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Author Topic: Fuel Tank Construction  (Read 1732 times)

Offline Mark Mc

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Fuel Tank Construction
« on: December 16, 2017, 12:14:52 AM »
I have a plane that I got at a swap meet last year.  It has the engine bearers drilled out for an upright Fox 35.  The previous owner was going to convert it to ignition, so he did some cutting and put a super tiny tank in it.  Then he lost interest and sold it for $10.00 at the swap meet.  I'm fixing it up now, but I need a tank for it.  It has almost no room in the fuselage, so I'm going to have to make a tank for it.  The area behind the firewall will just fit a rectangular tank that is 4.5cm wide, by 2cm high.  Doing the math, an 11cm long tank will give just over 3 ounces.  So 2cmx4.5cmx11cm it is.  I've got the tank cut and formed, but I'm not sure of the feed line location.  I was going to put it half-way up the 2cm outside wall at the very back.  But a quick search shows an earlier post talking about putting the feed line inlet at the bottom rear outside for a rectangular tank.  I'm going to be sport flying as I'm still a relative beginner.

Where should the feed line inlet bee for a rectangular tank like I'm making?

Mark

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2017, 05:14:04 AM »
            Mark, without seeing the plane or the orientation of the tank I will offer my experience. Your description so far is pretty much spot on. The height of the needle valve in relation to the pickup is relevant. As long as your on the correct side of the tank the outboard which you already are, the height isn't much of an issue unless your going inverted. The Fox though is a bit different from other engines. On profiles, the Fox runs better when the pickup is slightly higher than centerline,  A Fox doesn't experience the sane symptoms when mounted upright or inverted as they do mounted on a profile. Some will suggest 5/16"-3/8". While this is good advice visually to start with, the only way to fully know is to fly it.

 This is all pending on where the pickup is soldered inside the tank. Your square tank will feed with the pickup higher than the bottom outside corner. There could be some fuel left in the tank and it might even suck down every last drop. If you plan on going inverted, it could go richer making it difficult to recover to level, it might go leaner. Personally I would just try and fly it with the pickup slight raised off the bottom.  If possible, I would slightly cant the rear of your tank outboard ( Not excessively ) just slightly and make certain it's firmly secured. Keep the tank as close to the rear of the engine insuring you have as short as possible fuel line. Nothing works better than self experimentation. This is your best learning curve. While I've repaired hundreds of tanks,  I can say first hand that I've seen some of the craziest setups defy everything I've known and it worked just fine. Removing a tank and reworking it's feed line is a very simple task which can be done in a short time.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2017, 04:17:12 PM »
Going against what Ken is saying, maybe -- the nice thing about this group is that you can pick the advice you wanted to follow from the start!

If you're not using uniflow, then what Ken said.  (So, I'm not going completely against what Ken said).

If you're using uniflow, then it's the height of the uniflow vent's outlet inside the tank that matters -- that establishes the pressure at the inlet to the pickup tube.  I don't have miles of experience with solid tanks, but I generally put the pick up smack in the middle, up & down, and put the uniflow where it seems to belong.

If you're using a Fox, a 3 ounce tank isn't enough for a full pattern.  If you're going to use that 25LA you're talking about in the screw-removing thread, then you may get by if the plane is light enough.  Ditto if it's for OTS with the Fox.  I would consider tapering the tank by three or four millimeters at the back so that I could shim it up and down.  It's the back of the tank that matters when shimming, so that brings adjusting the tank height into the limits of what you can reasonably do at the field while minimizing the loss of tank volume.

Be ready to take the tank out, pop the back off, & adjust the height of the pickup or uniflow.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2017, 07:08:36 PM »
Ken, I chose a 4.5cm width for the tank because the actual room inside the fuse is 5cm wide.  I figured at 4.5cm I can kick out the rear of the tank about a half cm, or about 1/8 inch.  There really is no room for vertical movement unless I do major rework to the fuse.  I don't really want to put that much work into a $10.00 plane, but we'll see.  Inverted is what I'm working towards now.  I'm really just a beginner flyer.  I build 10 times more than I fly.  Which is good if I'm going to be taking the back of the tank off repeatedly.

Tim, I'm sorta going uniflow.  The way the previous owner had the plane set up, he has one hole in the firewall for the pickup, and on the upper inboard side just aft of the firewall he has a cutout for the two fill/vent tubes from the odd little tank he was going to use for his ignition engine.  I'll have the pickup tube matched to the hole in the firewall, and two tubes at the cutout behind the firewall.  One will be a fill overflow tube that gets capped, and one will be a tube that faces forward on one end, and crosses over to the outboard side where I planned to solder the other end of it about an inch ahead of the end of the pickup tube.

