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Building Tips and technical articles. => Building techniques => Topic started by: Phil Krankowski on November 06, 2014, 04:59:34 PM
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So I broke my ARF flite streak, pancaked inverted on the maiden flight knocking the nose off, and I am building a "stretch" version fuselage.
When I drew on my Flite Streak plans to extend the fuselage I noted that there is about 1 1/2 degree down on the h.stab. I completely missed this detail until I extended the line to make a template to build the stretch fuselage.
I built two flite streaks that are not yet finished without the "down" on the stab. I have checked, and rechecked this fact. They are painted and waiting for covering (I don't have the color I thought I did), and final setup of the engine and controls. The intended purpose of these planes is to learn the modern pattern.
How much effect will the effective "up" on the stab have on the overall flyability of these two planes? Should I cut the stab out and redo it per the plans, or not worry about it?
Using two good metal rulers I compared the thrust line to the wing and stab, the down on the stab is to make all three lines parallel.
I am leaning to not worrying about it, but don't want to have complete dogs over this little detail.
Phil
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Setting up 0-0-0 on incidence, thrust line, and stab should be OK.
There's a camp that says that you should put a tiny bit of positive incidence on your stab (LE up, about half a degree). I never do that, and my planes seem to fly OK.
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Setting up 0-0-0 on incidence, thrust line, and stab should be OK.
There's a camp that says that you should put a tiny bit of positive incidence on your stab (LE up, about half a degree). I never do that, and my planes seem to fly OK.
...so cut it out and fix it.
Phil
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No no! You misread what I wrote, or I didn't express myself clearly, or something.
If your motor, wing, and stab are all level, finish up the planes and go for it! If the LE if your stab is a hair up (positive incidence, giving a bit of "down") -- finish up the planes and go for it! If there's a lot of negative incidence on the stab, giving a lot of "up", then you may want to consider hacking things apart. But even then, it'll only show up when you try for really smooth level flight, and if you're still trying to learn how not to crash, that should be the least of your worries.
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Phil, my recent Skyray kit fuselage was cut with a tiny positive incidence on the stab. I noticed because I was enlarging the stab and found its deck not quite parallel with my main centerline through the wing and engine. I fixed it without any questions, but found out later that another Skyray kit builder had seen the same thing on other kits. If we hadn't seen it with our superior observational skills, I bet it would have flown just fine. I vote for leaving it too.
Rusty
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Fix it. The few minutes work will be worth it. Fighting a goofy airplane doesn't help your flying much .
Dave
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I'll look carefully at the finished planes and see how they actually went together. The plans call for a tiny bit of "down" which is actually bringing things to 0-0-0. I have a bit of "up" if everything else went together as straight as I expect, so this is negative incidence (about 1.5 degrees in fact).
Rusty, I think I did a bad pattern to do what you did. I would have never noticed I made this error if I wasn't extending the lines to draw the stretched fuse for the rebuild.
(speaking of drawing I went over ellipses today...Ugh. My paper pattern looks pretty nice for the 30% larger stab on the stretch streak.)
Dave has a good point since I am cutting into the ARF already.
Phil
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I have noticed on several profiles that the flat rear top of the fuselage is a hair above parallel to the centerline, but the stab cutout is parallel. I've seen the same thing on the full fuselage Papoose plans.
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I am using a wooden box that measures square. I have a 1/8 inch shim under the TE, with the fuse flat to the table. The bag is to save my cutting mat. This is the stretch fuselage and 30% oversize horizontal stabilizer. The elevator (currently used as the shim) is the same chord as original, but wider to match. The chord of the h-stab was increased by an inch to make it cosmetically work.
Now if my daughter naps I might get the taking apart done!
Phil
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Phil, do you have an incidence meter? The way I verify 0-0 alignment of wing and elevator is to put an incidence meter on the wing and get things blocked up until the wing is dead level. Then I check that the horizontal stab is level, either with a machinist's level or an incidence meter.
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Phil, do you have an incidence meter? The way I verify 0-0 alignment of wing and elevator is to put an incidence meter on the wing and get things blocked up until the wing is dead level. Then I check that the horizontal stab is level, either with a machinist's level or an incidence meter.
No, I don't. I might have to do something about that.
Phil
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Get one. Or build one. There's plans around (now, if only I could tell you where to look).
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http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML)
Kinda spendy, but very well built.
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http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML)
Kinda spendy, but very well built.
I added that onto the order I was working on. I also ordered pin hinges, among other things. I wish my local hobby shop was less than an hour each way.
Phil
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Argh! I am mixing threads. Parts of this story are found in the ARF thread I started earlier.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,36388.0.html
I will be continuing in this thread.
Phil
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Phil,
It's nice to see you're carrying this build, profile or not, to a good level. H^^
Above the bar so to speak.
I built Flite Streaks in the past, way past! One of them, I actually shortened the tail but added flaps.
Turned on a dime!
I just built a FS, the SKYFALL 007. I put everything at 0-0-0.
