The objective is to find a faster way to build a SV22 wing. I have been molding balsa wing panels and building lost foam wings with ribs,this method produces perfect wing panels but time consuming. I was looking for a faster way.
I have been working with Bob Hunt on creating what i call foam inserts for vacuum bagging wing panels in a female mold.
I devised a way to cut a foam wing and keep a  foam perimeter that is used as a foam support for the 1/32" balsa skin.
With Bob Hunts vast experience in cutting foam the following system was created.
1) foam wing with out foam spars
2) center section removed
3) added 3/16"wood trailing edge
4)slpit in half
5)use half foam insert in composite balsa wood,glass,foam and epoxy.
Jose Modesto

Additional photos

Wynn. The panels range from 2.7 to 3oz in white primer 10.2 to 12 oz wings panels.
I was looking for a faster way to produce the prefinish SV22 wing panels without ribs,spars, or any interior support.
 Wynn at this time here in the US we are going through a rules cycle wen this is settled and we have clear rules i can them mobilize.
At this time im not selling any items.
The foam wing inserts make a good solid wing at resonable weights.
wyyn i will send private pm later.I have to go cook dinner.
Jose Modesto

Good stuff Jose,

When I last talked to Bob he was explaining this process to me. He said that it is so simple that there was no need to purchase these shells from someone, anyone could do them by theirself. He said that he was working on an article that explains how to do it and for the most part it is pretty simple and as usual, ingenious. He explained the process to me and I look forward to trying it for myself.

Good job Jose.

Derek

p.s. nice try!

D some photos for you of models that used the Mylar folders system 2003
wen bob showed me his system i said Bob the leading edge does Not come out perfect his comment. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. or words to that affect.( I still use the Mylar folder to apply the glass to the foam and wood flaps on my models.)
Bob said so what that you have to sand the leading edge,my comment was that i wanted to have a perfect panel thus his comment.
that comment has changed my views on continuing the quest for perfection were 98% is good enough.
photo #1,2 and 4 Big Jim El-Jay 46 the only wood in model is 1/4" wing leading,trailing edge,fin,wing tips and rudder.
photo # 3 my half profile with inverted engine. these components were given to Neal Beekman who built the model all flying surfaces are foam with glass and epoxy in a Mylar folder.
photo #5 foam wing with yellow taffeta for color again no wood.
All foam components were cut By John Duncan.
Jose Modesto

D as I stated. the paint in the mold are for me and my friends that can come over and apply the paint and want to compete in JSO at the Nat's..
As you well know there are NO appearance points in local contest in many PAMPA districts,specially in the east.
For PAMPA classes the paint in the mold is acceptable, as you can compete with a model built and painted by others.
There is only one contest a year were the painted in the mold models are not allowed JSO at the Nat's.
A couple of photos of my first foam insert wing. I used Kevlar 2.3oz/SY material with .5 glass cloth and 2 layers of .5 CFM inside with a 3/16" foam. Windy forgot to mention that you cant sand Kevlar thus this wing was never used for a model. 8 years later i repeated the same error and made the most perfect Kevlar wing panels and then had to sand the seam leading edge,again beautiful useless wing panels. I'm getting old.
Jose Modesto

BTW, those two wing panels that you are holding are very nice!!!

Derek

Jose
Actually there is a way to use kevlar so you can sand the surface. Just add a layer of light weight glass cloth over it. You'd need to vacuum bag it otherwise there is fair chance of the glass lifting a bit and creating the ugglies due to the texture differences in the two cloths .... Don't ask about that. .... But I have used this method in boat construction when doing a composite one off hull on male molds. If you want to use carbon that is doable too, I have used that type of layup with carbon canoes where we use a kevlar blanket under the exterior carbon ones to stop cracks from propagating in the carbon with impacts (even high quality canoes with high quality paddlers have occasional impacts). Don't know how the weights would come out compared to what you are doing as I always worked with heavier cloth in the carbon and kevlar than you would be. At any rate, the glass makes a nice smooth sanding veil. 

BTW, I too thought I had developed an allergy to balsa dust. Did some allergy testing and was not the case but my lungs would become a wreck. Turned out it was the shape of balsa sanding dust fibers. Look at some under magnification. The look just like snowflake crystals... except when they get warm the don't melt, they are still sharp with fibers going in all directions. Not the nice little round stuff you think it is. When that gets in the lungs ouch... and it has trouble getting out because it embeds in the soft tissue lining and will not flow out with the mucous as most foreign debries does. I sand in an OSHA vapor mask now. End of issue. And I can use the same mask for painting, except for 2 part poly, then need forced air supply to be safe... so I gave that up. Now in electric it doesn't matter. I don't need the fuel proofing.

