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Building Tips and technical articles. => Building techniques => Topic started by: Chris Fretz on May 11, 2016, 02:45:54 PM
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So this happened yesterday! HB~> '' Now I am wondering in simple terms what is the best way to fix it? It isn't a beautiful airplane so I am not worried about that. I just don't want to start it an the engine rip my hand off. I was thinking gluing it back together an putting a 1/16 sheet of balsa on top an maybe halfway between the wing? The wing held up pretty good, the stabilizer not so much along with a crack in the body but I am not too worried about that part.
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Chris,
Glue it all back together and then I suggest using 3 oz., or so, fiberglass on the bias (45 degrees) both inside and outside. The outside can be 1 OZ if preferred.
Slop the resin on (after a through clean up), apply the FG and use toilet paper to "mop" up the excess resin BEFORE it starts to set.
I wouldn't bother trying to strengthen it with 1/16" balsa n1
Good luck and let us know how it works out, Jerry
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If you just want it to function -- do what Gerald said. If you want it really looking new, then strip the 'coat off, glue it back up, cut long thin (2-3 inch by 1/2 inch) diamonds out of the sheet, splice in good wood (make sure it fits Really Well), sand to shape, re-cover, and then stand back for incredulous cries of "you put that much effort into an ARF?"
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Liner,
Ouch!
Tower Hobbies sells the Nobler ARF. I'm not sure if they sell parts? Maybe only the fuselage is available for purchase? Maybe.
Someone may have a fuselage hanging around. Ya never know.
Charles
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If you just want it to function -- do what Gerald said. If you want it really looking new, then strip the 'coat off, glue it back up, cut long thin (2-3 inch by 1/2 inch) diamonds out of the sheet, splice in good wood (make sure it fits Really Well), sand to shape, re-cover, and then stand back for incredulous cries of "you put that much effort into an ARF?"
It's not the ARF. It's pretty old, I guess it's the green box Nobler.
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What is a bias?
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You guys love videos so here you go. Tim you know your 46's any thoughts on what happened there?
https://youtu.be/KnfRQ6fMClk
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Liner,
Ouch!
Tower Hobbies sells the Nobler ARF. I'm not sure if they sell parts? Maybe only the fuselage is available for purchase? Maybe.
Someone may have a fuselage hanging around. Ya never know.
Charles
Im saving the ARF untill I have had my fun with this one.
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my guess, you ran out of fuel, or were low enough that it uncovered the pick up, how much fuel are you loading
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my guess, you ran out of fuel, or were low enough that it uncovered the pick up, how much fuel are you loading
4oz tank filled to the rim. Sucked out maybe 3oz after. Ran it a week before an it ran fine.
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What is a bias?
That's when you walk into a restaurant and the hostess sees the color of your skin or hears your accent and puts you right next to the restroom and well away from the kitchen.
Oh, wait, we were talking about fiberglass...
What Gerald meant is that instead of having the fibers run up and down and fore and aft, put the cloth on diagonally so the fibers run crossways (45o).
You guys love videos so here you go. Tim you know your 46's any thoughts on what happened there?
4oz tank filled to the rim. Sucked out maybe 3oz after. Ran it a week before an it ran fine.
If it's a clunk tank it sounds like the clunk fell off and you were sucking air. It's possible that your glow plug chose that moment to die, or some other Bad Juju happened, but given that the engine was perking along happily until then I really doubt that.
I had one plane that had a smooth fitting on the needle valve. Unless you used insanely small tubing it would slip off when the plane went inverted. It did that to me three times at a contest, very reliably running dry about half way through the inverted section of the reverse wingover. I think it's the only contest that I've attended where I came home with the minimum possible score.
That's a really long way of saying that "some other Bad Juju" might have been a fuel line slipping off or other mundane but avoidable thing.
Has it done outside maneuvers OK before now?
What tank do you have?
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That's when you walk into a restaurant and the hostess sees the color of your skin or hears your accent and puts you right next to the restroom and well away from the kitchen.
Oh, wait, we were talking about fiberglass...
What Gerald meant is that instead of having the fibers run up and down and fore and aft, put the cloth on diagonally so the fibers run crossways (45o).
If it's a clunk tank it sounds like the clunk fell off and you were sucking air. It's possible that your glow plug chose that moment to die, or some other Bad Juju happened, but given that the engine was perking along happily until then I really doubt that.
I had one plane that had a smooth fitting on the needle valve. Unless you used insanely small tubing it would slip off when the plane went inverted. It did that to me three times at a contest, very reliably running dry about half way through the inverted section of the reverse wingover. I think it's the only contest that I've attended where I came home with the minimum possible score.
That's a really long way of saying that "some other Bad Juju" might have been a fuel line slipping off or other mundane but avoidable thing.
Has it done outside maneuvers OK before now?
What tank do you have?
Yes it has done outside maneuvers before this.
It has a 4oz clunk tank (clunk is still "clunking")
Of course it coughed an started back up to run itself harder into the dirt. I had to take it all apart an clean the dirt out. Put it back together an the bent glow plug still bench ran it.
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Chris,
Glue it all back together and then I suggest using 3 oz., or so, fiberglass on the bias (45 degrees) both inside and outside. The outside can be 1 OZ if preferred.
Slop the resin on (after a through clean up), apply the FG and use toilet paper to "mop" up the excess resin BEFORE it starts to set.
I wouldn't bother trying to strengthen it with 1/16" balsa n1
Good luck and let us know how it works out, Jerry
Once I glue it together I can't get inside it to put the fiberglass inside. What do you mean by 3oz fiberglass, is that the kind of fiberglass?
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It has a 4oz clunk tank (clunk is still "clunking")
Clunks will still clunk even when they've fallen off the pickup tube.
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Clunks will still clunk even when they've fallen off the pickup tube.
Haha ok, I was making a funny. It is still attached!
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Can I use automotive fiberglass?
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Can I use automotive fiberglass?
As long as it's not too heavy, and as long as you're using the woven stuff and not matting. "3oz" refers to the weight of material either in a square foot or a square yard (I can't remember which). I'm not sure if you can get it that light from automotive suppliers -- you can easily get 1oz and 1/2oz mat from model airplane places.
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As long as it's not too heavy, and as long as you're using the woven stuff and not matting. "3oz" refers to the weight of material either in a square foot or a square yard (I can't remember which). I'm not sure if you can get it that light from automotive suppliers -- you can easily get 1oz and 1/2oz mat from model airplane places.
Ok good to know thanks! How about the resin is that special too or the same as automotive resin?
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The clunk can still "clunk", yet not actually flex through the needed range of motion as the tubing ages. It depends on the brand/quality of the tubing used. Been there...
Use laminating resin, not finishing resin as it contains a wax that migrates to the exposed surface. Paint won't stick to it, nor will another coat of resin without sanding all the surface off.
Good luck.