I only increased the elevater area. Fox 35 powered.
I may never fly it, I just might get it bronzed. Yes, I'm kidding.
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Rustoleum painter's touch x2 primer is ... gummy... after overnight cure. It wasn't balling up, but it sure was packing into the sandpaper in a most unpleasant way. I dug out a power sander, the 1/3 sheet vibrating type, to finish. The same paper didn't load up and it cut faster.
I am trying to emulate the original color scheme on the rebuilt fuse. I put white Rustoleum painter's touch on for the canopy area, I'll try and mask to shoot red tomorrow, and if all goes well I'll mask and shoot the navy blue in between by the end of the week. (I couldn't find flag or insignia blue)
Maybe I can get the sheeting fixed this week too.
Still waiting on Tower for the rest.
I need to get a picture or two up here.
Phil
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So I got paint on the replacement fuselage. Looks good. 14 days then I might hit it with polyurethane, maybe...maybe not. Haven't touched the wing yet, have to still decide if I will go for BOM and strip the whole wing or if I will just open the center where the sheeting is damaged and patch the covering there. I am strongly leaning to patching, IF I compete, I doubt a couple appearance points will make any difference in how I place. (yea, still an if.)
The light blue one, with the failed paint, is leveled, 0-0-(0) (no engine holes yet) I leveled the stab then checked the wing, and after accounting for calibration error it was in fact -1.5 degrees on the stab, so "up" trim. I carefully cut it out with my vibrating saw. I pinned the stab in the gap left by the saw kerf after carefully cutting it out. (7 pins!) I then checked square to the main spar, level to the main spar, and 0 incidence to the main wing. Check, double check, a drop of CA, let it cure, triple check and check again, then a couple more drops of CA. I should have kicked as the CA bridging the gaps took an hour to cure! I just packed the entire gap with epoxy now that the CA is cured and a final round of checking had been done.
The Robart incident meter is rather well made and easy to use, if plastic. The parts are stoutly formed. I wish mine was calibrated. Now I have to RMA the thing for repair and I have only had it for a day! The spirit level agrees with my torpedo level, so I ran with it since 0-0-0 is the desired result.
As to the failed dope coating I think I will gently use a clean wire brush and strip whatever is loose, then sand lightly, followed by Rustoleum primer (NOT the X2!) then whatever color Rustoleum suits my fancy and I already own. I am sure the failed coating is because I abused this batch of very old dope with too much thinner.
Phil
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Scrubbed, scraped, sanded, and shot primer a couple days ago. Rustoleum Stop Rust, I think, killed the can. Spackled with DAP Fast & Final lightweight spackle, then a few hours later sanded down to the blue and shot Rustoleum X2 grey primer, followed soon after by Navy Blue Rustoleum painter's touch X2. I timed the dry interval aiming for 30 minutes. Tomorrow, weather and nap time permitting, I will mask and shoot red and/or white... I will try to mask both with a paper bubble over the white since that will only be the canopy.
I was considering leaving it all navy, but I think I like the colors better. I might need a new elevator since I wrapped this one in white monokote, intending to have white wings. Cutting such a simple elevator is probably easier than unwrapping the monokote!
I haven't touched the ARF wing yet, it will wait till after next weekend, Thanksgiving and all is in the way.
Phil
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Half the lights stopped working in my garage...
Anyways, just unmasked. Putting a bubble over the white worked pretty good.
Phil
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Tore into the damaged ARF wing today. I think this is as far as I am getting today.
These are really all "after" The middle 3 ribs were broken. The center I think will need a sister since it is not even close to straight. There are 5 or so pieces that were glued back in. The other two were 3 and 2 pieces to glue back in.
The LE was cracked, seems pretty clean. I glued it then cut a groove and inserted a 3 inch piece of 1x3mm carbon fiber. I think that will be much stronger than original. The top and bottom spars show no damage.
I "uncrimped" the leadouts and tried to pull messenger lines (ha ha) so stripping the entire wing might be a requirement. Uncrimping went perfectly. I used a large pair of pliers, and a 1/8 inch rod (screwdriver shank really) and grabbed the crimp on the creases, and squeezed to the rod so as to not re-crimp. There are a disturbing number of broken strands after dissassembly. The bellcrank is the beefiest hunk of metal I have ever seen as a bell crank. It is STEEL. It appears 1/16 inch thick, maybe thicker. The brass bushing is a 2-part affair with a press fit. I would happily reuse the bellcrank without second thoughts if I can enlarge the holes as necessary. The pushrod is rather thin material nowhere close to 3/32 and will be replaced.
Bell crank measures .060 thick steel.
Phil
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Phil,
I've been peeking in.
Did you say you put a magnet on the bellcrank to see if it was steel?
The model is coming along and shaping up.
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Yes, I put a magnet on it, and it is steel. I think it might be chromed to look pretty..maybe. Lacquered cold roll can be pretty bright looking too. It is also fairly heavy.