Be careful with the epoxies and epoxy dust. It can become an extreme allergen. Many 100% composite homebuilt aircraft projects out there partly finished by the unwary. I only sand the stuff with long sleeves and OSHA mask. BTW, if someone refuses to invest in an actual OSHA mask (the old filters that are out of date for solvents BTW are still good for particles like balsa so I use those for balsa sanding) there is a whole nother area of particulate mask protection available. Some medical surgical masks have multiple layers to filter out very fine particulates like bacteria and virus. They can also be fit more accurately to the face than most of the stuff you get at a hardware. Medical or dental supply houses should have them. The ones I use are by 3M and are molded with one elastic around the neck. I use this type because I work with surgical microscopes and surgical lighting on a head frame. But they are available in the rectangular two ear elastic versions as well. Buy them by the box, they are much cheaper. Don't even know if they are available separately. Certainly would not be from a medical or dental supply. We'd want tracking of the batch numbers and sterility.

bob branch

Jose,

Send me a personal message with your current email address, for some reason every time I try to email you it bounces back. Would like to talk to you about maybe coming up to see your process. I would like learn more.


tstagg@goeaston.net

Thanks

Tim

Jeff:

Not sure what you are trying to say here, but let me be perfectly clear about my involvement in this "procedure." The method that I have tried (with a great deal of success, by the way...) was one I started work on some 5 years ago, and have been thinking about for much longer than that. I didn't "borrow" any part of this method from anyone. In fact, I shared my finding with some others who in turn tried methods of their own using some of my ideas. I share with anyone, but, I certainly don't use anyone else's ideas and claim them as my own.

In many cases there have been parallel developments where one party comes up with an idea at the same time as another does. This is prevalent in any emerging technology. There have also been similar developments that share some of the same procedures. I guess the best course of action for me is to not share anything with anybody. Sad, because as anyone reading this knows, I have shared all my modeling knowledge throughout my career with anyone who would but ask.

Bob Hunt

Thanks, Wynn...

Welcome back Bob also! 

I wanna know why Osama no vsc fly.

Jeff:

When someone orders a product from me and asks my opinion on what they intend to do with it, I give them an honest answer. I am not obliged to tell them everything about what I am doing that may be headed in a similar direction.

I have a method to do what I call, "Reverse Composite Wings." It has several things in common with composite work that is being done worldwide today in many applications other than, but also including, model airplane construction. It was, and still is my intention to share this information with everyone who wants to know about it, but only when I have fully developed it and fully proven it to my satisfaction. I don't want to give out false or misleading information.

In the past I've been chided by my friends for not taking the credit that I deserve for the things I have developed. My stock answer to them is that I will never take credit for things I did not fully invent because then, when I do take credit for something, there will be no doubt about it. Want examples? The Lost-Foam idea is mine. It is the thing I am most proud of in my modeling life. Most of the developments that people worldwide use in CL stunt foam wing construction were developed by me, and that includes the landing gear rib arrangement that virtually all CL foam wing manufacturers use today.

I share information as well or better than anyone in this hobby/sport. Sometimes I am taken to task for giving out too much information. Arrogant? Well, if that's how you perceived it, that's fine. I remember you asking me a lot of questions and I remember answering them to the best of my ability.


It seems to me that you are the arrogant one, suggesting that I feel my way is the "best way" to do everything in this event. I have learned much from many and only desire to pass it on in the best "pay it forward" tradition. When I do answer questions, I always give credit where credit is due. Ask Brett Buck about that sometime. He's been extremely gracious in pointing out on this forum that I don't take nearly enough credit for the things I do and pass on to others.

I'm sorry that you feel the way you do. I remember our first meeting at last year's Nats, where I came over and introduced myself you you. As I recall, you had a lot of electric power questions to ask of me, and I answered them all patiently and to the best of my ability. Perhaps coming over and introducing myself was an arrogant move; I just thought I was being friendly.

Just sayin' - Bob
 

I share information as well or better than anyone in this hobby/sport. Sometimes I am taken to task for giving out too much information.