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As long as it's not too heavy, and as long as you're using the woven stuff and not matting. "3oz" refers to the weight of material either in a square foot or a square yard (I can't remember which). I'm not sure if you can get it that light from automotive suppliers -- you can easily get 1oz and 1/2oz mat from model airplane places.
weight is by square yard,, Tim is correct, 2 or 3 ouncde is appropriate, though you could even use 3/4 ounce as long as you can fit the balsa shards back together well, it wont take much, and 3/4 ounce cloth with epoxy is far stranger than the surrounding balsa areas,,
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weight is by square yard,, Tim is correct, 2 or 3 ouncde is appropriate, though you could even use 3/4 ounce as long as you can fit the balsa shards back together well, it wont take much, and 3/4 ounce cloth with epoxy is far stranger than the surrounding balsa areas,,
Could you give an example of the kind of epoxy to use?
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Could you give an example of the kind of epoxy to use?
Plain old 30-minute (or longer) glue will work, although it's thicker than is convenient. "Finish" epoxy will work -- to my knowledge finish epoxy does NOT have the problem with wax that polyester finish resin does*. If you get the usual Bob Smith Industries finish epoxy you'll see it's got a 20 minute pot life -- this can be extended by mixing it in a flat tray (it warms itself up and cures faster if it's in a deep cup). If you plan everything out before hand, 20 minutes ought to be plenty of time.
* Polyester resin doesn't fully cure when it's in contact with air, so "finish" resin has wax mixed in that migrates to the surface. If you put polyester laminating resin on the top surface of a part, the surface in contact with the air is gummy, leading to much clogged sandpaper and use of "that" vocabulary. My understanding is that it's the humidity in air that inhibits the cure, so in theory you could put a polyester part in a chamber charged with completely dry air and it would cure. I've never done the experiment, so I don't know if it's true. Epoxy hardens in air just fine -- which is why I don't think it has the wax.
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Plain old 30-minute (or longer) glue will work, although it's thicker than is convenient. "Finish" epoxy will work -- to my knowledge finish epoxy does NOT have the problem with wax that polyester finish resin does*. If you get the usual Bob Smith Industries finish epoxy you'll see it's got a 20 minute pot life -- this can be extended by mixing it in a flat tray (it warms itself up and cures faster if it's in a deep cup). If you plan everything out before hand, 20 minutes ought to be plenty of time.
* Polyester resin doesn't fully cure when it's in contact with air, so "finish" resin has wax mixed in that migrates to the surface. If you put polyester laminating resin on the top surface of a part, the surface in contact with the air is gummy, leading to much clogged sandpaper and use of "that" vocabulary. My understanding is that it's the humidity in air that inhibits the cure, so in theory you could put a polyester part in a chamber charged with completely dry air and it would cure. I've never done the experiment, so I don't know if it's true. Epoxy hardens in air just fine -- which is why I don't think it has the wax.
So you can just get epoxy from a hardware store?
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Hardware stores carry epoxy but it is not what you really want, its lower quality, Hobby shops most all carry epoxy and its better,
the best is from specialties houses , West systems, and others,,
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Not ARF but Green box maybe
Don't over think the repair it is ALREADY pranged----- so now not a 20 point contender but a good to fly and learn with plane we need to get back in the air
Clean, clean, and then clean again the joints of any fuel oil
fit and perhaps cut back a bit of the ill fitting balsa/ply
use any good 90 min or longer epoxy
use CF or FG to span the brakes and consider if Ply doubles/tripplers will help with not too much weight added
I tend to span breaks with 1/64th ply under the FG or CG patch
Long ago I used 5 min epoxy and lite FG at the field and the plane, once field repaired, lasted a good many flights until the re-kitting splat from a bad pilot rendered it all one with the cosmos
Take home the engine, tank, controls and pitch the rest of the pre packaged monokote in the field trash bin
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My bad, I was thinking of polyester resin, not epoxy, as Tim has correctly pointed out. HB~>
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So you can just get epoxy from a hardware store?
If it's your only resource, yes. But what Mark said -- hobby shop epoxy is better than hardware store epoxy, and West Systems or similar is even better yet.
This is one of those "don't over think it" things -- if you're going to sit around not flying because you don't have a hobby shop close by, get hardware store epoxy. I'd say follow that up by ordering some from Tower or Brodak or whatever (if you just get one thing get some 30 minute epoxy -- the 5-minute stuff doesn't bond as well and it's weaker, but it's certainly quick). Or, if you get out to a hobby shop once in a blue moon, make sure to pick some up. But use up the hardware-store stuff before you open the hobby shop stuff.
I use epoxy for critical high-strength joints like motor mounts and crash repairs on spars and -- um -- motor mounts (you don't need to use it much, but where you need it, you need it).
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If it's your only resource, yes. But what Mark said -- hobby shop epoxy is better than hardware store epoxy, and West Systems or similar is even better yet.
This is one of those "don't over think it" things -- if you're going to sit around not flying because you don't have a hobby shop close by, get hardware store epoxy. I'd say follow that up by ordering some from Tower or Brodak or whatever (if you just get one thing get some 30 minute epoxy -- the 5-minute stuff doesn't bond as well and it's weaker, but it's certainly quick). Or, if you get out to a hobby shop once in a blue moon, make sure to pick some up. But use up the hardware-store stuff before you open the hobby shop stuff.
I use epoxy for critical high-strength joints like motor mounts and crash repairs on spars and -- um -- motor mounts (you don't need to use it much, but where you need it, you need it).
I went to Brodaks an they had 5oz or 3/4oz fiberglass so I got 3/4 an I got 30min epoxy.
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If it's your only resource, yes. But what Mark said -- hobby shop epoxy is better than hardware store epoxy, and West Systems or similar is even better yet.
This is one of those "don't over think it" things -- if you're going to sit around not flying because you don't have a hobby shop close by, get hardware store epoxy. I'd say follow that up by ordering some from Tower or Brodak or whatever (if you just get one thing get some 30 minute epoxy -- the 5-minute stuff doesn't bond as well and it's weaker, but it's certainly quick). Or, if you get out to a hobby shop once in a blue moon, make sure to pick some up. But use up the hardware-store stuff before you open the hobby shop stuff.
I use epoxy for critical high-strength joints like motor mounts and crash repairs on spars and -- um -- motor mounts (you don't need to use it much, but where you need it, you need it).
How many layers of fiberglass would you use on the outside? 3 to 4 inches long?
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It is sorta one piece again.
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make sure you get back to bare clean wood before you epoxy it,,
looks like it should be a good fix
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The clunk can still "clunk", yet not actually flex through the needed range of motion as the tubing ages. It depends on the brand/quality of the tubing used.
I used Dubro tubing an put the tank in last summer.
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How many layers of fiberglass would you use on the outside? 3 to 4 inches long?
Well, I'd seriously consider patching it with wood (properly, not just by laying wood over the top).
Here's how I'd do it, if I were going to do it with 'glass. Mark (and maybe Tom) will hoot at me and make nasty comments about over-engineering:
First, sand down to bare wood about two inches fore and aft, like Mark said.
Then, cut some 1/8" wide slots about 2" long, spanning the break. You want two or three on top, and at least one on each side on the bottom. Make sure they line up on both sides of the break.
Get everything lined up and glue 1/8" square balsa in the slots (or 1/8" by 1/4", and plan on doing some knife-trimming). Trim and sand to match the native wood.
