News:


  • April 19, 2024, 01:29:29 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: I have a question about bell crank  (Read 1732 times)

Offline tom creasey

  • 1st. Lieutenant
  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 118
I have a question about bell crank
« on: April 24, 2019, 07:51:07 AM »

           I have my own theory about the location of the push rod hole location on the bell crank.......Could some one explain about location of push rod hole
.......some say closest to center pivot of bell crank with flaps only......or......location is always located closest to center pivot point.....or......locate hole where you prefer.......

     I would like to hear from you guys.....your  does and don't,...... why,....... where, and examples of different degree changes with different locations

    Thank you for helping

   I tried searching for a thread but came up with different topics .......Guess  I am not wording it right
Tom
AMA 1073788

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 09:13:24 AM »
It's a balance, with a wide range of "best" numbers.  Basically, how far the pushrod hole is from the center affects the ratio of leadout motion to pushrod motion.

Too close, and the pushrod doesn't move much.  The forces on the pushrod are higher, and you need a shorter distance from the pivot on the flap (or elevator) horn to the flap hinge line.  This means that you're putting more stress on your flap horn pivot points, and that any slop in the linkage is magnified compared to a longer pushrod to pivot distance on the bellcrank.

Too far, and you need to find room for all of the workings.  Slop has less effect (which is nice), but now the fact that the bellcrank is rotating out of the plane of motion of the flap horn makes more of a difference, so it may be difficult to get the flap deflection vs. bellcrank deflection symmetrical (you'll see some folks obsessing over this -- it's the reason for various oddball doglegs in flap horns, tilted bellcranks, bellcranks with pivots offset fore or aft, etc.)

Like a lot of things in stunt, this seems to be mostly settled: the current ratio of somewhere around 4:1 between the leadout spacing and the pivot to pushrod hole seems pretty good.  Folks will deviate from that, or make tweaks (like tilting the bellcrank or offsetting holes), but by and large we look at the top dawgs, see that they aren't markedly different from "traditional", and go with tradition.

The only real exception that I can think of to this is for Old Time stunt -- if you're building a Ringmaster, or some other plane with a ginormous elevator, then to keep it legal and have the thing work decently you really want to reduce the movement of the elevator.  This means either moving the pushrod in (on a Ringmaster you want it at about 1/2" away from the pivot), or having a super-long elevator horn (my Ringmaster has a horn that leaves a furrow in the ground when I land).  But that's not an aerodynamically ideal situation -- it's doing the best with what you have, to stay within the rules.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3340
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 10:35:04 AM »

(Clip)

The only real exception that I can think of to this is for Old Time stunt -- if you're building a Ringmaster, or some other plane with a ginormous elevator, then to keep it legal and have the thing work decently you really want to reduce the movement of the elevator.  This means either moving the pushrod in (on a Ringmaster you want it at about 1/2" away from the pivot), or having a super-long elevator horn (my Ringmaster has a horn that leaves a furrow in the ground when I land).  But that's not an aerodynamically ideal situation -- it's doing the best with what you have, to stay within the rules.


What do the Old Time Stunt rules have to do with anything about the bellcrank/control system in a Ringmaster?

Keith

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 10:48:09 AM »
What do the Old Time Stunt rules have to do with anything about the bellcrank/control system in a Ringmaster?

Keith

If you move the hinge line back to make the elevator a reasonable size you render the airplane ineligible for competition.  That's where the rules come in.  Since you can't modify the aerodynamics, per the rules, you have to work around the fact that there's a barn door back there.  Where a Flight Streak or a Skyray 35 elevator would move +/- 30 degrees, a Ringmaster elevator needs to move more like +/- 15.  The next-easiest solution is to slow down the controls.

If you build the plane with "ordinary" controls you can slow things down with extremely narrow spacing at the handle -- but then you hit the Netzband wall, because the springiness of the lines is amplified by the overall control system (handle-to-tail) geometry.  If you want positive control (as positive as you can get, at least), then you want to arrange to get the +/- 15 degrees motion at the elevator with full deflection of the bellcrank -- that necessitates the on-plane control geometry I'm prescribing.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline tom creasey

  • 1st. Lieutenant
  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 08:03:42 PM »
I think it boils down to the handle spacing you like. You can have different line spacing at the handle with the same sensitivity and control throw by changing things with the bellcrank and horns. I like the line spacing of the old Hot Rock 4" as I grew up with it and it gives a 1:1 ratio with a 4" bellcrank.

I have established numbers for stunt ships using Tom Morris systems as you have to drill the push rod hole in the bellcrank yourself if you're interested. For sub 600 planes using the smaller Morris horns the number is 11/16" and for full size stunters using the bigger Morris horns the number is 13/16.


Motorman

 Hey Motorman......thank you for responding......look at picture and this what I got......Tom Morris set up......installing in Vector 40........I measure from center of pivot out how far for pushrod ?

Thank you Tim for responding also.........I don't know if I get the whole thing you was talking about......I need to re-read it a few time to see if I get what your are saying

Tom
AMA 1073788

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 09:07:02 PM »
I need to re-read it a few time to see if I get what your are saying

Thank 'cuz I left out the summary: if you have to ask, just do what everyone else does.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: I have a question about bell crank
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 10:29:36 PM »
           I have my own theory about the location of the push rod hole location on the bell crank.......Could some one explain about location of push rod hole
.......some say closest to center pivot of bell crank with flaps only......or......location is always located closest to center pivot point.....or......locate hole where you prefer.......

     I would like to hear from you guys.....your  does and don't,...... why,....... where, and examples of different degree changes with different locations


    Thank you for helping

   I tried searching for a thread but came up with different topics .......Guess  I am not wording it right

Here's the process I use for control geometry:

1. Use the biggest bellcrank that will fit and have it move through the greatest possible angle. 
2. Limit control deflection to the max you need to maneuver.
3. Use a 3D analysis to calculate the geometry that makes the relationship between leadout travel and control deflection linear and symmetrical*.
4. Pick the handle spacing that works best for that geometry.

Items 1 and 2 maximize leverage over line springiness caused by line drag and elasticity. 

Given your email address, I can send you an Excel program that does the calculation of step 3.  You fiddle with the angles and arm lengths to get the linearity and symmetry.  It gives you the aerodynamic characteristics, but leaves some latitude for picking dimensions that optimize linkage weight, structure, and rigidity. For example, you can get the same aerodynamic outcome with different distances from the center of the bellcrank pivot to the bellcrank output hole to which the pushrod attaches if you keep that distance and the flap control horn input arm length in proportion.  The longer you make both those distances, the less force you'll have on the pushrod and the less effect you'll have from slop in the linkage, but the more the bellcrank and flap control horn will weigh, and the harder they will be to fit into the airplane.  One peculiar thing you'll discover fiddling with the geometry is that the angle that the bellcrank output hole is located relative to the input arm has a powerful effect on system linearity. 

*I was a tad too general above about control symmetry.  You should start with symmetry, then bias the relationship between flap and elevator deflection as needed to trim your airplane. Impacts, for example, seem to trim out with about 4.5 degrees of down elevator when flaps are centered.   

Handle spacing is a dependent variable.  When the airplane is built andf the control geometry is settled, there will be one best handle spacing (with some variation for air density and pilot).


The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here