This surprised me as I know I have repeatedly read about soft aluminum bell cranks in the ARF Flite Streak. This may be a nice recent change. The lead outs are nicely crimped, and doubled, as seen in the picture. The ends were nicely crimped too without showing any damaged wires that appeared upon uncrimping. If I hadn't needed to dig into the wing I was not planning on changing them since they looked so nice. My goal in uncrimping was more to save the eyelets than the wire.
Since I am this far I am tempted to go BOM legal because I can...and the dark color appears black instead of navy like I painted the fuse :-\ I have a goal of competing at some point.
Phil
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Take my word for it, if it started life as an ARF it is still an ARF no matter what you do to it. My self I don't care as I completely redid an ARF Oriental. It is still classed as an ARF.
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Take my word for it, if it started life as an ARF it is still an ARF no matter what you do to it. My self I don't care as I completely redid an ARF Oriental. It is still classed as an ARF.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,36623.0.html
Not according to this. The wing structure is the only assembly being saved. Yes, the wing is, and always will be an ARF wing. There is nothing ARF about the fuse or controls. Whatever bell crank I use will need drilled out for the push rod.
Anyways I might not even be ready to compete next summer, even if I can arrange time to. At this point in my flying a few appearance points won't even start to fill in the hole from lack of skill and practice.
Phil
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That's a Fox bellcrank or a copy. The center in steel but the rest is aluminum.
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It probably is a copy of something. It sure does look like the Fox bell crank on Brodak. This one has a yellow brass center and the rest is steel. A magnet sticks to the arms, but not the center. I can't drill it by hand either.
Phil
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Steel bell crank brought to you by the letter A and a 1943 steel penny.
Phil
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Make sure you bush the ends for the lead outs. Now for the push rod hole I now use 4-40 ball links. No wear on the hole.
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I'm going to use tubing to make bushings. I haven't decided if I am using the steel ARF crank or a Brodak nylon crank. The steel ARF crank was also drilled funny, the lead out holes were 3/32 already. Part of my problem was a dull drill bit, solved by a new bit. With a power drill the crank holed drilled very easily like mild steel.
I couldn't find my last pack of Brodak lead out wire, so I ordered stuff from Brodak including more lead out wire. I am floored by the service, I ordered late on the 11th, and it shows up today (13th). I have had overnight service if I order earlier in the day! (yea, PA to OH isn't that impressive)
Since my wire is missing, I tried to use the ARF wire, and it is 7x7 wire, hair fine strands, and seemingly impossible to pass through tubing. I'll save it for something. I'll probably find my missing wire tomorrow.
I have looked into ball links before, and have decided against for now. These are Flite Streaks. It is getting .25 or .20 engines. They will be used for stunt training, so have a limited life expectancy, unlike the (typically larger) nicer planes that are flown in advanced and expert. Ball links are in my future, but I don't know when.
Phil
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At this point in my flying a few appearance points won't even start to fill in the hole from lack of skill and practice.
At this point in mine, too. That's what my coach keeps advising me.
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I am banished to the basement. Legos have taken over much of my former workspace.
Finally did something, I stripped the film off the ARF wing entirely. The wing is built different than I expected. I like how the lead out guides are boxed in. I always used cloth.
I am undecided on pulling the neatly boxed tip weight and putting in a weight box. I would have to make from scratch, which is Minor.
I cut the sheeting to replace the damaged section...then naptime was over, my daughter woke up much earlier than I expected. Not even 1 and a master of the power nap.
Phil
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I can laugh about 2 almost empty rolls of white monokote right? ~> #^ n~ HB~>
I laced up the brodak bellcrank, used spectra to serve the wires, a smear of hot glue and some heat shrink looks real pretty! Problem is the metric bolt from the ARF bellcrank is too big for the brodak bellcrank, and the bolt from the brodak bellcrank passes straight through the tee-nut in the wing... I have another good argument for reusing the steel bellcrank.
I think I will file two nails into clean points so I can expand a bit of brass tubing in the oversize holes, so I can use 1/16 brass tubing on the wires and just use the steel bellcrank. I don't want to tear the bottom off the wing, and the effort is just increasing to change to the brodak bellcrank. (and I really do like this steel bellcrank, almost as much as the nylon brodak cranks)
Phil
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I slapped some balsarite on the wing root, TE, and fixed flaps of these two wings on this truly beautiful afternoon.
Maybe I can make some covering happen soon.
Balsarite doesn't have an "open" time since it is heat activated right?
Phil
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Sick kids on spring break left me alone...
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Now I am on the fence about the remaining airframe. After I am finished with these, I have options. I can fix it as it is. I can also go electric maybe.
I bought a Brodak battery tray for profiles.
http://brodak.com/warbird-electric-conversion.html
I could also build the stretch fuselage for electric and order a rib kit to build a new wing...
Decisions that can be delayed...
Phil
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The stretched fuse should make a better precision stunter. Maybe like a Skyray, only good looking. But for sport, that Streak sure is fun to fly.