Now you can handle the thing without it breaking on you, or falling of the pins or whatever. Cut "V grooves" into the break. Trim some balsa to match the V groove, with its grain running lengthwise to the fuselage (you'll be trimming it across the grain, and cursing me). Light "A" grain balsa will work best. You could use styrofoam or Gorilla Glue if you wanted -- you just want to fill things so the surface is flat. Glue that into the break with CA. Sand to a nice contour. Little holes are OK -- you just want the bulk of the break to be smooth.
The reason for all of this rigamarole is because if you just slapped fiberglass over the break it'd have a humongous dimple right at the break, which would be a flexure point that was always bending with vibration. Even new it'd be weak, and with the vibration and it'd probably break off in a week.
Now put on the glass. I think that one layer would do; I wouldn't do more than two.
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This old Nobler has been repaired in the past. I don't think they did a very good job, considering how crooked the body was. At least it is straighter now. Sure is turning into an ordeal. I have discovered the wing is 1 inch longer on the outboard side, unless that is the way it was supposed to be but I doubt it. Other than that I think the original builder did a nice job building it.
Scratch that the inboard wing is 1 inch longer.
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I think that when they're asymmetrical it's usually the inboard wing that's longer -- the idea is to equalize the lift when the inboard wing is moving a tad slower. (Well, one of the ideas -- there's a lot of theories floating around, and a lot of different ways to skin the cat.)
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I think that when they're asymmetrical it's usually the inboard wing that's longer -- the idea is to equalize the lift when the inboard wing is moving a tad slower. (Well, one of the ideas -- there's a lot of theories floating around, and a lot of different ways to skin the cat.)
Ooops scratch that it is the inboard wing that is longer.
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Ooops scratch that it is the inboard wing that is longer.
Lucky you. That's probably what the plans call out. I usually make my original designs symmetrical, because I'm too dumb to figure out the right amount of differential span, and I get confused when folks suggest making the wings unequal but the flaps equal, etc.
Someday I'll learn.
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Ugh! '' I hate working with fiberglass and epoxy!
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Don't feel lonesome about fiber glass and epoxy. When Noblers first appeared they were noted for breaking either in front of the wing or just behind it. As word got around we learned to splice extra wood inside the fuse to reinforce it. Any way you have a great design to work with. Now about clunk tanks, I don't use them unless it is a plastic tank in which you can see the clunk. Do a search on here about Uni-flo tanks or hard tanks. Well I hope your flying sessions go better. H^^
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One potential failure mode for a clunk tank is caused by crashing or transporting & storing the model with the nose down. The clunk falls to the front, and sometimes doesn't get loose and return to the rear of the tank, as is required. A near-shutdown so early in the flight makes this seem likely to me. It sucks, but it's less painful with a 2nd hand plane than with a new one that you just finished. So, how did you store and transport your Noblur?
Z-poxy "Finishing Epoxy" is ideal for applying fiberglass cloth. It's thin and runny, so it'll flow into the weave, saturate it completely, and also penetrate the balsa enough to make a strong bond. I would cut the FG to fit, apply a coat of resin to the bare wood, put the cloth on, push/roll it into the resin, and then apply as much resin as needed to wet it all out. Later, when you do this, you might want to roll across the FG with a roll of TP, to sop up any excess resin. Not so easy to do with wing/fuselage joints, but something to keep in mind for later. You just peel off the saturated TP and put it in the garbage. It'll harden within 24 hours, and is then safe and legal to dispose of in the garbage. WEAR Nitril or Latex surgical gloves to avoid getting epoxy into your system. y1 Steve
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One potential failure mode for a clunk tank is caused by crashing or transporting & storing the model with the nose down. The clunk falls to the front, and sometimes doesn't get loose and return to the rear of the tank, as is required. A near-shutdown so early in the flight makes this seem likely to me. It sucks, but it's less painful with a 2nd hand plane than with a new one that you just finished. So, how did you store and transport your Noblur?
D'oh. I knew that -- why didn't I mention it? Particularly because with my wife and left-handed-me being beginners at this control line stuff, we're crashing right and left (come to think of it -- I've got two clunk tanks I need to check out before I go fly again).
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One potential failure mode for a clunk tank is caused by crashing or transporting & storing the model with the nose down. The clunk falls to the front, and sometimes doesn't get loose and return to the rear of the tank, as is required. A near-shutdown so early in the flight makes this seem likely to me. It sucks, but it's less painful with a 2nd hand plane than with a new one that you just finished. So, how did you store and transport your Noblur?
Z-poxy "Finishing Epoxy" is ideal for applying fiberglass cloth. It's thin and runny, so it'll flow into the weave, saturate it completely, and also penetrate the balsa enough to make a strong bond. I would cut the FG to fit, apply a coat of resin to the bare wood, put the cloth on, push/roll it into the resin, and then apply as much resin as needed to wet it all out. Later, when you do this, you might want to roll across the FG with a roll of TP, to sop up any excess resin. Not so easy to do with wing/fuselage joints, but something to keep in mind for later. You just peel off the saturated TP and put it in the garbage. It'll harden within 24 hours, and is then safe and legal to dispose of in the garbage. WEAR Nitril or Latex surgical gloves to avoid getting epoxy into your system. y1 Steve
Nose down all winter an to the field. But even all winter it flew fine a week before. I would imagine the clunk would still be in front of the tank esp with a nose dive crash and it wasn't.
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Liner,
Your Nobler rebuild is starting off quite well. H^^
Will you turn it into a P-40 as I did my rebuilt Ringmaster?
Charles
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Liner,
Your Nobler rebuild is starting off quite well. H^^
Will you turn it into a P-40 as I did my rebuilt Ringmaster?
Charles
No I'm more interested in getting it flying again. I just need to figure out the silk, cloth or whatever it is.
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No I'm more interested in getting it flying again. I just need to figure out the silk, cloth or whatever it is.
Was it covered with something that looks like cloth, or something that looks like paper? Do you want to cover it with the same stuff, or just get it back into the air in flyable condition?
If you just want to get it into the air, get some 'coat -- Monocoat, Ultracoat, Towercoat, Bob's Really Good Hobby Shop Coat, whatever. Just make sure it's reasonably fuel proof (in these days of electrics there's an ever-increasing number of brands that aren't). Slap it on (you can do really good work with 'coat if you try, so don't think it has to be a wrinkled-up horror).
If it looks like cloth it's silk. You can either get model silk, which costs $omigawd/yard and is hard to find, or you can silk from Dharma Trading (it's on the web, I'd have to search for it by name, so you can, too). You want the 8MM stuff (MM is not millimeters -- it's some market-specific measure). 5MM is lighter, but folks who've used it report that it takes more dope to fill. Figure on $5 or so for enough to do the plane, plus shipping.
If it looks like paper it's silkspan. I don't know where to get silkspan these days, so you'll have to ask. I hear people say they found some, I hear people complain they can't find it. I dunno -- I have a stash of it, and I have some Polyspan (the plastic equivalent), so I'm OK for now. You might try EasyBuilt models, and Sig, or ask on the finishing forum.
For either silk or silkspan you have to know how to cover the model. Basically you get the model prepped, the final prep being two or three coats of clean on the wood, then you apply damp silk/silkspan to the framework and stick it down with dope. It'll dry fairly taught, at which point you paint it with dope (some use taughtening dope for the first coat or two, some don't) until it's sealed, then finish the finish. It's a long involved process to do it right, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone who still needs lots of air time.