I say, 6 columns in the AMA Mag is not enough! Your engineering and finishing solutions are interesting and educational. I wish you had your video series back on the air. Isn't it time to update them with new techniques and lessons learned after 15-20 years since the initial creation of the videos? If you decide to do it, I'll be the first one signed up!!!

I find that the style of your video's are very similar to the high quality production style of modern woodworking shows like the Woodsmith TV show.

Come on guys, I am glad to see Bobby is posting again.   I know him and can remember the first time I met him.  Bobby, remember the flags for the tall masted schooner in Lake Charles LA?   I too have been noted as being stuck up myself at times.   I used to think people would'nt like to talk to a kid fresh off the farm and I held back.   Most of the guys/gals I ran with got me out of that mode in away.   But, I have learned that if you don't  talk to people, they may not talk to you.   I am thankful I have met so many people in this great modeling realm.  With my memory, it has to be refreshed once in a while.   It's like the old electronic switching machines for the phone company, it goes into phase mode.   

Now Bobby, how is the twin coming?   Also not to jinx you, but, would love to see you holding the Walker Cup again as well as the Open National Champ Title.   

My thanks go out to all who have posted here in defense of my record of helping and sharing. Let's face it, we are all in this together and we all try to help and share whenever and wherever we can.

Please do not come down too hard on Jeff; he has his perspective and he's entitled to it. I just cannot fathom how or when I pissed him off. My average day includes answering questions on the phone and/or via email for as much as 4 hours. I'm happy to do it. I've had many multi-hour phone calls from those who need info. This hobby/sport has provided me with so much and has given me such joy that I'm more than happy to take the time to help out.

Back to the subject of this thread, I'm very close to announcing and providing information about a composite technique, that while not entirely new or original, has many new and original twists in it. There is even a brand new design associated with this method and I believe it to be my best work on the design board to date. Let me get through the Nats and I'll be ready to publish a whole lot of new stuff.

Doc: Sure I remember the flags in Lake Charles!

Steve: I've been toying with the idea of getting a Mac 'puter and Final Cut Pro Studio and getting back to video production. Find me another 12 hours in the day and I just might be convinced to do it...

Charles: Thanks for the vote of support. I'd like to have the foam wing concession for that 4-winged model...

Later - Bob

Sleep is overrated 

I always say, "I can sleep next month." 

I first met Bob Hunt at the 1973 NATS.  It was my first time entering the NATS and Bob's first time entering in PA.  His Genesis was absolutely beautiful and the lightest airplane I ever held.  We psyched each other up to qualify and we both made it.  Of course, Bob was outstanding and took 9th place in the finals, while I landed in last place at 18th.

I was very impressed with Bob's foam wing.  After returning home, I ordered my wing design from him and it was absolutely a work of art.  I used that wing in the plane I built for the 1974 and 1975 NATS.  I tanked both times, but enjoyed the experience.  Here, 38 years later, I still have that airplane and that wing.

Anyway, I left modeling for 36 or so years.  A while back, I called Bob and re-introduced myself.  He remembered me and we talked for a couple of hours like old friends.  He is still as down to earth as he was in 1973 and still as willing to help anybody build a better airplane.  His talents are beyond reproach and I believe he is one of the true masters of PA in every phase of it.  I have spoken to him a few more times since then.  He is always available to talk and provide information.

I am really glad to see him posting again.  I hope he stays to enrich the board.

Jeff : You stated your opinion ,others have disagreed - its time to move on.

I highly doubt Buddy joined just to get into you - He's not that sort of guy, like Bob - Buddy is class all day.

2 bad calls from 2.. Nice work.

Jeff:

I've tried to call you to speak with you man to man, but apparently you are never home and your voice mail box is full. I never said that we didn't have a phone conversation, we spoke when you ordered your core, and I believe once more on another occasion. I cannot recall the exact conversations, because I have hundreds of them a month with modelers nationwide and worldwide. I just cannot fathom just exactly what your complaint is. You have not once written here or said to me personally just what it is that I am supposed to have shared with others that was your proprietary information. Care to do that here and now?

Everything that I have used on my "Reverse Composite" method is stuff that I came up with all by my lonesome. Just what is it that I'm supposed to have done here?  

Note also that those who came to my defense did so of their own accord. Apparently they are not convinced that I have done some egregious thing.

