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Author Topic: Landing Gear Placement  (Read 1447 times)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Landing Gear Placement
« on: September 29, 2019, 12:05:10 PM »
Good Flying Folks:

Construction of my Skyray to be powered by the OS-25LA proceeds. I'm at the point that I have to decide on landing gear type and placement. My intent with this craft is flying over grass fields (more sites available in this town) and with a stooge. I'm leaning toward the large RSM Duraloy gear with narrowish, 2.5-inch spoked foam wheels.

My question: Where should I place the gear (yeah, I know - on the fuselage. Ha!)? The plans show 1.5 inch behind the leading edge. Not sure that will work on grass, or will it?

So is LG placement really critical, as long as the airplane gets into the air? In years past, it seems that the gear was located forward, almost under the engine. Modern stunt ships have it located much as the Skyray plans show. Is placement more of an aesthetic consideration, once grass fields are factored out?

Just can't get my mind (such as it is) around this question. Help!


Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 12:27:54 PM »
Construction of my Skyray to be powered by the OS-25LA proceeds. I'm at the point that I have to decide on landing gear type and placement. My intent with this craft is flying over grass fields (more sites available in this town) and with a stooge. I'm leaning toward the large RSM Duraloy gear with narrowish, 2.5-inch spoked foam wheels.

My question: Where should I place the gear (yeah, I know - on the fuselage. Ha!)? The plans show 1.5 inch behind the leading edge. Not sure that will work on grass, or will it?

So is LG placement really critical, as long as the airplane gets into the air? In years past, it seems that the gear was located forward, almost under the engine. Modern stunt ships have it located much as the Skyray plans show. Is placement more of an aesthetic consideration, once grass fields are factored out?

For paved surfaces, the placement is critical. The contact point of the wheels should be 15 degrees ahead of the CG. Draw a line down the center of the wing on the side view, put your CG at the preferred position along that line (15% of the chord for the Skyray or other no-flap models, per the design on flapped planes). Then draw a line that is 15 degrees forward passing through the CG. The wheels should touch the ground on that line.

   Too far aft, and it will land well but tend to tip over on takeoff, or the landing roll. Too far forward, and it will bounce on takeoff like just about every OTS airplane.

    For grass, and for sake of practicality on the Skyray, you would need to cut the landing gear with a significant rearward rake. There's only one practical place to attach it and straight down from there is well ahead of the 15 degree point. If you care about the landings, you would want to use wire gear, or specially-cut gear with an aft rake (you don't want to put aluminum gear, intended to go straight down, at an angle). What I did was use either the SIG Phaser gear, or some old Hallco "fuse bottom" RC gear (cut in half and bent the other way) and just put it straight down. It bounces a lot, even on grass, but it's OK all things considered.

   BTW, for all the discussion we have, I generally don't care or pay any attention to switching gear around for pavement or grass. My regular airplane is set for best landings on pavement, and very little ground clearance. I fly it off grass all the time with no changes, it's not that big a deal, as long as you use proper takeoff/landing technique. The desireable launch point on takeoff  and touchdown point on grass is definitely *different* from pavement, the higher the grass, the more different it is.

     Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 09:13:46 AM »
Thanks again Brett, for the explanation.

Given the conditions here and the Skyray's size, I just might be tilting at windmills. The grass in public spaces 'round these parts is thick, lush, very green i.e., the dream lawn of millionaires. A couple of attempts at stooge launching my standard OS-46LA Twister resulted in rollouts no more than six inches before the prop would cut a groove in the turf, stalling the engine. Of course I would have to have an audience. Drats!

So now I finally understand the 15-degree landing gear orientation and the reasoning behind it.

By the way, the Skyray's plan with a nine-inch prop overlay would mean that the prop tip clears the surface by 5/8". Not good for the grass here. I suppose I could add another two to three  inches in LG effective length. That seems extreme, and I'd still not be sure that that would do the job.

Your thoughts?

Much obliged.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 10:56:49 PM »
Dave Mo,

Greetings from the western deserts to the land of lush lawns....