Rusty
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Why do I want a pin hinge?
I understand a pin hinge is much superior to a CA hinge because it is much more free.
What advantage does a pin hinge offer over a stitched figure-8 hinge that I have used on most of my 1/2a stuff?
Phil
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ARF wing dry fit to the stretch fuselage. Duo-Bro hinges installed.
Phil
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Properly sewn hinges are great provided the thread doesn't stretch. I pre stretch Dacron line before I sew it. I like the look on some planes. Especially the old models like my Yak-9 and Shoestring.
Rusty
Oops waited too long to post.
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Properly sewn hinges are great provided the thread doesn't stretch. I pre stretch Dacron line before I sew it. I like the look on some planes. Especially the old models like my Yak-9 and Shoestring.
Rusty
Oops waited too long to post.
I got another one to do soon. Good thing everything is RED on that elevator as slotting the hinges made my fingers leak some.
I read up some. Could not locate my slotting forks...so I practiced on some scrap using just a #11 blade. Blew the 2nd and 3rd out of 4 practice slots. Then blew 1 of 4 on each half on the plane... The elevator is rather free after the epoxy cured. I had to pick some cured epoxy out of one hinge, and it feels like it just "clicks" passing level/neutral.
I got primer on the elevator for the other plane that I covered. Hopefully paint this upcoming week. Engine, fuel tank, wheel, tail skid. Getting there pretty quickly. I rather hope they are close to balanced when I am done, but I have lead, adhesive lead even!
I measured the battery tray motor mount from Brodak. I don't think it will fit in the space of the stretched nose. I think I will fix #3 and quit debating ideas... but first I am going to have these in flight ready condition.
Phil
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I found the brand new slotting tool kit this morning. HB~> It was with the control horns I just bought. y1
I decided to cut the film with a soldering iron and glue the wing in. Lined it up, marked everything, cut the film. PERFECT! I masked either slide of the cut, slid it in place, used cotton flocking thickened 30 minute epoxy. I slid everything in perfectly, lined it up, pulled the masking tape and looked at the bellcrank access...ON THE UNDERSIDE of the wing!
??? HB~>
Sometime between cutting the wing and lining it up to glue I apparently flipped it over and set up for backwards flying!
HB~>
thinking amazingly quick I re-masked the wing with fresh tape, and slid the wing onto the fresh tape, then cleaning the wing with paper towel.
::)
Happily my brain did not shut down and I masked further, this time using some newsprint paper. I slid the wing onto the paper, tore the paper free, slid the fuselage off the wing and while peeling the paper out of the fuselage I experienced the happy time that epoxy "kicks" from being fluid to being a stringy solid.
:)
So end result is the paint is not perfect around the wing slot anymore. The covering of the wing is undamaged. I think I can live with this.
y1
Phil
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...used cotton flocking thickened 30 minute epoxy. I slid everything in perfectly, lined it up, pulled the masking tape and looked at the bellcrank access...ON THE UNDERSIDE of the wing!
??? HB~>
Sometime between cutting the wing and lining it up to glue I apparently flipped it over and set up for backwards flying!
Phil
Oh mercy, that sounds like something I could do. I'm glad you noticed it right away. Tell me about cotton flocking, I'm forever interested in gap filling materials. I mostly use pine or balsa dust, depending on what I'm packing gaps in. Some times I use microballoons if strength isn't a big issue. What is it and where do you get it?
I got my Oriental almost finished today. I'll write about it later on here, and in more detail over at CEF. I gotta learn how to put a canopy on. I'll be Googling that tonight.
Rusty
Rusty
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I got cotton flocking from Aircraft Spruce. Comes in a bag, it is cheap, and you get A LOT OF IT. It takes very little to thicken the epoxy effectively. The downside, it is relatively hard to sand since it does not contain a lot of air like microballoons. The biggest upside is that the material is much safer than chop fiberglass for similar thickening power...although after mixed with epoxy I am sure the sanding dust is toxic.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/flockedcotton.php?clickkey=31560
Phil
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Sometimes big labels are needed.
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Maybe I should have looked at this a couple months ago. The screw eye is busted out where the needle valve bracket broke free.
So...can I run the engine like this or will it leak? Or I won't know till I bench it?
I have the twin to this engine, (literal, they came off a twin engine RC plane that was converted to electric by my neighbor) hasn't been benched yet but it is also converted to CL.
I was planning on putting the FP20 on the un stretched streak.
I am going to need this engine in service at some point...
Phil
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Pushrod, not yet soldered
Phil
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Soldered and adjusted for as equal deflection as I can get. I have about 5/8 inch travel in up and down. This appears to be about 20 degrees in each direction. Am I in the right ballpark?
The Top Flite book calls for 3/8 inch deflection.
http://www.top-flite.com/airplanes/topa1000.html
The plans on outerzone do not say.
http://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=2652
I am in the middle bellcrank hole on the re-laced steel bellcrank, and the outermost control horn hole on a Brodak horn, which is about 1/8 inch taller than the original top flite horn.