Your characterization of me here as a "god" doesn't go down well either. Up to this point I was in hopes that we could work this all out and still be friends. I have no such desire at this point to do that. Please do not call me again with questions, or ideas. I have my own ideas and certainly don't need yours.


Bob Hunt

Jeff,
Buddy Wieder has been a member of the Stunt Hanger forum for quite some time. He reads and mostly has no comments. He a superb flyer and is a very giving person. It might be his first post, but don’t start criticizing someone that you don’t know! Buddy is not a newbee. I first met him about 1959.

I have found over the years that I have created many methods and tools to help my own building and found out that others have also developed the similar same methods. Necessity is the mother of invention. They have not stolen my ideas! People have parallel thoughts!

Bob Hunt has been helping people and shares his developments with the Whole World. He NEVER fails to give credit to other people. We are in a hobby that thankfully shares, and developes things that are built upon things others accomplish.

Bob is a past National Champion and World Champion and unselfishly helps everyone.  To question Bob’s character is an INSULT to all of us in the hobby.  He would NEVER steal another’s idea!

I have known Bob for over forty years, believe me his character is impeccable!

In addition I am a licensed Airframe and Powerplant  mechanic with an engineering degree.  I have built two homebuilt airplanes.  I also have flown full size aerobatics, and have Single and Multi Engine, Instrument and Instructors ratings.  My college roommate worked with Burt Rutan at Edwards AFB  when Burt was still in the Air Force and had just built the Vari Viggen. This was during F-15 flight tests. I met Burt at Mcdonnell Aircraft when he visited us with his Vari Viggen, long before the Vari EZ series. I was also in engineering on the F-15 project.

And… you know what…. This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation and should impress No One! The stunt fraternity is full of similar experienced people in aviation: pilots; mechanics; and enthusiasts.  

I suggest that you stop throwing darts at people that you don’t know!

Hi all:

Jeff's absolutely correct; a simple phone call from either of us to the other would have quickly solved this monumental misunderstanding. We are now good and I wish that you all will simply forget this ever happened and hold no ill will against Jeff. We did a virtual hug over the phone and will do that in actuality at the Nats as well.

All this stemmed from something that I had promised someone else that I would not disclose that was identical to an original idea that Jeff had and that he had discussed with me. I couldn't tell Jeff that, because it would cause me to break a confidence that I had with the third person. Once Jeff heard that, he knew that I had not done anything improper.  That third person finally announced the idea on the forum (which he's been working on for the past few years...) and Jeff thought that I had told that person about his (Jeff's) idea. It was as Tom Niebuhr suggested, a classic case of parallel development.

This should serve as a lesson for all of us on these forums. We need to speak with each other personally whenever something like this arises. Lots of hurt feelings and typing could be avoided.

Jeff and I will be practicing together at the Nats. Come join us!   

Bob Hunt

" PJ,
    It was his first post!!!

  Lets imagine you telling someone about the vortex generators before you said anything to anyone else "

I disavow any knowledge of such devices..........

Hi all:

Jeff's absolutely correct; a simple phone call from either of us to the other would have quickly solved this monumental misunderstanding. We are now good and I wish that you all will simply forget this ever happened and hold no ill will against Jeff. We did a virtual hug over the phone and will do that in actuality at the Nats as well.

All this stemmed from something that I had promised someone else that I would not disclose that was identical to an original idea that Jeff had and that he had discussed with me. I couldn't tell Jeff that, because it would cause me to break a confidence that I had with the third person. Once Jeff heard that, he knew that I had not done anything improper.  That third person finally announced the idea on the forum (which he's been working on for the past few years...) and Jeff thought that I had told that person about his (Jeff's) idea. It was as Tom Niebuhr suggested, a classic case of parallel development.

This should serve as a lesson for all of us on these forums. We need to speak with each other personally whenever something like this arises. Lots of hurt feelings and typing could be avoided.

Jeff and I will be practicing together at the Nats. Come join us!   

Bob Hunt

Bob you truly are a Gentleman.
I don't know Mr Traxler, but in your shoes I would be trying to find him and break his nose...You are, my friend a truly unique individual and one of the finest gentlemen I've had the pleasure to know.

Randy Cuberly

Bob,
Jeff is also a very accomplished guitar BUILDER.  he makes some fine instruments, both electric and acoustic.  We swap supplies, techniques, and other guitar stuff from time to time.  (Now, if I could just get him to throw that #*(*$@#*$$# slide away.)