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  • October 19, 2017, 07:30:37 PM

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Author Topic: Hutch's P-38 Lightning  (Read 8356 times)

Online wwwarbird

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2017, 05:53:09 PM »
Actually it was re painted OD and went to the South Pacific.

 Thanks for that info Jim, interesting stuff!  y1
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Wayne Willey
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2017, 09:16:02 PM »
Yeah, I don't think the P-38's saw too much action over Germany, and "YIPPEE" probably spent most of it's time posing over Burbank.

   They were extensively used in Europe, as escorts with much longer range than the P-47 or other available airplanes. They were supplanted by P-51 which was a generally better airplane, of course. A lot of the issues they found on the P-38 were because it was in a different performance range that the other existing fighters at the time. In particular it was the first airplane that could easily get into the transonic speed range, and then its pretty thick airfoil was a serious issue that was impractical to completely solve, once they realized the issue.

    Brett

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2017, 10:19:53 PM »
  In particular it was the first airplane that could easily get into the transonic speed range, and then its pretty thick airfoil was a serious issue that was impractical to completely solve, once they realized the issue.

    Brett

 Yeah, now that you mention that Brett I think I recall that the P-38 had some sort of issue with compression of airflow or something at extreme speeds in a dive, rendering the plane uncontrollable and/or unrecoverable.
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Wayne Willey
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2017, 11:56:54 PM »
Yeah, now that you mention that Brett I think I recall that the P-38 had some sort of issue with compression of airflow or something at extreme speeds in a dive, rendering the plane uncontrollable and/or unrecoverable.

   There were two problems, both related to transonic flow. The first- the controls "locking" in a dive at high altitude - was transonic flow over the wing. The airplane would dive at high altitude, where the speed of sound was slower because it was cold, the flow would choke over the top of the wing and the dive just got steeper. At lower altitudes this went away, but by then you are going like a bat out of hell, nearly vertically, and have to try to pull out. Sometimes they got out of it, and other times they didn't. They eventually diagnosed it, and came up with a deployable spoiler for the bottom of the wing, which altered it enough to retain control. The other was a severe buffeting in the stabilizer, which caused by transonic flow over the wing root. they spent a long time trying to solve it as a flutter issue, but the real solution was a large fillet around the pilot's pod.

      What it really needed was a much thinner wing. Then, as now, they wanted a thick airfoil to both improve the turn, provide space for internal parts, and for strength. But the thicker the wing, the more the air is accelerated as it moves around it, so at some speed, it deviates from the assumption of an incompressible fluid, hence a a compressibility problem. By the time they realized that, it was in production and trying to use a thinner airfoil would result in a complete redesign of the airplane.

     There were also substantial difficulties with the Allison engines. The P-38 was one of the few/only airplanes that had all the turbosupercharging intended for the maximum performance version of the engine, and it took a long time to work it all out. The airplane was designed as it was to house all the parts, the two scoops on the booms, for instance, were the turbosupercharger air intakes.

     Brett

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2017, 06:39:14 PM »

 More interesting stuff, thanks Brett.  y1
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Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2017, 11:13:17 PM »
More interesting stuff, thanks Brett.  y1

  You are welcome. Most of what I know about this was detailed very nicely in the late, lamented Lockheed Horizons quarterly magazine/house organ. It included an interview with The Man himself, Kelly Johnson, founder of the Skunk Works, designer of the Lightning, P-80 Shooting Star and it's brothers, the C-130,  F-104, U2, A-12/SR-71, D-21 and D-21B drones, the CL-1200 Lancer (which, had it been built, might have been a tough opponent for an F-15) and many others. ]

     Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2017, 01:05:23 AM »
Yeah, I don't think the P-38's saw too much action over Germany, and "YIPPEE" probably spent most of it's time posing over Burbank.
 