Get the wheels forward and live with some bouncing so that you can help deal with the grass. Here's what I would try:

1. Use 2-1/4" or even 2-1/2" wheels. Use wide wheels like the DuBro SuperLites (#225SL, etc.) Wide helps in the grass.
2. I'd use 1/8" wire gear, so that it is easier to tune it until you get something that works for you. Aluminum is fine, but long gear is heavy and once you've got it installed, you may be reluctant to change it to get it right for your conditions.
3. I would definitely lengthen the gear compared to the wheel vertical position shown on the plans. Add a couple of inches to get some clearance. On pavement, the stock Twister gear looks kind of absurd--but on grass it starts looking pretty righteous....
4. I would drill the top hole thru the upper engine bearer as shown. Sweep the gear forward significantly. At least as much as the plans show it being swept back. I would use two sets of plastic clips, the lowest thru the  bottom engine mount; or better yet, one set of metal clips thru the bottom. The issue here will then be that you will have to shim the tank out over the landing gear. If you are doing the screamin' OS installation, that may hinder your fuel draw a bit. So think about your alternatives. I think a 3oz. wedge tank will fit, even with the gear swept forward, though....
5. If you want to disguise your long spindly wire gear legs, make up some balsa and spruce fairings. I'd use 1/8" square spruce or bass glued to the balsa shape you like. Then, you can lace the spruce to the wire. This will add damping to the springy gear legs fore and aft which should help some.
6. If you are converting this bird to ProStunt requirements and therefore have a tall tailwheel mount installed, it will lower the AOA in its ground stance for that 40 point takeoff--on pavement. But on grass, it's going to just add to your problems. A 'singing OS may launch in nearly 3-point stance with the tailskid shown.
7. Make sure your rudder is stout. Planes often flip over in thick and tall grass. The stock Twister has both a tall fin and a "hooked" shape that is perfect for catching and breaking off. The Skyray is way ahead here on both counts, but make sure the wood isn't the fabled "6 lb stunt-wood" or be sure to bring your bottle of CyA....
8. Bring a piece of carpet. A couple of feet wide and as long as you can stand carrying around. If you can roll cleanly for a few feet, you have a fighting chance. Be sure (with light carpet) that any prop blast won't lift up an edge and suck it into the rotating machinery. And watch out for wrinkles.
9. Teach the local kids how to hand-launch.


Hope you find a good setup to go with all that billionaire grass parkland you got up there. (I got to hear a few Tug lake stories just last weekend....)

The Divot

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2019, 11:25:31 PM »

By the way, the Skyray's plan with a nine-inch prop overlay would mean that the prop tip clears the surface by 5/8". Not good for the grass here. I suppose I could add another two to three  inches in LG effective length. That seems extreme, and I'd still not be sure that that would do the job.

Your thoughts?

  Just make it a bit longer. For reference, I just measured my Skyray, and the axles on the wheels are about an inch and a half in front of the LE, and the bottom of the fuselage is about 5" above the contact point of the wheels. The wheels are the 65mm/'2 1/2"' MPI spoked wheels, the really skinny ones. I used to use the 3" Dave Brown Lite-Flight wheels.

   I have not had a problem taking off with either arrangement at some pretty questionable sites. It *does not* land very well, very bouncy even on grass, because they are much too far forward to be ideal, but it flies well enough to make that a minor consideration.

    Brett

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2019, 09:11:38 AM »
Brett and The Divot:

Lots to digest here; will get back to you with comments soon.

Dave Mo...

PS: Tug Lake is what we in this part of the state call "Up North."

D...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2019, 12:44:09 PM »
back in the old days before we found out about 15% CG wheels we found that if u went the other way and put the wheels up by the engine and raised the tail a bit landings were much better.

to  show how a little change makes a diff. was flying someone else's ringmaster fox racer with a single wheel .couldn't get it down with less than 4 bounces made the feature and on the first pit rolled the wheel off of the hub and the last 3 landings were perfect roll'ins
rad racer

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2019, 04:10:24 PM »
In case there is any lingering doubt about the grass in reference here, think 3.5" tall Astroturf.

Bob: It sounds like your solution follows the simplicity rule, thus much appeal. But what did that bird roll in on - the wheel collar?

Brett: Thanks for taking the time to give me the dimensions on your Skyray. Powerful incentive for me to follow, given your experience.

Divot and Brett: Some time ago I read a forum discussion over the merits of thin wheels versus wide wheels in heavy grass. The dichotomy was not resolved. I might just give both a try on the 1/8" wire gear given that you each have a different recommendation. Both sets will be 2.5".