(You can do a quickie job with silkspan that rivals the speed of a 'coat job -- but probably won't look as good, and it smells up the house more. Your choice.)
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Was it covered with something that looks like cloth, or something that looks like paper? Do you want to cover it with the same stuff, or just get it back into the air in flyable condition?
If you just want to get it into the air, get some 'coat -- Monocoat, Ultracoat, Towercoat, Bob's Really Good Hobby Shop Coat, whatever. Just make sure it's reasonably fuel proof (in these days of electrics there's an ever-increasing number of brands that aren't). Slap it on (you can do really good work with 'coat if you try, so don't think it has to be a wrinkled-up horror).
If it looks like cloth it's silk. You can either get model silk, which costs $omigawd/yard and is hard to find, or you can silk from Dharma Trading (it's on the web, I'd have to search for it by name, so you can, too). You want the 8MM stuff (MM is not millimeters -- it's some market-specific measure). 5MM is lighter, but folks who've used it report that it takes more dope to fill. Figure on $5 or so for enough to do the plane, plus shipping.
If it looks like paper it's silkspan. I don't know where to get silkspan these days, so you'll have to ask. I hear people say they found some, I hear people complain they can't find it. I dunno -- I have a stash of it, and I have some Polyspan (the plastic equivalent), so I'm OK for now. You might try EasyBuilt models, and Sig, or ask on the finishing forum.
For either silk or silkspan you have to know how to cover the model. Basically you get the model prepped, the final prep being two or three coats of clean on the wood, then you apply damp silk/silkspan to the framework and stick it down with dope. It'll dry fairly taught, at which point you paint it with dope (some use taughtening dope for the first coat or two, some don't) until it's sealed, then finish the finish. It's a long involved process to do it right, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone who still needs lots of air time.
(You can do a quickie job with silkspan that rivals the speed of a 'coat job -- but probably won't look as good, and it smells up the house more. Your choice.)
It has a brittle covering that the bottom looks like on lines in like this fiberglass I'm using to to fix the nose. I patched the wing a couple time with whatever came in old kits like a tissue paper, but sometimes it comes out tight an sometimes loose. Also the finish I get looks noting like how they did it. If I try to slap monokote on it it won't stick to what they had on it, just melts the paint an bubbles up.
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It has a brittle covering that the bottom looks like on lines in like this fiberglass I'm using to to fix the nose. I patched the wing a couple time with whatever came in old kits like a tissue paper, but sometimes it comes out tight an sometimes loose. Also the finish I get looks noting like how they did it. If I try to slap monokote on it it won't stick to what they had on it, just melts the paint an bubbles up.
If by the "looks like on lines in like this fiberglass" you mean that you can see a weave, it's silk. If it's silk, it's almost certainly silk and dope. I'm pretty sure you can stick 'coat to dope if you don't have the iron set too hot, but I've never tried it.
There are specific tricks to getting silk, silkspan or tissue to work well -- Google around for directions, or ask on the "paint and finishing" forum. Getting that really nice finish is time-consuming, which is why I was suggesting 'coat.
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NTSB checking in ;D : Sorry to see your Nobler go in. Somewhat rare that we get to see the event happen on video. Lots of good comments about the cause for the engine s/d. I had a Twister that would not run out the full tank. Clunk tank in service. I think I had only flown it a couple of time and then hung it on the wall for the winter. Come spring it would run out about 1/3 or less of the tank then shutdown. "What the heck?" thinks me. Came to find out the clunk line was holed out inside the tank, and once the fuel level dropped and exposed the hole in the clunk tubing air would enter and the engine would quit. Changed the internal fuel line to the clunk and problem solved. I like Steve's "stuck clunk" idea to
Post engine shutdown routine: This is by no means me being critical or petty, but there may be a possible lesson to be learned based on your crash. I notice that as the engine quits that the plane is head more or less directly toward the camera. The pilot is moving at what appears to be 90 degree's to the airplanes direction of travel, toward the right side of the circle. You gained line tension just before impact, maybe 2 ft or 3ft or so above the ground. Do you think had you moved away from the camera (toward the back side of the circle, if you consider the camera location to be the front of the circle) that you might have gained tension sooner/quicker and maybe pulled it out? I guess we could also ask, is moving directly opposite the direction of aircraft travel the best way to regain line tension or are there other things to consider? I've seen instances where there is an almighty jerk as the lines go tight, and sometimes the outcome is good, sometimes not so good. I know that in the heat of the moment that gut feel more or less takes over and we do what we feel is right. But when you can, sad to say, re-live the event you can look with a more critical eye and maybe gain something from having done so. No ill will intended at all here, just curious. I notice also that the engine seemed to come back to life once it was on the downward path just as the lines go tight. Sort of sounded that way I think.
I hope your repair comes off with good results.
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The engine coming back to life when pointed down is one reason I suggested the stuck clunk theory. Well, that and because Dirty Dan said it happened to him with one or more of his .20FP proviles (sic).
When that "oh, chit" moment happened to me last, I turned around and ran away from the airplane, while holding "full up". Saved it, I did, but the engine didn't come back online for me. I don't recall if it quit in the Clover or OH8, but to save it in either of those two indicates that it was a good plan. This happened at PC in Clovis, during practice for GSSC, just after PTG speared in a Diva, and just before Mike Haverly speared in his JD Falcon. Probably was some sort of bad mojo moving through, huh, Tim? LL~ Steve
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If by the "looks like on lines in like this fiberglass" you mean that you can see a weave, it's silk. If it's silk, it's almost certainly silk and dope. I'm pretty sure you can stick 'coat to dope if you don't have the iron set too hot, but I've never tried it.
There are specific tricks to getting silk, silkspan or tissue to work well -- Google around for directions, or ask on the "paint and finishing" forum. Getting that really nice finish is time-consuming, which is why I was suggesting 'coat.
Yes the weave. I suppose fiberglass an epoxy can start adding some weight huh? I put 2 layers on the front fuse and behind the wing on the fuse.
NTSB checking in ;D : Sorry to see your Nobler go in. Somewhat rare that we get to see the event happen on video. Lots of good comments about the cause for the engine s/d. I had a Twister that would not run out the full tank. Clunk tank in service. I think I had only flown it a couple of time and then hung it on the wall for the winter. Come spring it would run out about 1/3 or less of the tank then shutdown. "What the heck?" thinks me. Came to find out the clunk line was holed out inside the tank, and once the fuel level dropped and exposed the hole in the clunk tubing air would enter and the engine would quit. Changed the internal fuel line to the clunk and problem solved. I like Steve's "stuck clunk" idea to
Post engine shutdown routine: This is by no means me being critical or petty, but there may be a possible lesson to be learned based on your crash. I notice that as the engine quits that the plane is head more or less directly toward the camera. The pilot is moving at what appears to be 90 degree's to the airplanes direction of travel, toward the right side of the circle. You gained line tension just before impact, maybe 2 ft or 3ft or so above the ground. Do you think had you moved away from the camera (toward the back side of the circle, if you consider the camera location to be the front of the circle) that you might have gained tension sooner/quicker and maybe pulled it out? I guess we could also ask, is moving directly opposite the direction of aircraft travel the best way to regain line tension or are there other things to consider? I've seen instances where there is an almighty jerk as the lines go tight, and sometimes the outcome is good, sometimes not so good. I know that in the heat of the moment that gut feel more or less takes over and we do what we feel is right. But when you can, sad to say, re-live the event you can look with a more critical eye and maybe gain something from having done so. No ill will intended at all here, just curious. I notice also that the engine seemed to come back to life once it was on the downward path just as the lines go tight. Sort of sounded that way I think.