The elevator chord is the same as on the Top Flite plans on outerzone, and I believe it is the same as the original ARF elevator, I only enlarged one dimension.
Phil
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Maybe I should have looked at this a couple months ago. The screw eye is busted out where the needle valve bracket broke free.
So...can I run the engine like this or will it leak? Or I won't know till I bench it?
Maybe seal it with some RTV. It might work. Maybe you can get a new backplate and a traditional NV through the venturi.
Soldered and adjusted for as equal deflection as I can get. I have about 5/8 inch travel in up and down. This appears to be about 20 degrees in each direction. Am I in the right ballpark?
The Top Flite book calls for 3/8 inch deflection.
http://www.top-flite.com/airplanes/topa1000.html
The plans on outerzone do not say.
http://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=2652
I am in the middle bellcrank hole on the re-laced steel bellcrank, and the outermost control horn hole on a Brodak horn, which is about 1/8 inch taller than the original top flite horn.
The elevator chord is the same as on the Top Flite plans on outerzone, and I believe it is the same as the original ARF elevator, I only enlarged one dimension.
Phil
That should be plenty of deflection. Flite Streaks generally don't need much to chase their tails.
I usually opt for a jam nut rather than solder, but if if's set right, then it shouldn't ever need adjusting.
Rusty
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I think you misunderstood where I needed to solder. The brass threaded end gets soldered to the steel rod, making everything adjustable.
Now all my dad's planes used 2-piece control rod with a brass tube in the middle to allow adjustment via heating the solder joint. 30 years later this is more elegant.
Phil
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I like pin hinges a lot better now. Using the correct tool makes a big difference! 1-2 minutes per slot, 4 hinges, less than 15 minutes and ready to glue!
Phil
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NOW! WITH WHEELS!!
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Fantastic! Streaks are beautiful bird like planes. They'll fly better than you ever imagined. The birdlike look is why I bashed my Skyray to look like a Streak with eagle feathers on the wings and named it Osprey. Unfortunately didn't last long though. But it got me a trophy lol. Waiting for your flight report now.
Rusty
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Still a bit before I am flight ready. I only have 1 engine ready. I am tempted to saw the NVA off the back plate on the unused LA to "save" the back plate from damage.
The LA that was crashed I feel funny about even though I can't find a reason to feel funny. The prop didn't break, the engine didn't ingest dirt... just the NVA broke off the back plate. I'll bench it before mounting it.
Phil
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Hmm....
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y1 I like.
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Nice protection there Phil!
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That's a great idea, good thinking.
Hiya, Dane, hope you're getting some play time now that Spring is upon us.
Rusty
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It is a good healthy chunk of aluminum. I am concerned about the weight, but I think using plywood after fuel proofing or paint would weigh similar.
Phil
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Those brass threaded ends break.
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Those brass threaded ends break.
That's not very surprising. I expect the steel is significantly stronger.
What kind of service life can I expect? Do you know the typical mode of failure?
Phil
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Still missing a few things.
Push rod support
Tip weight on the left one
Fuel systems
Balancing
I almost want to throw the la away with how nice the lines are count to run on the FP!
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It turns out that on the scratch built streaks the nose is shorter than on the ARF, so there is not enough room for the 3 oz clunk tank behind the engine. I'll have to put the tank on the inboard side and not worry about it.
or find a different 3 oz tank than the Hayes chin tank.
Phil
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It turns out that on the scratch built streaks the nose is shorter than on the ARF, so there is not enough room for the 3 oz clunk tank behind the engine. I'll have to put the tank on the inboard side and not worry about it.
or find a different 3 oz tank than the Hayes chin tank.
Phil
Hey Phil
I've had pretty good luck with the 3 oz Brodak #590 oval uniflow tank. I use it on my Shoestring. I had trouble with my first one sucking too much air from the uniflow vent, but John sent me a new one. I'm not so sure it was a real problem either, as I was new to hard tanks, having just graduated from all bladder fed 1/2A and was clueless as to how to properly use a wedge tank. I wish the fuel feed came out of the bottom, but no big deal about that.
Or if uniflow isn't your preference, you might like the #568. Same dimensions as the 590, but standard vent with the feed out the bottom. I use that on my Yak-9 for the Fox 35.
Rusty
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I like uniflow. I never looked for a metal tank because I was planning to use a plastic tank. I will keep this in mind. I have a different plastic tank on order. The HK 90cc tank
https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=71766
either it will fit or it will look better on the inboard side than the chin tank, or I'll use it on a different project and consider a metal tank further.
Phil
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After considerable hemming and hawing, making a guide from aluminum and not liking it, starting one from tinplate and again, not liking it, I went with the old standby and cut some safety pins to glue in.
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On the stretch fuselage I went with rubber bands and formed in place piano wire hooks. I need to shim for up and down movement, but a 5 degree, 1/4 inch wedge is already trapped in place. The rubber bands are temporary till the epoxy cures.