Divot: Some more questions for you. First, I don't like the chicken leg look, so some disguise would be nice. But I can't get my mind around the fairings of which you speak. I'm thinking that they would appear teardrop-shaped in cross section with a half circle up front and a triangle behind. Correct? Dental floss for light-weight lacing?

More Divot: Wow, that would be some sweep forward, but I can see how it would help.

Not by a long shot am I into ProStunt flying. In fact when landing on grass, the plane so often ends up on its back that I didn't know they landed any other way. Ha!

Carpet for a running start has got to help a bunch. Not hard to find that around here, so worth a shot.

Finally, your tank discussion gives me pause. So that extra 1/8" on the tank position outboard might be a noticeable disadvantage?

Chow-ciao for now.

Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2019, 05:58:15 PM »
Baraboo Dave,

Didn't know they had 3-1/2" Astroturf....but it sounds like some fun to walk around on....

As you are suggesting, the best proof of what works for you in your particular grass is to try both the skinny and the wide wheels. On short grass it won't matter. (Think Chris Columbus park in Tucson....) On rocks and gravel and tree sticks it won't matter. The plane's probably going over. (Think sheep pasture....) But if you can get the plane to float on your "Astroturf" or to stop plowing and start planing...then fat wheel might help. I didn't see the previous post you referred to so maybe I go look for that.

If you are talking about the kind of grass that grows, then I know about "Wisconsin Thick."  Visited a relative up your way when I was a kid. Thought I'd help out while the family stayed and visited. Tried to cut the front lawn which was about two feet high. Went thru every tool in the barn until it was down far enough that a push mower could get it. Got up the next morning, and--I kid you not--it had grown an inch overnight. At that rate, I'd need to cut it again before we left.... After that, I talked about seeing the Dells every time my Mom was within earshot.

When I looked at the SIG plans, I noted that if you left the top attach point the same and simply swept the gear forward about the same angle that the plans show it going back, you'd have a shot at handling short grass with few issues. The wheels would be a small amount forward of Brett's dimension. But if you lengthen the gear, too, then they're going to bit that much further forward from his recommendation. For good, honest WI grass, you gotta get the prop out of most of it. Hence, the longer legs--or the carpet.

"First, I don't like the chicken leg look, so some disguise would be nice. But I can't get my mind around the fairings of which you speak. I'm thinking that they would appear teardrop-shaped in cross section with a half circle up front and a triangle behind. Correct? Dental floss for light-weight lacing?"

Sorry. I knew my description was weak. I can text you a photo if you PM your number. Else, let me try again. Cut a 1/8" piece of balsa in the planform shape of the fairing that pleases your eye. Like a stretched triangle. Maybe an 1-1/2" chord near the fuse and only 3/4" or so near the axle. Leave a good gap near the fuse so the gear can flex and not hit the fairing. Now, one way to easily attach the fairing is to "tie it on" using Spectra fishing line. But the line will cut thru balsa, so you need to reinforce your balsa fairing. Take a 1/8" square spruce stick (or basswood, or pine, or...) and glue it to the front of the balsa fairing.  Now drill an ~.040" hole near the top and one near the bottom right thru the glueline, or in the balsa next to the glueline. Using the Spectra, do about 3-4 wraps thru the hole and around the wire. Pull tight and tie a square knot. Lock the knot with CyA. Go on to the next hole. Going to three holes on a long fairing is tempting, but may not allow the fairing to flex on a long, flexy gear. Two holes on a regular length gear works fine. Put the holes about 1/6th the length of the whole strut in from each end. Yes, you can thin the trailing edge down before you sew them on if that looks better to you. I would stay away from embedding the wire into a hollowed balsa kind of fairing. The first time things flex they will pop apart. Don't worry about drag. It is more important to get the fairing aligned to the airflow. I usually wick some CyA into the joint and let it pop on the first hard flex. The glue residue still keeps things from sliding around after the joint pops. Or, you can do the soldered tin strip deal and forget the Spectra and glue. Lots of ways....

"Finally, your tank discussion gives me pause. So that extra 1/8" on the tank position outboard might be a noticeable disadvantage?"