I hope your repair comes off with good results.
I suppose it could of helped, not much time to think about it. The time waisted thinking about the last ditch effort could of helped too. The engine coming back on sure didn't help the situation either.
The engine coming back to life when pointed down is one reason I suggested the stuck clunk theory. Well, that and because Dirty Dan said it happened to him with one or more of his .20FP proviles (sic).
When that "oh, chit" moment happened to me last, I turned around and ran away from the airplane, while holding "full up". Saved it, I did, but the engine didn't come back online for me. I don't recall if it quit in the Clover or OH8, but to save it in either of those two indicates that it was a good plan. This happened at PC in Clovis, during practice for GSSC, just after PTG speared in a Diva, and just before Mike Haverly speared in his JD Falcon. Probably was some sort of bad mojo moving through, huh, Tim? LL~ Steve
I'll go through the tank wile it's half hanging out LL~
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I finally sanded the fiberglass epoxy I slapped on. Put it on, sand it off ::)
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I finally sanded the fiberglass epoxy I slapped on. Put it on, sand it off ::)
I have been following this one silently, but, aside from the color, this looks very much like one of my repairs from ancient times! I knocked the nose off of 3 or 4 of my Noblers, in some cases multiple times.
As long as you don't mess up the broken ends too much, you can just push the fiber back together, and hit it with thin Hot stuff, and it will stay, because the shredded ends for excellent low-angle splices. That's how we fixed Bob Hunt's airplane at some NATs - the wind picked it up and broke the fuse right in half about 2" behind the TE of the wing. It was all still attached and all the fibers were intact, so Bob McDonald pushed it back together, and you could barely see the joint. We hit it with thin Hot Stuff and it was pretty much fixed. They beefed it up, it it was probably at least as good as original structurally, with just the glue. The only issue was that the crack fit together so well it was hard to get the glue into the joint, so sometimes you have to poke small holes along it with a pin to give the glue someplace to get into the wood.
If the ends get rounded off, then you do have to resort to doublers, etc. Or, look for the thread where Jim Aron spliced an entirely new nose on his 20-pointer - for a PA65! Lot of people just give up, but these sorts of breaks, even at the wing LE, are almost always fixable, even with shakers like a Fox. It sure takes less time to fix than to build a new airplane.
Brett
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That should hold up pretty well. Just don't lawn dart it.
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I have been following this one silently, but, aside from the color, this looks very much like one of my repairs from ancient times! I knocked the nose off of 3 or 4 of my Noblers, in some cases multiple times.
As long as you don't mess up the broken ends too much, you can just push the fiber back together, and hit it with thin Hot stuff, and it will stay, because the shredded ends for excellent low-angle splices. That's how we fixed Bob Hunt's airplane at some NATs - the wind picked it up and broke the fuse right in half about 2" behind the TE of the wing. It was all still attached and all the fibers were intact, so Bob McDonald pushed it back together, and you could barely see the joint. We hit it with thin Hot Stuff and it was pretty much fixed. They beefed it up, it it was probably at least as good as original structurally, with just the glue. The only issue was that the crack fit together so well it was hard to get the glue into the joint, so sometimes you have to poke small holes along it with a pin to give the glue someplace to get into the wood.
If the ends get rounded off, then you do have to resort to doublers, etc. Or, look for the thread where Jim Aron spliced an entirely new nose on his 20-pointer - for a PA65! Lot of people just give up, but these sorts of breaks, even at the wing LE, are almost always fixable, even with shakers like a Fox. It sure takes less time to fix than to build a new airplane.
Brett
The broken ends fit together pretty good.
What engines were you running in your Noblers? I guess you have moved on from Noblers to better things?
That should hold up pretty well. Just don't lawn dart it.
That's some petty good advice Doc! I was hoping to get to meet you at Brodak's but I see you are not going.
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The broken ends fit together pretty good.
What engines were you running in your Noblers? I guess you have moved on from Noblers to better things?
As long as the fibers interlock, it will pretty much be as strong as it was originally once you apply the glue. I always chicken out and fiberglass over it, though.
I was using Fox 35's in my Noblers. Despite my reputation as a Fox-basher, I put something on the order of 3000 flights on a series of Green Box Noblers with Foxes, and once I got it running reliably, it was fine. At the time (late 70's) there wasn't anything that was tremendously better. Before I got it working on Top Flite Tutors, I probably crashed from "burp" issues maybe 2 dozen times. I finally got it to run, more-or-less, through and entire pattern in the Tutor, my first pattern ever. On the same flight, I went back to try the hourglass again, and of course, 3rd corner, burp, quit, crash. I had some issues with it in the Nobler until I found that the Sullivan round tank fit perfectly and ran well, and I was off to the races. I had something like 7 different airplanes and I flew literally every day for quite a while, snow, wind, etc. and I crashed them all multiple times. I had a set of jigs and I could build and entire airplane, with decent quality (although a poor finish) in about a week.
Another contributing factor is that I always practices by myself and with no help, but with 45 degree markers around the circle, and flew to the correct size no matter what and tried to hit the (at the time) 5 foot radius. That is essentially impossible with a Nobler/Fox, or at least impossible to fly the right size and still have the right shapes, intersections, and bottoms. Forcing it, particularly in marginal conditions, had predictable results. I wish I still had one of the airplane because I would be interested in how well they flew in the trim I flew them. Must have had something right because I could at least get through patterns doing it as I did, and I sure would know better now.
I then moved on to the ST46 in a Dick Mathis Genesis 40FSR kit. I flew that for many years, and went from my first contest to my first 500 point pattern with it. That flew very well although the controls were grossly too fast. Once I got an adjustable handle and got the controls slowed down, it flew very well.
Now I fly my own design Infinity, which is an unabashed evolution of Ted Fancher's "Imitation", but about 4 generations removed so nothing about it is actually like the original design. It was designed on the same basic principles and theories as the Trivial Pursuit/Great Expectations (AKA Star Gazer -same airplane), but shares no details, it was a logical scale-up of the Imitation with a full fuse and a Nobleresque turtledeck to provide great passive yaw stability for additional power handling. It was designed for a 40VF, but has been flown on the 40VF, 46VF, PA61 and currently, the RO-Jett 61 BSE. It might be pretty surprising but while they sound and feel different, their ultimate potential is about the same and I have flown them back-to-back-to-back several times and they are all very good. I am sure there are some pictures of it around.
Brett
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As long as the fibers interlock, it will pretty much be as strong as it was originally once you apply the glue. I always chicken out and fiberglass over it, though.