I wasn't planning on the .25LA-S on this one.  I'm going to put in a well-used Fox 35 I got at the club banquet last winter, since the engine bearers are already drilled out for a Fox 35.  As I said, I'm just a beginner, so I don't need a full pattern's worth of fuel.  About 3 1/2 to 4 minutes is all I'm looking for.  I hope to actually get off my butt and compete in Beginner's Pattern this year, but OTS or the full AMA Pattern are still a ways out.

Thanks for all the advice, Guys.

Mark

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2017, 07:19:43 PM »
Should be OK for beginner.  If you want to go to the effort, you can taper the tank back-to-front to get the rearward kick-out with a bit more capacity (the kick-out doesn't do anything for you on the inboard side of the tank -- just the outboard).

Best of luck, and if you're competing in Beginner's then the point is to just get in the air.  I think I only completed one entire flight in Beginner before I started crashing in Intermediate, instead, so don't feel like you have to fly well to compete.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2017, 06:28:51 AM »
             I chose to write what I did based on Mark's experience. He did mention that he's a beginner and typically beginner's are not flying the more difficult maneuvers. I didn't even want to mention uniflow because of this. While uniflow tanks regulate the head pressure to a enable a more stable from start to finish run, I feel it's better for a beginner to work up to using a tank of this design. There's nothing difficult about using a standard vent tank. This style of tank works well with muffler pressure. The only issue I have is the initial maneuvers on a full tank where the engine is running rich. Many times, a Fox .35 is not very happy on a uniflow tank if the plane is vibrating. Aside from a few I run chicken hoppers on, they're all set up with standard vent tanks. If the Fox is run rich, it's going to be quite thirsty. If you manage to work your way up to the OT pattern, 3 oz. is cutting it close with the Fox. However this will get you enough air time to play with. Just keep in mind that your going to need to launch rich and progressively the engine will lean as the fuel load diminishes.

         Mark, you mentioned that the tank will not move up due to fuselage constraints. If needed, you could shim the engine up from the bearers. This really shouldn't be necessary though because by the description your offering, the Fox centerline should already be higher. This is where it will run fine upright until you go inverted which now places the engine centerline lower than the tank centerline making the engine go rich.  Mark, are you the same fellow responsible for the wonderful builds on the Cox forum? Ken
               

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2017, 03:35:16 PM »
*** SIGH ***

I should have known my infamy would eventually catch up with me.  Yup, I'm that Mark...

Ken, if anything, I've been looking at it and wondering how I might beef up the bottom of the bearers and lower the engine by about an 1/8 of an inch or so.  The thinnest maple I have is 3/8", so I'd have to plane it a little before gluing it to the bottom of the existing bearers and the the sides, then trim down the top of the bearers.  But I didn't want to do that much work until I try flying it.

Tim, I'm good at the crashing part already.  Maybe I should just jump up to Intermediate now.  After all, if I gotta crash, might as well crash in a better class.

Mark

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2017, 04:17:20 PM »
Tim, I'm good at the crashing part already.  Maybe I should just jump up to Intermediate now.  After all, if I gotta crash, might as well crash in a better class.

It depends on where you want to go with all of this.  I was pushing to get good fast, which means always advancing "early" -- you get fewer trophies that way, but it focuses the mind well.

Beginner is a really good place to learn about engine management, and how to conduct yourself at a contest (like, how not to trip over the lines of Experts).  They flying isn't exactly secondary, but it's not the whole.  Once you're past tripping over your competitions lines regularly, you can fly inverted, you can get the engine started in less than a minute nine times out of ten, and you can remember (and do) all of the tricks at least some of the time -- yes, move up to Intermediate.

And by "doing the tricks" I mean that if a judge, who knows what's coming up, can look at your maneuver and say "yes, I guess that's the right manuver", then you've done the trick.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Fuel Tank Construction
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2017, 06:34:22 PM »
Well, if next year's Spring Tune-Up is like this year's, I could do that.  Seeing as no one entered in either Beginner or Intermediate this year.

But, really, I'm only going to enter Beginner to enter Beginner.  I fly for fun, not to compete.  I guess you'd call me a Sport Pilot, rather than a Pattern Pilot.  But I figure I'll do Beginner, and then maybe Intermediate for the fun of it, but not to win.

Mark


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