Thanks to Steve Kientz for the suggestion
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,38967.msg399013.html#msg399013
On the scratch built the fuel tank I have doesn't even fit in the space. Still don't know what I am going to do there, other than wait for the HK 90cc tank to show up.
Phil
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That's some crazy talk in this picture...or is it?
The stretched fuse will need a lot of tail weight, so why not add tail without stretching the nose? I can move the engine forward half the way of the stretched fuse without altering the nose, and I can enlarge the stabilizer!
This is the third model which I haven't worked on yet (just to be clear) it also has the misaligned horizontal stabilizer. It also has dope coating failure going on where I used epoxy.
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(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/rknrusty/Smileys/popcorn-1.gif)
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(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/rknrusty/Smileys/popcorn-1.gif)
It ain't like I've never seen it successfully done, half my dad's profile combat ships had this procedure done. This picture however is my Mom's (I think, might be my Dad's) stunt sport plane with the empannage from one of my Dad's grafted on.
(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/17/84/87/39/12080212.jpg)
I have no clue what the two planes were kitted as, even if they were the same design. I do know that effort to maintain the moments was used. In MY case I am changing the moment
Phil
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That's cool, Phil. How many people can say, "My Mom's and my Dad's planes..." My Dad had supposedly done it before I came along, but I doubt if he had much experience. That assumption is based on the unfortunate fact that he taught me to hold the handle backwards. And I don't think he ever attempted to fly any of my Cox models, but he was sure good at gluing them back together. I like that you're posting the details of your work, I enjoy watching builds.
Rusty
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I wish I had though of a weight box in the tail of the other two. This one will have though!
Kinda wish I used a hole saw and did a neater job about it too...
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I wanted the tail as long as the stretch fuselage. I simply used the template from the stretch fuselage and fitted the tail length, allowing a little for cutting and fitting.
I then drove a couple drywall screws into the layers through the tape after using a straight edge to make the top level. I marked my cut with a piece of diagonal tape. I cut with a hacksaw through all layers at once. The results were acceptable, but not perfect.
I cleaned up the cut with sandpaper and fit the pieces together using a piece of angle aluminum to maintain excellent alignment. After removing material and fitting several times I was reasonably happy with the fit. The aluminum was left clamped to the main airframe.
Using cotton flocking I thickened some epoxy and buttered both surfaces to wet them. I then applied more thickened epoxy to prevent voids in the joint. I clamped the new tail section to the aluminum, and drove a skewer through the "top" edge (actually the bottom as it is upside down) I worked thickened epoxy into the joint and scraped it off flat on both sides.
I figure this should be at least as strong as any other repaired flyswattered fuselage.
Phil
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After a few minutes of sanding it looks pretty good.
I did blow some sheeting by not being careful with the pushrod. Alas. Minor.
Yes, I know the pushrod is rather short. I will join an extension to it with a brass tube and solder.
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On to spackling. Dap Fast and Final seems to work well under Rustoleum. I wipe with a moist paper towel so the wood isn't bone dry (I don't want it wet either) and go to town. Most gets sanded off. Overnight seems to be long enough for drying prior to priming.
http://www.amazon.com/DAP-12142-Interior-Exterior-Spackling/dp/B0006MXS1A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429278871&sr=8-1&keywords=fast+and+final
There is a significant depression at the joint on the original wood, and in the canopy from when I dropped it as the aluminum parted from the epoxy...
I am also going to try filling the grain with spackle prior to painting on the stabilizer.
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Slight increase in stabilizer. Other than cracking the rudder a few times while cleaning it up this went swimmingly.
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On to spackling. Dap Fast and Final seems to work well under Rustoleum. I wipe with a moist paper towel so the wood isn't bone dry (I don't want it wet either) and go to town. Most gets sanded off. Overnight seems to be long enough for drying prior to priming.
http://www.amazon.com/DAP-12142-Interior-Exterior-Spackling/dp/B0006MXS1A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429278871&sr=8-1&keywords=fast+and+final
There is a significant depression at the joint on the original wood, and in the canopy from when I dropped it as the aluminum parted from the epoxy...
I am also going to try filling the grain with spackle prior to painting on the stabilizer.
I did this to the elevator, and just hit it with primer after sanding. WOW! It is like I am on my fifth coat of filling grain! I'll sand and prime again, then on to color. I like spackle now!
No picture today.
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Phil,
You've been working hard. H^^
You have a good build here also, photos really make the difference.
Nice changes, change is good.
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Thank you Charles.
I'll get a picture of my battle axe, er, elevator before I start sanding. I have it pinned to a stick hanging in the garage. It is simply a "not that much to see" kinda thing.
I shot a layer of white primer, again rustoleum painter's touch x2, on top of the grey rustoleum painter's touch x2 primer. These products have to cure well before sanding or they don't sand! I rather use the grey professional primer, but I am out of that, and I have what I am using. The end result is the same, except for the couple DAY cure time for the painter's touch primer! I filled the stabilizer with spackle, and will take a shot of that before and after sanding too.