I was using Fox 35's in my Noblers. Despite my reputation as a Fox-basher, I put something on the order of 3000 flights on a series of Green Box Noblers with Foxes, and once I got it running reliably, it was fine. At the time (late 70's) there wasn't anything that was tremendously better. Before I got it working on Top Flite Tutors, I probably crashed from "burp" issues maybe 2 dozen times. I finally got it to run, more-or-less, through and entire pattern in the Tutor, my first pattern ever. On the same flight, I went back to try the hourglass again, and of course, 3rd corner, burp, quit, crash. I had some issues with it in the Nobler until I found that the Sullivan round tank fit perfectly and ran well, and I was off to the races. I had something like 7 different airplanes and I flew literally every day for quite a while, snow, wind, etc. and I crashed them all multiple times. I had a set of jigs and I could build and entire airplane, with decent quality (although a poor finish) in about a week.
Another contributing factor is that I always practices by myself and with no help, but with 45 degree markers around the circle, and flew to the correct size no matter what and tried to hit the (at the time) 5 foot radius. That is essentially impossible with a Nobler/Fox, or at least impossible to fly the right size and still have the right shapes, intersections, and bottoms. Forcing it, particularly in marginal conditions, had predictable results. I wish I still had one of the airplane because I would be interested in how well they flew in the trim I flew them. Must have had something right because I could at least get through patterns doing it as I did, and I sure would know better now.
I then moved on to the ST46 in a Dick Mathis Genesis 40FSR kit. I flew that for many years, and went from my first contest to my first 500 point pattern with it. That flew very well although the controls were grossly too fast. Once I got an adjustable handle and got the controls slowed down, it flew very well.
Now I fly my own design Infinity, which is an unabashed evolution of Ted Fancher's "Imitation", but about 4 generations removed so nothing about it is actually like the original design. It was designed on the same basic principles and theories as the Trivial Pursuit/Great Expectations (AKA Star Gazer -same airplane), but shares no details, it was a logical scale-up of the Imitation with a full fuse and a Nobleresque turtledeck to provide great passive yaw stability for additional power handling. It was designed for a 40VF, but has been flown on the 40VF, 46VF, PA61 and currently, the RO-Jett 61 BSE. It might be pretty surprising but while they sound and feel different, their ultimate potential is about the same and I have flown them back-to-back-to-back several times and they are all very good. I am sure there are some pictures of it around.
Brett
Snow in California?
That was some interesting reading! I'd say you had a lot of experience with the Nobler! I'm curious though why didn't you give the old Redhead McCoy a try over the Fox? I guess the Nobler has its limitations. I'd be pulling my hair out trying to get 7 Fox's running good n~
I saw a picture of a Genesis in the winter time an thought boy that is a cool looking airplane! I don't know what kind of Genesis it was but I'd like to have one.
You should build one more green box Nobler for old time sake!
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Snow in California?
That was some interesting reading! I'd say you had a lot of experience with the Nobler! I'm curious though why didn't you give the old Redhead McCoy a try over the Fox? I guess the Nobler has its limitations. I'd be pulling my hair out trying to get 7 Fox's running good n~
Well, yes, they got about a foot at Lake Tahoe over the weekend and I think the base is something like 60 feet... But no, at the time, it was snow in central Kentucky. It's not Buffalo or the UP of Michigan, but it was still pretty cold at times.
I actually don't have much hair, however, it was only 2 Foxes, and for the most part, just one individual engine. At one point I had 40 or so gallon jugs stacked up against the wall and that was not all I had used. No one ever said it wasn't durable, and I would bet I could take it out of the bag, loosen it up, and in the same conditions, it would start up within a click or two of the right setting - and yes, I used the stock needle valve and spraybar.
I didn't try the McCoy 35 for a very simple reason - I didn't have one! I did have two Fox 35s, my dad's ~1965 model and the 1974 model I got as a Christmas present. I also would have received strong disapproval for using anything but a Fox, because my dad thought (and still probably thinks) that it was the best stunt engine ever so why would you bother with anything else, like an ST46?
The Fox has some pretty good characteristics. The fact that there are any number of engines designed since 1948 that are much better is a separate point. And, in some ways, it *is* better than an ST46. I sure didn't spend much time taking apart and rebuilding my Fox, which I certainly did with my ST. And I was a layabout compared to a certain 4-time national champion of my acquaintance, he carried 3-4 engine with him all the time and swapped them darn near every contest - of necessity.
I saw a picture of a Genesis in the winter time an thought boy that is a cool looking airplane! I don't know what kind of Genesis it was but I'd like to have one.
You should build one more green box Nobler for old time sake!
Bob Hunt has some familiarity with the design, in fact, I think the original Genesis was the first airplane painted from his 55 gallon drum of brown paint. The Bubba-approved versions were the original 35-sized version, and the monster 720 square inch version for the ST46 with which he won the WC, and also managed to run over with his station wagon. The Dick Mathis version was in-between at 630 square inches, which was supposed to be for a 40FSR, but to my mind was a much better size for an ST46 than the big one. And the 40FSR (and the HP 40 Bob used at the WC) had *much more power* than the ST46, if you could find a way to harness it.
The Genesis was a take-off/inspired by Bill Simon's Gemini, the search for the "zero radius" corner. The big difference was the much larger tail than a standard Nobler-ripoff, to create an "irresistible force" to force the turn tighter and overcome the flap pitching moment better than a Nobler without reducing the lift from the large flaps. It also greatly reduced the effects of the CG shift as the fuel runs out.
Brett
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Well fellas it's not pretty but it is in one piece again. I don't know how you get a smooth finish like it once was. It's almost like they sprayed it cause I don't see any brush strokes in it but I sure do now. I took the tank apart and didn't see anything out of the ordinary, so I guess slap the motor on and do it all over again HB~>
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I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?
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I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?
Personally, I'd fly it and see how it flies. Then if you feel the flap is causing you trouble, make a new one.
As for making brushed on paint look like it was sprayed, thin it to about 80% and put 20-30 coats on. Each coat goes on a different direction and after a while it will start to become a solid color. You'll be amazed how it
looks.
I did my 1/4 scale Fly Baby Bipe this way after a minor crash and it turned out fantastic AFAIC. Now, after another "minor" crash (battery failure) I need to do it again but since I'm not flying RC at the moment..............
Good luck, Jerry
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How is it held on? The warp is pretty bad, I'd want it straight before I put the plane in the air. Whether you try to steam it out, or use dry heat, or just replace it, I think you should at least try to make it better.
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Don't even think of flying with that flap. If cloth hinges, easy to replace. The plane looks good to me and if you are learning you don't need a 20 point finish. Just make it fuel proof. H^^
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Personally, I'd fly it and see how it flies. Then if you feel the flap is causing you trouble, make a new one.
As for making brushed on paint look like it was sprayed, thin it to about 80% and put 20-30 coats on. Each coat goes on a different direction and after a while it will start to become a solid color. You'll be amazed how it
looks.
I did my 1/4 scale Fly Baby Bipe this way after a minor crash and it turned out fantastic AFAIC. Now, after another "minor" crash (battery failure) I need to do it again but since I'm not flying RC at the moment..............
Good luck, Jerry
What kind of thinner do you use? Do you sand it too or just put on 20 coats?
