienced the chrome stuff, but I understand it shrinks less than the other types, because the "chrome" is vacuum-deposited aluminum that just doesn't want to shrink.  So it's even more challenging.

As an alternative, I tried a different covering  as an experiment (see other pic). It was easy to work with and tightened up well. I think we are just going to add color to the wingtips to avoid the chrome nightmare we have been having.

Yup.  Just make both wingtips the same and folks will think you did it on purpose.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2022, 01:31:05 PM »
I haven't personally experienced the chrome stuff, but I understand it shrinks less than the other types, because the "chrome" is vacuum-deposited aluminum that just doesn't want to shrink.  So it's even more challenging.
I used the silver ONCE.  Hard to shape on tips and the flash from the wings, if the sun was just right, was distracting.  Made the rounds look like they had flats.  I can do flats in my rounds just fine thank you, I don't need fake ones too!

Ken
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2022, 01:52:33 PM »
I've tried silver twice, once with monokote the other 21rst Century, both were a nightmare to work with, wouldn't shrink worth a darn.
My purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2022, 04:54:32 PM »
Brendan and the crew, if you can handle chrome Monocote, you can handle any film covering!
Here are pictures of combat “plant “. Mother Earth was nice and soft.  Only broken prop and cracked LE. It’s a 1/4x1/4 spruce, no foam, no sheeting. Landing gear attached for stooge takeoff. Open frame, like the Twister. Covering is Monocote chrome. You can see patches, wrinkles and imperfections. The seam can be sealed carefully with CA glue. It takes time, because plastic is not soaking any glue)) Next day finish at the glue area looks like milk. All you have to do is to use polishing compound and practice for future painted stunt ships.
This is the last of Mohicans from Dallas ‘99 combat event. Roy Glenn, Andrey Nadein and others maybe remember the chrome finished models powered with Diesel engines . Bill Lee, thanks for supplying the ether!
 I still have at least 60 ft of chrome and 106 feet of aluminum Monocote to utilize on disposable models)).

Jerry
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Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2022, 10:13:15 AM »
Thanks for all the monokoting tips. While the chrome is nice looking in theory, it is hard to work with. We accidentally used an uncovered trim iron on it and it left a scratchy looking spot behind. Oh well. We did redo both wing tips and things are looking good. Below you will see Angstrom installing our flaps. We originally did the elevator with monokote hinges, but found that to be a little exhausting. We went with CA hinges on the flaps and it was a lot easier process! It's finally looking like something we are going to be able to get in the air. We are going on a big trip starting tomorrow, so our posts will go dark for a moment, but when we get back it will be a mad scramble to get this done in time for the Brodak Fly In. To be continued...

Offline jerry v

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2022, 11:43:13 AM »
Brendan and Angstrom, your project looks almost finished!
Any scratches and smudges from iron work on Monocote can be cleaned with acetone, and polished with polishing compound. Chrome Monocote is like a mirror, it will highlight any decals of shapes and colors, applied over the wing and stab. Fuselage with all of the complicated edges, curves and corners feels like a piece of cake to cover in the blue, compare to chrome?)) I was thinking to suggest to paint the fuselage to make it easier, but you did a good job!
After the time and effort involved in the build of the Twister Angstrom may fly it too carefully- it is a common feeling you have to deal with.
Have a safe trip!

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Fancherized Twister Build Chronicle for Jr. NATs
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2022, 11:59:46 AM »
One more quickie on MonoKote.  White, and most of the standard colors are super easy to work with.  Everything I build now until I am able to get back to the Nats is first covered in white MonoKote, head to toe.  Then I paint trim.  If you were able to do anything with Silver, you are already way ahead of the game on white.  Get it in the air!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke, don't fix it.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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