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Author Topic: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts  (Read 3076 times)

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« on: December 07, 2016, 06:38:12 PM »
I searched through some of the old threads using the search feature and still come away unsure. If starting with a formed and cured CF part, what are the options for glueing balsa to it.  For example a really nicely made CF motor mount crutch plate (CF/light balsa/CF) that extends back into the aft fuselage. I want to glue my turtle deck balsa formers and fuse formers to it. should I rough up the surface of the CF part and use epoxy, titebond, sigment, or CA glue. I prefer using anything but CA. That stuff forces me to use a filtered mask or my heart rate goes nuts.
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2016, 08:44:37 PM »
Epoxy or CA works.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2016, 09:25:07 PM »
Any special surface prep to CF part such as ruffing up the smooth shine to give it some tooth for the epoxy to adhere to?
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2016, 10:17:01 PM »
I think sanding is good. Be sure it's clean. You can wipe it with a solvent. Sticking carbon to balsa isn't as challenging as sticking it to other stuff.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 04:47:08 AM »
The bond between the CF and the balsa only needs to be as strong as the balsa  ;)
As already said, sand a bit to take off the gloss then CA.

Pat MacKenzie
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Offline Gordon Tarbell

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 08:20:49 AM »
Thanks to both of you.
Gordon Tarbell AMA 15019

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 09:50:16 AM »
Make sure  its  clean, and  I would  use  slow cure  epoxy on it

Randy

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 10:28:44 AM »
I do this a lot and think plain epoxy 2 part is a bit thick and wasteful and a pain to scrape clean off excess...that siad itt works just fine ....No no to 5 min crap tho

I use products from ACP or Zap...

Zap PT 40 finishing resin is 2 part, fairly long work time and after 24 hours is very good bond and sandable where needed

ACPs Ez-Lam is similar but 2 to 1 ratio

I mix both by weight on my grams scale and they ALWAYS cure properly

for laminations I slather it all on fairly thick... set the bare part, separate, and squeegee off all excess---- and then position and weight or clamp the parts

All parts facing/gluing  surfaces are pre sanded and cleaned with alcohol then tack rag and never get a oily finger touching them...nitrile gloves

With Balsa, Glass or Carbon, Maple motor mount, glass or carbon, balsa or ply lamination---- on the nose of profiles I can, and have ,nose planted at 100+ MPH without breakage of the nose....

OK... yes... the rest of the plane became a bag o parts ===BUT that nose was rock solid....grin
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 11:56:14 AM »
Sigment and Titebond are solvent-based adhesives, that work by soaking into wood and then drying out.  They won't soak into CF/epoxy, so they'll never stick -- sooner or later they'll just peel off.

Epoxy and CA will both make a chemical bond.  CA is brittle, which is a bummer when you're mating two dissimilar materials like balsa and epoxy.  Epoxy is heavy, which is a bummer when you're building a stunt plane.  Pick your poison.

If the epoxy is shiny, then it probably has mold release on it*.  You'll want to sand the mold release off.  You're NOT doing this to give the surface mechanical "tooth"** -- you're doing this to expose fresh, un-oxidized potential chemical bonds (mechanical engineers call this an "activated surface") that will bond more readily to the glue.  If you sand it and then go away for a week before you glue, you might want to hit it again, because the bonds will have had time to oxidize in the air.

* Freshly rubbed and polished epoxy or polyester paint is really shiny, but does NOT have any mold release on it and unless there's silicone or wax in the rubbing compound, DOES have those horny little un-oxidized bonds waving around, just waiting to hook up with anything.  Drop some catalyzed glue on that surface and it'll stick like a bandit.

** OTOH, if you're painting it with lacquer, you ARE sanding it for mechanical "tooth", because that's the best you can do.  In that case you want lots of roughness both for "tooth" and for increased surface area.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2016, 04:08:40 PM »
Simple rules:

-If it is really an important joint, avoid hobby shop 1:1 epoxies. Real structural adhesives are much better. Or, use good laminating resin and thicken it up with colloidal silica or microballoons.
-Whenever possible, cure in elevated temperature (50..70C)
-With carbon etc. surface; first degrease then roughen, then degrease again.
-problem with balsa is that in grain direction it sucks epoxy like crazy and 90 degrees to grain direction it absorbs very little. So there is a risk of dry joint when gluing end grain. So make sure to wait long enough that absorption has ended before closing the joint.
In cross grain, it's often a good idea to poke lots of small holes with a pin or x-acto blade to balsa to make epoxy anchor well.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Glueing balsa to formed and cured CF parts
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 04:03:55 AM »
The bond between the CF and the balsa only needs to be as strong as the balsa  ;)
As already said, sand a bit to take off the gloss then CA.

Pat MacKenzie
[/quote

Well, not exactly so. As I wrote a little unclearly in the previous post, you need to create a gradient layer, or zone, between balsa and carbon. A good way is to first spread glue on balsa, then poke lots (about 1/square mm) of pinholes through the glue. That way the epoxy will anchor well deep into wood fibers.
That was a typical problem with attaching the fin into carbon tailboom in free flight. Small damages are inevitable, and for field repairs it is nice to make sure that it'll be a clean cut instead of crushed wood and carbon splinters.
With this method balsa never breaks, and actually I have to increase glue adhesion to carbon boom by wrapping the boom with Kevlar thread.
Best solutions are simple! L


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