How is it held on? The warp is pretty bad, I'd want it straight before I put the plane in the air. Whether you try to steam it out, or use dry heat, or just replace it, I think you should at least try to make it better.
Cloth hinges.Don't even think of flying with that flap. If cloth hinges, easy to replace. The plane looks good to me and if you are learning you don't need a 20 point finish. Just make it fuel proof. H^^
I flew it a couple times but didn't get too serious with it yet. It did fly pretty good despite everything being crooked. Watch now that I got everthing pretty straight it will fly worse ::)
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If cloth hinges, easy to replace.
How do you do that? I was thinking "glued in = impossible".
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I guess wile I am at it how can I fix this flap? It curves down I guess the wood is warped. Make a new one or try the steam it?
I would sure fix that (and any other similar issues elsewhere) before flying it. I haven't seen anything like that before, and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose! I would try steaming it out with lots of steam, but it might require some cutting - cut slices all the way through, bend it straight, apply thin Hot Stuff. It will take more than just one slice.
Alternately, you could cut away the aft section of the flap, glue on a new aft section, sand it all smooth, and then tissue/paint over it.
Brett
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... and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose!
I've done this by mistake to bare wood. Long-term storage in unheated basements seems to be conducive to this sort of thing. I'm not sure how painting the surface impacts things.
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I would sure fix that (and any other similar issues elsewhere) before flying it. I haven't seen anything like that before, and I don't even know how I would do it on purpose! I would try steaming it out with lots of steam, but it might require some cutting - cut slices all the way through, bend it straight, apply thin Hot Stuff. It will take more than just one slice.
Alternately, you could cut away the aft section of the flap, glue on a new aft section, sand it all smooth, and then tissue/paint over it.
Brett
Now you're taking! I like that idea #^
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How do you do that? I was thinking "glued in = impossible".
Acetone will let the glue release the cloth. It will also remove dope.
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Now you're taking! I like that idea #^
Chris,
Same brand thinner as the paint/dope you are using. I'd only sand any fuzzies off because you're not putting very much dope on. And after 10 or so coats, probably not at all. It should be smooth by them. 20-30 coats may have been an over simplification......But put enough on to get a solid smooth color.
Good luck, Jerry
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I think I most of it out slicing it and using CA. Steaming isn't for me it just melted stuff I didn't want melted. The 46 is happily back in #^
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If you're still flying that airplane when you get to Advanced you should replace the flaps. Otherwise, you're probably golden. Be ready to tweak flaps as necessary to get the wings level in upright and inverted.
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Liner,
I looked at that photo up above, #58.
Looks to me you did a really good job with the repair.
Is the flap all that remains for the fix to be completed?
BTW. Great job matching the paint. H^^
Charles
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Liner,
I looked at that photo up above, #58.
Looks to me you did a really good job with the repair.
Is the flap all that remains for the fix to be completed?
BTW. Great job matching the paint. H^^
Charles
Thanks!
Well I chose the easier route of slicing it an re-gluing it straight.
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If you're still flying that airplane when you get to Advanced you should replace the flaps. Otherwise, you're probably golden. Be ready to tweak flaps as necessary to get the wings level in upright and inverted.
So it would be a good intermediate airplane?
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Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up. Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?
Over all I liked it, I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?
What do you think?
https://youtu.be/dr8LY1STgcI
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Liner,
Ya got a bunch of models on the ground, where is everybody?
That nobler flies smooth.
Did you ever weigh it? I would be interested in knowing the weight.
Local PD took a drive by.
Charles
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Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up. Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?
Over all I liked it, I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?
Just try them and see which one works the best. You might have to re-trim the airplane to get best performance, then you can evaluate.
Brett
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Liner,
Ya got a bunch of models on the ground, where is everybody?
That nobler flies smooth.
Did you ever weigh it? I would be interested in knowing the weight.
Local PD took a drive by.
Charles
n~ they are all mine, I've got too many but I can't stop #^. I weighed it yesterday an now is 53.6 oz or 54.6 I can't remember. It keeps getting heavier the more I fix it.
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Well fellas I got one flight in today with it. I don't know much about trimming but it flew pretty good. It may be a little hard to get it to fly level though, I think it seemed like it kept wanting to rise up a bit. I want to say it was doing the same upside-down but I think what I mean is it wasn't aiming for the ground upside-down it was rising up too. Ehhh really I'm not 100% sure about upside-down but it did seem to want to climb right side up. Is that a matter of the flaps slightly down when level?
Over all I liked it, I was running it on .015X58ft lines, I have .015X61ft but I forgot to change them from the 58ft. What do you guys think I should run with the LA 46?
Set the flaps trailing up or down so that the fuselage is dead level in level flight. If it's nose-up in level flight and plowing the ground in inverted, then you want the flaps trailing down, and visa versa. If the nose is high (as in away from the ground) in both level and inverted you need more flaps to the elevator through (and visa versa if it's low). If you can't adjust the elevator to flap ratio -- don't worry about it.
Have you found yourself copies of Paul Walkers trim articles? Yes, it's a lot of work to go through them -- but it's worth it.
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Hi Liner:
Did I notice a Black and White checking you out in the one film? McKeesport finest on the job. Lol As a matter of fact, I roomed with a chap whose dad that was the Chief of Police for McKeesport while we were attending university. The chap's name was Dennis Hurkla or something like that. This was in the mid to late 60's.
I see that you are pitting and taking off on the infield dirt. This is bad for your equipment. Move out to the grass in the outfield. Your engine will thank you!
Best of luck,
Frank McCune
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n~ they are all mine, I've got too many but I can't stop #^. I weighed it yesterday an now is 53.6 oz or 54.6 I can't remember. It keeps getting heavier the more I fix it.
Liner,
Thank you for that weight. Looks like the OS LA 46 can pull 55oz around quite easily in the pattern.
I'm thinking my OS 30S may pull the ARF Nobler I have? I don't know what an ARF Nobler weighs assembled?
Where did you get all those models? looks like a nice collection.
Charles
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Hi Liner:
Did I notice a Black and White checking you out in the one film? McKeesport finest on the job. Lol As a matter of fact, I roomed with a chap whose dad that was the Chief of Police for McKeesport while we were attending university. The chap's name was Dennis Hurkla or something like that. This was in the mid to late 60's.
I see that you are pitting and taking off on the infield dirt. This is bad for your equipment. Move out to the grass in the outfield. Your engine will thank you!
Best of luck,
Frank McCune
Well actually it's Port Vue, overlooking down on McKeesport. You would probably get shot flying in McKeesport now ;)
I'd have to bring a lawn mower to take off in the grass or cardboard. Besides I like dirt flying in my eyes n~
Eveytime I fly down there the police drive by, they probably patrol the playground an basketball courts.
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Liner,
Thank you for that weight. Looks like the OS LA 46 can pull 55oz around quite easily in the pattern.
I'm thinking my OS 30S may pull the ARF Nobler I have? I don't know what an ARF Nobler weighs assembled?
Where did you get all those models? looks like a nice collection.
Charles
I don't know what the ARF weighs I haven't built mine, an everthing I build seems heavy. I built them all in the 90's. Except the Nobler I bought that on Craigslist.
