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Author Topic: Painting dope in high humidity  (Read 1207 times)

Offline John Miller

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Painting dope in high humidity
« on: January 22, 2008, 08:08:25 AM »
After reading of Randy's travails with his Cobra reduex, I thought it might be helpful to post a most recent experience with doping during high humid conditions.

I travelled down to Floeida to visit Walter Umland, and to attend the KOI. Of course, it had nothing to do with all the sub freezing temps, and snow and ice in Utah this time of the year.

When I got there, Walter was working on the finish for his Prototype Ringmaster Imperial.

The first day, the temps were in, or near 8o degrees. Humidity, on his meter was about 50%. He sprayed on a coat of silver, and commented on the blush he was getting.

We tried a lot of things to get around the problem, especially in light of the fact that during the process the temps dropped and the humidity rose to over 90%.

What worked for us, and allowed us to mask the trim, and apply the two main trim colors, all on the same day was suprizing in it's simplicity.

Of course a small amount, 10% or less, of retarder was used, but the key was that Walter has a home heating and air conditioning unit in his shop. We set the meter in the shop, and ran the air conditioning until the meter showed less than 35% humidity. We turned off the AC, and shot the color. As soon as the color was shot, we turned the heat up to 80 degrees, and went inside for an hour or so. The humidity stayed low during most this time, since the doors were left closed while we were force drying the paint.

An hour or 2 later, we were able to handle the plane, and mask off for the second trim color. We then did the same procedure again, a couple of hours later, were able to remove all the masking. We left the plane in the heated shop over night.

The best part was we experienced no blushing, and were able to add the black checkerboards, and 3 coats of clear the next day.

The plane came out with a pretty nice looking finish that should buff out real nice in a few weeks.

This information is offered as a help and your milage may vary.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 09:56:16 AM »
John, what a great use of "modfern" technology and old science,, lol. Yep running the AC will definetly lower the humidity, not sure I would ever get the temp back up here though, besiDes Linda might have a problem with the house getting that cold. temp today,,~6, wind chill below zero, same last three days. Glad I build in the house!
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 10:52:14 AM »
Mark,
Of course in your case (low outside temperatures) just running the heater should keep the humidity at bay.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 11:00:57 AM »
>>Of course in your case (low outside temperatures) just running the heater should keep the humidity at bay.<<

Not in my case. I heated the paint area up to about 75F. I looked at my wall barometer and humidity was still quite high. And now it was making everything wet. My problem wasn't with blushing (I also used retarder), it was with the paint getting dry. I had a bunch of problems with flash sticking to the surface after the tape was pulled. Even after I had let it set two days. I also had problems with adhesion since the paint wasn't really dry. Heating things up only made stuff damp. It didn't get rid of the water. What I needed was a de-humidifier in the shop. Sigh...

Think I'll just wait to start the finish on the new PA plane.
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Offline Mike Spiess

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 12:53:56 PM »
I'm no expert but when you heat air the moisture in it goes down as warmer air can hold more moisture. Thats why you blow warm air on windshelds to de frost them. And cold drinks sweat  cause the air around them give off moisture as they cool. The moisture is coming from some were and I would check your heater exaust but if your using a space heater thats where its coming from. As any gas burns it gives off moisture some more than others. Had an LP heater in a fishhouse once and the doors froze shut because of the air leaking out them built up ice. %^

Edited; a barometer does not mesure humidity I know you knew that.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 01:44:35 PM by Mike Spiess »
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 02:14:32 PM »
Mike,

Yea. I have a ships instrument job on the wall with temp, barometer and hygrometer. Shows what happens when your mind is on something else. When it's hovering near 80%, I know that painting is going to be problematic. I do use a sort of space heater and so, will probably need a de-humidifier in there if I do any more painting.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 03:58:06 PM »
Randy.,I keep tellin ya, you need to find a conferance or somthign you have to attend over here, bring the beast over, and we can have a painting party in the downdraft!
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 08:38:35 PM »
Well here in the Chicago area, when it is in the 10's to 20's (oF) outside, the relative humidity inside runs sometimes lower than 10%. So low that humidifiers are SOP with most home central units.

At work we have been building a "Pixel Detector" that we are shipping to Geneva Switzerland to a do a High Energy Physics experiment (aka searching for the "God Particle"). Anyway getting back to my topic, we wear slipover "booties" that have a slightly  conductive ribbon strip that you tuck inside your shoe. This will bleed off the static charge you can build up before you zap this $5 million detector!. Here is a plot I made of the inside temperature and humidity (taken ~every 20 minutes) over about a 8 month time scale. The  low humidity periods (black dots) were when the outside temperatures were pretty cold. When the relative humidity is that low, you can pick up a large static charge every time you get off your chair. Trying to keep the humidity up in the winter is actually a pretty hard thing to do.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 10:02:46 PM »
Mark,

Yea, yea.

Alan,

I suspect it has to do with the heating and cooling of the shop. The place it's normally heated (I really need to get central heat in there). I'm sure the condensation when it cools and the heat when I heat it up to be in there causes most of the problem.
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Offline Dave Nyce

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 07:39:57 AM »
To reduce the relative humidity of the air in a room, you can run a dehumidifier or an air conditioner.  In each case, the air is run through a heat-exchanger that is cooled by a refrigeration unit.  If the air is humid, water condenses from the cooled air and the dew point of the cooled air comes down to its new (lower) temperature.  With a dehumidifer, the cooled air is then heated back up and exhausts into the room as dehumidifed air.  With an air conditioner, the cooled air warms up as it mixes with the other air in the room.  In either case, you end up lowering the relative humidity of the air in the room.

Running a heater to warm up the room will also lower the air's relative humidity to some degree.  But, since you normally can't raise the temperature by very many degrees before it will become too hot, the amount of relative humidity reduction is limited.

Dave
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Alan Hahn

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2008, 09:17:32 AM »
My original comment was directed to (I think!) the fact that it was (very) cold outside, whereas inside we are talking temperatures in the lower 70's (yes I know you need air conditioning in Florida even in the winter to achieve this indoor temperature!--it was in the 80's during my Christmas visit last month in Miami).
For example right now (outside) it is 9oF with the %RH (also outside) at a "sticky" 73%. Inside where I am sitting, according to my instruments, it is 21oC (70oF) and a %RH of 13%.

Now if you are heating the room by some catalytic fuel heater, this could be dumping moisture into the room (hopefully no CO!), so what I say doesn't work. An electrical heater would be better.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2008, 09:27:23 AM »
I probably wasn't very clear last night. I heat the shop with a kersone heater. Has the advantage that it heats up fairly quickly (an hour from 25-30 degrees to I can stand to be out there). When I built the place, I set it up for a furnace. I've held off because I have yet to insulate the floor (shop in on the second floor of the garage). I've been accumulating insulation for that and plan to pick up sheet rock as soon as the weather permits (can't be hauling sheetrock around in the back of a pickup when it raining or snowing). Once that's done, I plan to put a regular furnace in with outside air draw. That should improve things immensely.

For now, the problem is the constant heating up and cooling down of the place. I heat it up in the evenings to work out there and then shut off the heat and it cools down. I imagine this is why all the cans in the place have rust on them. Once the new furnace is in place and I can keep a contant temp of no lower than 50F or so and include a de-humidifier in the setup, the problems will go away. But for now, it's not real pleasant. I spent an hour last night with some "000" steel wool cleaning the rust off the machine tools.
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Offline Mike Spiess

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Re: Painting dope in high humidity
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 02:03:40 PM »
I'v had problems with the exaust from a kersone heaters mixed with painting. Fish eyes and adhesion problems with auto paints at least here in MN. %^
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