My real fear is the spackle will pop out, but there is so little I think it will glue in very well with the painting.
I think, but am not sure, that the partially repaired tail graft that may be mostly my Mom's plane is a Sterling P51D mustang. Plans are on Hip Pocket. I recall is always being called the "bumble bee" since it is black and yellow with a McCoy 19 or so on it. The original tail duplicated the wing and flap pattern.
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/details.php?image_id=833&mode=search
Phil
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Phil, I've been filling grain with lightweight spackle for years and have never had it pop out. If I use it in a thick application for shaping, like blending a doubler or a cheek block into the fuse, and 1/2A filets, I spread CA all over it with a paper towel when I'm finished sanding. Do that after it dries overnight, and it soaks in and becomes hard as a rock, it can't even be sanded. It's shiny after the CA treatment too. The only crack I've ever had develop was in the filet of my Yak-9 from the Fox 35 shaking. I don't really expect strength, but it looks great and is quick and easy. I prefer Dap, but they're all about the same. Filling grain with primer is too much trouble. I use a thin coat of primer, sanded, just to help the paint adhere. Sometimes I use the Dap on top and sometimes under the primer. I think Hobbylite is the same stuff, just expensive.
Rusty
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Great to know Rusty. I already buttered the other raw wood parts since this is so unbelievably easy and fast!
I also discovered an epoxy booger on the side of the fuse. I may have to mask around it with electrical tape and sand on the booger so it is selected for removal, and spares all the softer work.
I am itching to go fly one of these, but I don't expect to get a chance for a couple weeks... I just have some minor details to complete on the first two: numbers, plumbing, maybe a tail weight box...Those are going to need most of an ounce each. Then again I have adhesive lead weights so I can just let those be ugly.
Phil
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http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET66&P=ML)
Kinda spendy, but very well built.
It is well worth the money. And there is also another brand of these out there if you can find it.
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It is well worth the money. And there is also another brand of these out there if you can find it.
Yes, I do agree incidence meters are well worth the money. Before this I never believed that to be true.
I find pictures of a digital unit, but it is discontinued and out of stock everywhere I find it listed for sale.
Phil
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Build your own incidence gauge! At the very bottom is a PDF.
http://www.alamorcs.org/BuildingInfo.html
Phil
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I have to sand outside, and it is crazy windy today so I don't see anything happening today.
Photographing spackle and grain that is not present is pretty hard...These are after spackle, before sanding on the stabilizer. The joint in the fuselage is spackled and sanded and almost ready for paint... but for an errant glue booger I need to deal with. The elevator is sanded and painted with primer. There is almost no grain showing in the primer. A good sanding then light primer followed by color.
I drilled some small holes in a 1/2 inch stick and pin through the holes to hold parts like this for paint. Seems to work good. Works better if I remember to set up for hinge position first.
I was thinking about making the nose red and the tail navy on this one. The wings will be the same.
I also hope that wavy edge on the elevator is an optical illusion from the camera and background. It won't be hard to straighten up though, some sandpaper on a hard flat surface should do.
Phil
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It ain't like I've never seen it successfully done, half my dad's profile combat ships had this procedure done. This picture however is my Mom's (I think, might be my Dad's) stunt sport plane with the empannage from one of my Dad's grafted on.
(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/17/84/87/39/12080212.jpg)
I have no clue what the two planes were kitted as, even if they were the same design. I do know that effort to maintain the moments was used. In MY case I am changing the moment
Phil
This is mostly my Mom's "Bumble Bee" it had a McCoy 19 on it. We think it is a Sterling S2 P-51
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/details.php?image_id=833&mode=search
but we are not quite positive.
Phil
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Taping hinge lines
I've never done it before when there is a hinge of some type, although I use tape hinges on RC foamies...
Point me at some reading I might have missed please. I have noticed the subject appear in other threads recently.
Phil
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Before or after paint? Or is it paint? If it's Monokote, that's easier, because you can make a cool sealed hinge with Monokote.
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Before or after paint? Or is it paint? If it's Monokote, that's easier, because you can make a cool sealed hinge with Monokote.
After paint. I am using Rustoleum. I should have a full cure on all parts of the first two, the third is in primer still, but I was going with the same process.
I already know that cloth hinges and rustoleum do not get along well as the cloth loads up and becomes stiff and heavy beyond remedy. I have not tried laying in a string or other mask to protect the hinge material for painting.
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Here's a pretty good stert
https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=Tapeing+hinge+site:stunthanger.com
I've had scotch tape, the frosted looking type between my sewn Shoestring stab hinges for 3 years and it's holding up pretty well. I just laid it where I wanted it on the underside of the stab and used a toothpick to press it into the gap before sticking the edges down. That link should have info on the tapes made for the job.