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Hey when I fly off ball diamonds I use the dirt area for take off. The ARF Nobler I fly once in a while has an EVO .36 which I had to add an ounce of lead to the tail so it would turn is in access of 50 ounces and flies great on .015 X 60 cable. Tank isn't big enough for the pattern, but I'm still breaking the engine in.
By the way some guys not notice the little grass chips from the prop on take off? LL~ LL~
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Well I gave the Nobler a shot at Classic Stunt in the Beginners Circle at Brodak's Fly-in. It was a fun time. All I could muster was 2nd place fellas!
https://youtu.be/wnvlvhTCRmw
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Hey second place says you at least tried and was there. I wish I could be there with you guys/gals. Congrats on the placing.
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Hey second place says you at least tried and was there. I wish I could be there with you guys/gals. Congrats on the placing.
Thanks Doc! I guess it's not bad considering I didn't even know the patten back in April. This year was the first time I tried a square loop an got away from the lazy eight too. I got 2nd on Monday in profile out of 12 people. But I look around at the other classes an say to myself how are they doing everything so consistent an perfect, even intermediate looked like those guys were really good!
I know! I need bigger an better planes! #^
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Hey second place says you at least tried and was there. I wish I could be there with you guys/gals. Congrats on the placing.
Around here, second place in Beginner means that at least two beginners showed up -- woo hoo!
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Around here, second place in Beginner means that at least two beginners showed up -- woo hoo!
So far 12 on Monday an 6 on Tuesday. Will see how many tomorrow, I'm guessing there will be a lot.
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So far 12 on Monday an 6 on Tuesday. Will see how many tomorrow, I'm guessing there will be a lot.
Second out of twelve is pretty good. When I was flying Beginner there were usually three or four entrants, which meant that you could show up, put in an embarrassingly lousy flight -- and get a trophy! Oh boy! It did encourage me to move up to Intermediate quickly, so that if I made a pile of flinders on the first flight I didn't get a trophy to rub things in.
So congrats, and keep at it!
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Second out of twelve is pretty good. When I was flying Beginner there were usually three or four entrants, which meant that you could show up, put in an embarrassingly lousy flight -- and get a trophy! Oh boy! It did encourage me to move up to Intermediate quickly, so that if I made a pile of flinders on the first flight I didn't get a trophy to rub things in.
So congrats, and keep at it!
Thanks Tim! How do you advance from intermediate? Do you have to win?
I noticed a few things at the Fly-in, everyone had pretty airplanes an I had the most beat up airplanes there LL~ I saw a lot with trim tabs too.
On Monday my second flight was a total loss, I couldn't feel the wind but where I was stunting wasn't working out. I didn't know you could change directions of the stunts by pointing.
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Thanks Tim! How do you advance from intermediate? Do you have to win?
I noticed a few things at the Fly-in, everyone had pretty airplanes an I had the most beat up airplanes there LL~ I saw a lot with trim tabs too.
On Monday my second flight was a total loss, I couldn't feel the wind but where I was stunting wasn't working out. I didn't know you could change directions of the stunts by pointing.
Read the rules. Always read the rules. Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class. So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.
However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers. So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.
So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines. My guidelines for myself were:
- Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
- Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
- Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
- Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys
This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can. Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them. If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up. If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.
Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care. If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.
Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill. If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity. Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
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Read the rules. Always read the rules. Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class. So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.
However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers. So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.
So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines. My guidelines for myself were:
- Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
- Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
- Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
- Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys
This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can. Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them. If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up. If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.
Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care. If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.
Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill. If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity. Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
Good advice! Ha ha I guess I should of read the rules huh! n~
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Read the rules. Always read the rules. Per the skill class rules you advance yourself -- you advance by entering some higher skill class. So there's nothing in the rules to prevent you from entering Expert in your next contest.
However, per the skill class rules you cannot drop back by yourself -- to drop back a class or two you have to petition the contest organizers. So if you're consistently losing in Expert and you decide you want some hardware in Advanced you can't just drop back and get a nice trophy -- you have to ask nicely, and if the contest organizers think you belong in Expert, that's what you get to fly in.
So there's no hard and fast rule, but many people have their own guidelines. My guidelines for myself were:
- Move from Beginner when you can fly the whole pattern, or if you've been able to fly inverted and square maneuvers for a whole contest season
- Move from Intermediate to Advanced when you've broken 400 points two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Intermediate
- Move from Advanced to Expert when you've broken 500 points for two or three times in a row, or if you're dominating Advanced (and kiss your last trophy -- you won't be earning more any time soon)
- Once you've moved to Expert, to keep from being discouraged, consider yourself to be an "under-Expert", and don't sweat the fact that -- at best -- it'll be years before you beat the top guys
This won't maximize your trophies, but if you've got your sights set on advancing through the ranks as fast as you can, it'll encourage you to get good as fast as you can. Basically, the cohort that you're in will pull you along with them. If you're almost as good as average, they'll pull you up. If you're placing all the time, then you've probably squeezed as much out of that class as you can -- unless you're in Expert, in which case the other top guys will likely spend their practice time helping you get better, and then their competition time trying to beat you into the ground.
Don't worry about having a beat-up airplane -- the air don't care. If you're going to enter Open at the Nats, or fly in Advanced or Expert where they do appearance points -- care.
Learning where the wind is coming from is an essential skill. If you look good in a buzz cut start wearing it, and visit the barbershop right before a contest to enhance your sensitivity. Making sure to wear a low-collar shirt (or a T-shirt without a collar) helps.
Where do I find the rules?
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Where do I find the rules?
On the AMA website (http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/compreg.aspx). Go to AMA home, click the "Competition & Events" tag, then click "Competition rules". Or just click the link I gave you.
You want the General Competition Rules (https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2015-2016General.pdf) that applies to anything, the CL General Rules (https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2015-2016CLGeneral.pdf) that applies to all CL, and finally Control Line Precision Aerobatics (https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2015-2016CLPrecisionAerobatics.pdf) rules. Yes, it's a lot of stuff to wade through -- but it'll make a lot of things clear.
If you just cannot stand going through the rules then you can ask here.
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I think that when they're asymmetrical it's usually the inboard wing that's longer -- the idea is to equalize the lift when the inboard wing is moving a tad slower. (Well, one of the ideas -- there's a lot of theories floating around, and a lot of different ways to skin the cat.)
The ARF Nobler is the same way, inboard wing is a inch longer.
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As Tim says, get the rules and read them. Not once but several times. Makes for good reading when the mate is not in the mood and you can't go to sleep. I've lost count how many Times I've read them and still see something I missed. H^^
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I flew against Chris on Monday at Brodaks, and man, he was the one I was constantly watching out for...................
Good to hear that I can still fly beginner as I can not fly inverted yet and naturally do not know the full
pattern.
Chris, I have 2 more contests to fly beginner at, the Eastern Shore one I told you about on 12 -14 Aug and our contest in Sept.
The rest of the year I will be practicing flying inverted with an old ringmaster with a Fox on the front. (already stuffed it in the ground once inverted. LOL)
Watching Chris fly at Brodaks, he will do great in Intermediate when he moves up to it. H^^ H^^
Carl