I am not sure if I really understand some of the comments regarding P-38 operations in Europe.  Anyway, just to set the record straight --

In August, 1942, the pilots of a P-38 and a P-40 share credit for the first German aircraft destroyed, a Fw 200 Condor, in the European Theater of Operations by the USAAF off the Icelandic coast,  In North Africa, P-38's saw action against German aircraft and then moved on to other locations in the Mediterranean, including Italy, where they were used against the Italian and German aircraft.  In the Italian theater, P-38 pilots are credited with 608 enemy aircraft destroyed in the air.  In the European theater, P-38's were used for bomber escort starting in November 1943 with significant numbers of victories, were later replaced in this role by P-51's and were then used through D-Day for bombing and strafing missions.  The German pilots called it der gabelschwanz Teufel (the fork-tail devil).

Keith

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2017, 08:15:57 AM »
 

I am not sure if I really understand some of the comments regarding P-38 operations in Europe.  Anyway, just to set the record straight --

In August, 1942, the pilots of a P-38 and a P-40 share credit for the first German aircraft destroyed, a Fw 200 Condor, in the European Theater of Operations by the USAAF off the Icelandic coast,  In North Africa, P-38's saw action against German aircraft and then moved on to other locations in the Mediterranean, including Italy, where they were used against the Italian and German aircraft.  In the Italian theater, P-38 pilots are credited with 608 enemy aircraft destroyed in the air.  In the European theater, P-38's were used for bomber escort starting in November 1943 with significant numbers of victories, were later replaced in this role by P-51's and were then used through D-Day for bombing and strafing missions.  The German pilots called it der gabelschwanz Teufel (the fork-tail devil).

Keith
I cant beleive I forgot/missed this info, I read the book " the Fork tailed devil" about the development of the P-38 and for some reason I simply dont recall it being that active in the european theater,, thanks for bringing this to light Mr. Trostle and Brett
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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2017, 11:04:53 PM »

 I guess what I really meant back there was that I knew the P-38's were used some in Europe, but I've just always associated them more with Pacific operations. Once the P-51 came along things changed pretty quickly though, especially in Europe.

 Thinking about all of this I just tracked down a photo that I recalled from long ago showing a large formation of P-38's decked out with invasion stripes, probably from D-Day or very shortly after. Also, the first P-38 I ever saw in person was in Oshkosh about 1980, all polished aluminum with big red "Der Gabelschwanz Teuful" nose art. Not sure where that one is these days.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2017, 09:01:27 PM »

 Well, I haven't touched the '38 for three weeks or better, pretty disappointing and way behind schedule for spring. Picked up a nagging cough that just won't go away and hanging out in a cloud of balsa dust just hasn't sounded fun. Still fighting it, waah, waah, waah...
 
 Before that though I did get the engines mounted, spinners fit, and the engine nacelles about 98% sanded to shape. Keeping the shapes the same during the process was a bit of a trick, sand on one for a bit, then the other, back to the other, back and forth back and forth. Anyway, getting very close to busting out the silkspan at this point...

Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A.
IC Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2017, 09:11:53 PM »

 Comparing the profile outline I started with to my redone version...
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A.
IC Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2017, 09:51:44 AM »
Making matching engine cowls/nacelles/fuselages is a lot of fun isn't it.   If the doctor doesn't clear me and the weather clear up you will be air borne before me.   You construction is looking great.
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Offline Michael Boucher

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2017, 04:20:47 AM »
HI Wayne, I Hope you still don't have the cough. If you do or for the next time, try drinking pineapple juice. It contains four times the stuff in cough medicine to get you to stop coughing. The P-38 is outstanding! All the best, Michael Boucher
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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2017, 06:45:42 PM »
HI Wayne, I Hope you still don't have the cough. If you do or for the next time, try drinking pineapple juice. It contains four times the stuff in cough medicine to get you to stop coughing.

 Thanks for the tip Michael, I'll keep it in mind. Does it help if you put a little vodka in with it?
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A.
IC Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

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Re: Hutch's P-38 Lightning
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2017, 08:54:05 PM »

 "Building Season" is fast approaching, back on the '38 soon...
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A.
IC Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member


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