Rusty
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Here's a pretty good stert
https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=Tapeing+hinge+site:stunthanger.com
I've had scotch tape, the frosted looking type between my sewn Shoestring stab hinges for 3 years and it's holding up pretty well. I just laid it where I wanted it on the underside of the stab and used a toothpick to press it into the gap before sticking the edges down. That link should have info on the tapes made for the job.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty. Just what I needed!
Some of those threads also have a bunch of great one-liners.
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Thanks Rusty. Just what I needed!
Some of those threads also have a bunch of great one-liners.
You're welcome, glad I could help.
Now this next bit is off topic, but seems like a good opportunity for some helpful info:
For those who don't know how to do a site specific search, here is how you can look for threads in only one website. Just append your Google search terms with the domain name(in this case, "stunthanger.com"). Leave off the "www" or "http" and all that junk. For instance, in the search I did for taping hinge lines, I typed the following into Google:
Taping hinge site:stunthanger.com
The search terms were "Taping Hinge" and the rest pointed it to this website. It could have just as well been clstunt.com or rcgroups.com. All Google results will then come from only the site you specify.
However Stunthanger searches are peculiar, when you follow the Google links, sometimes you get an archived version of the threads. If you want to see the thread in its original form, go up to the address bar and double click or highlight the address suffix where it says "wap2" then delete that little part and then hit enter... voila, you have the regular forum page. Others are printer friendly pages and don't have the wap2 sufix, which I have no trick for. BUt you can still read them in their plain text form.
I hope you guys find that helpful. I post that once in a while when it seems appropriate.
Now, Phil I will quit hijacking your thread and you can get back to business.
Rusty
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http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,11355.msg99465.html#msg99465
this seems to have real dirt on what tape to buy
Phil
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One done. The unaltered Flite Streak. I'll weigh and post a picture soon.
I drilled a 1 inch diameter weight box into the tail to cover with a 1 1/4 fender washer and #10 screw. I packed 3/4 oz of lead in it, and another 1/4 oz lead taped on the outside AND the steel hardware! It has a plain washer on it now, I have a painted one drying to put in place.
Hinge line sealed with Scotch clear tape.
HK 90cc clunk tank on the inboard side with a 1/4 inch dowel propping the front edge up (inboard side, remember)
Push rod adjusted for even throw. Now I don't have the measurement, but I will double check before I fly.
I am struggling to remember if I forgot anything...
Phil
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30.6 ounces all-up dry weight. This is the to-plan flight streak.
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Sounds like a good weight. Nice job, I love the bird-like Streak design in the traditional colors. I forgot if you said what engine, is it an LA25. I'd think that's about right with a 9x4 for starters. It's going to be fast.
Rusty
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OS 25 LA
APC 9 x 4 prop
HK 90cc clunk tank
The ARF is billed in around 24 oz, so I might be a little heavy on this one. The other one is not going to be much different, and I don't know how the ARF rebuild will fall, my guess is similar too.
Phil
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When you've got the power in a good package like an LA, weight isn't necessarily bad. It gives you a lot more authority in the wind, and the Streak's wings are plenty big enough to fly 30 ounces. It might turn out to be your most capable plane.
Rusty
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Based on how close the stretched streak with the ARF wing is balancing today I may need NOSE weight in the one I only stretched the tail! ~^
I am looking at about 1/2 oz tail weight on the stretched Flite streak using the numbers Tim Wescott gave me here
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,36388.msg379699.html#msg379699
This likely means that without the nose stretched on the third plane, it will come out tail heavy even with the engine pushed all the way forward (about 1/2 inch).
We shall find out in a couple weeks as I get it finished.
Phil
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When you've got the power in a good package like an LA, weight isn't necessarily bad. It gives you a lot more authority in the wind, and the Streak's wings are plenty big enough to fly 30 ounces. It might turn out to be your most capable plane.
Rusty
I shall not be concerned about 30 oz then. There is nothing I can do about it at this point in time anyways.
I shall take my observations about the materials I used and build slightly differently in the future. I plainly see 6 ounces of weight between failed dope coating, repainting, wood that is on the hard side of balsa, use of heavier than needed glue in places, extra coats of paint that could have done without, and several other similar fractional ounce weight adders.
Phil
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I share rusty's opinion, 30oz is fine. I've flown 34 oz ringmasters just fine. Also, on the one you suspect will need nose weight, how about just running a four stroke engine?
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I don't own a four stroke engine. I haven't covered and painted it yet either. I know I am using a lighter weight box in the tail than these two, no steel washer (almost 1/4 oz)!
The ARF rebuild to stretched required 1/2 oz tail weight making it 31 ounces. Pictures later
OS 20 FP
APC 9x4
Hayes 3 oz chin tank
Phil
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Picture!
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I flew the "to plan" flite streak today. Lost the landing gear. Had a line cut on my new lines, put on some spectra lines and flew well with a hand launch. Most of the guys there had never seen a CL plane fly, and even though my skills suck they were somewhat impressed.
Got 2 flights in, lost 2 props... hmmm...
Phil