If you limit the forward sweep to the angle shown, but reversed, and use a standard wedge tank you should clear the gear entirely if you keep the bottom clips low where they belong. (Be sure to put hardwood between the doublers. If the fuse is already done, then you can drill and install some 3/8" wood dowels to spread the load and avoid compressing the fuse.) So not an issue. If you bolted on an aluminum gear and used cap head screws and etc. etc. etc. without regard to the tank choice/installation, then things could get worse in terms of fuel draw. I was merely trying to point that out. Everything is part of one integrated system. One change over here can have an unintended consequence over there. As Brett will tell you, the OS .20 and .25 are not known to have the strongest fuel draw out there when run at the likely rpm.

The Divot

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2019, 11:56:46 AM »
Divot Dave:

Man alive, you are really with me on this one! FYI, the river Dells and slow tour boats are still there, unchanged. But the surrounding area has developed into a kind of Coney Island with amusement and water parks and year 'round entertainment. Lots of activity, and great for people watching.

The task at hand and the shape of things to come on the Skyray: light, fat wheels a la your DuBro recommendation for starters. I'm game for the carpet idea as the thought of planing out over the grass has just got to be the ticket. I can probably keep the carpet narrow enough to transport, if I'm careful. Good thing you mentioned the rug's potential for getting caught in the prop as it never crossed my mind.

The fairings sound like just the ticket for a good-looking ship. They'll find their way onto the finished product for sure. No photo needed; your 350 words did the job much better anyway. Your experience shows!

So I wasn't aware of the OS 20FP's rather anemic fuel draw. Now I understand why you and Brett would be concerned about that 1/8" tank offset. Your will will be done with aplomb!

I'll now get busy and copy all the recommendations here to my Skyray build file. Construction on the craft will re-commence in a few weeks, after all the Fall yard work and house winterizing is completed.

Thank-you again for taking the time to reason all this out and write up your suggestions.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2019, 08:23:08 PM »
In case there is any lingering doubt about the grass in reference here, think 3.5" tall Astroturf.

Bob: It sounds like your solution follows the simplicity rule, thus much appeal. But what did that bird roll in on - the wheel collar?  the hub was still there

Brett: Thanks for taking the time to give me the dimensions on your Skyray. Powerful incentive for me to follow, given your experience.

Divot and Brett: Some time ago I read a forum discussion over the merits of thin wheels versus wide wheels in heavy grass. The dichotomy was not resolved. I might just give both a try on the 1/8" wire gear given that you each have a different recommendation. Both sets will be 2.5".

Divot: Some more questions for you. First, I don't like the chicken leg look, so some disguise would be nice. But I can't get my mind around the fairings of which you speak. I'm thinking that they would appear teardrop-shaped in cross section with a half circle up front and a triangle behind. Correct? Dental floss for light-weight lacing?

More Divot: Wow, that would be some sweep forward, but I can see how it would help.

Not by a long shot am I into ProStunt flying. In fact when landing on grass, the plane so often ends up on its back that I didn't know they landed any other way. Ha!

Carpet for a running start has got to help a bunch. Not hard to find that around here, so worth a shot.

Finally, your tank discussion gives me pause. So that extra 1/8" on the tank position outboard might be a noticeable disadvantage?

Chow-ciao for now.

Mo...
rad racer

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Landing Gear Placement
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2019, 09:41:38 PM »
\
So I wasn't aware of the OS 20FP's rather anemic fuel draw. Now I understand why you and Brett would be concerned about that 1/8" tank offset. Your will will be done with aplomb!

   It's fine as long as you run it as intended. It has pretty severe issues if you try to chug it around in a 4-stroke at 8500 RPM. Just don't do something silly like use a 2 1/2" wide combat "chicken hopper" tank, and use the right prop.

    I have been amazed at how difficult it is to get stunt fliers to be willing to lean the engine out enough to run properly. Lots of people equate "2-stroke" with "burn up!" As long as you don't go over the top lean, to the point it is sagging, it's not going to burn up. Set it by leaning the engine out, as far as it will go, until even one click more lean makes it sag. Then, back off 5-6 clicks until you hear a distinct drop in the RPM, but definitely still 2-stroking. That should be around 11,500 +- some, that is the proper launch RPM.

    Brett
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:03:31 PM by Brett Buck »


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