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Author Topic: engine offset on a profile  (Read 2564 times)

Offline Jim Morris

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engine offset on a profile
« on: July 28, 2013, 07:48:46 PM »
I have a Mod Twister that I just got running pretty good with an LA40. It has 2 deg engine pads and was wondering if engine offset is still the norm or is it something of the past. It wouldnt take much to build some aluminum pads to replace them if that would be better. It flys pretty good,but always looking for improvements. Thanks.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 12:24:58 AM »
I set my profiles up for zero offset on the engine and zero rudder offset.  But, if I'm not sure of the offsets I try to err on the side that yaws the plane to the outside.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 09:08:52 AM »
In my experience, one or two degrees is not going to hurt the flying of the plane.  In fact it will help make sure the plane goes out on take off and some times when lines might go slack.   I myself still put in a little rudder off set.   The leadout adjustment can be done to make up for the line tension.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 08:29:43 PM »
I like a wee bit of right thrust, because it helps get the lines tight again quicker. Might just allow me to save the plane when the lines get slack, for whatever reason. They all get slack sometimes, most likely due to wind or turbulence, but never due to PE.  LL~ Steve
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Offline phil c

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 10:47:51 PM »
If you look at the force diagram on a full body stunter the MAC of the wing is offset towards the tip, due to the fact the wing flies in a circle. The tip has farther to go and has to fly faster. Howard Rush posted something about developing the equation for this and it depends on the span of the wing relative to the length of the lines.  Bottom line is that for a typical 4-5 ft. span the MAC is ~.4-.5in. outboard.  With a centerline mounted engine the thrustline is inboard of the drag of the wing by that much.  And tip weight is needed to keep the flying CG at least slightly further outboard.

On a profile the engine is automatically half  the thickness of the fuselage(assuming equal length panels) outboard, which cuts a good bit out of that offset.  If you sketch it up, it's easy to see that by cutting the out thrust into the outboard side of the motor mounts it's pretty easy to put the thrust line on the center of the wing inboard of the MAC, where it belongs.  All of the offset goes into moving the thrust line.

I've seen any number of people add engine offset with 1/8 or 3/16 in. aluminum shims machined with 2-3 degrees of angle for out thrust.  The thickness of the shims can completely negate the the offset effect.
phil Cartier

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 01:21:28 PM »
I sink the aluminum shims to ply doubler surface level, but even then, you should make sure thrust line passes back inward (spanwise) at least to the c.g. position. Martin Hepperle used to have a nice derivation of spanwise lift center position (not MAC) for controlline models with rectangular wings, which would be a bit outboard of its position for tapered wings, and it depends as Phil says on span and line length. I copied his derivation and results, but am not where I can access them. I know I've posted them here or there, and the oft-shunned search will probably find them. They are based on finding the spanwise point where inboard and outboard lifting moments total zero (balance). The technique can be extended to other shaped wings, but phil's figures are pretty close for planes you fly. The spanwise drag center should coincide with the lift center computed for rectangular wings.

Essentially, all this means is that one should just be careful that the thrust line doesn't yaw the plane inward on the circle. You get some help from drag, but some offset is probably desirable, especially when wings aren't placed symmetrically spanwise - or as Leonard on SSWF would point out fuselages aren't placed at center span. Anyway, I can't see a couple degrees out thrust hurting anything, although the thought that the outward thrust component from modest offset is signicant is erroneous. It's yawing torques that concern us most, to prevent greater tension losses than an couple degrees worth of thrust. Out thrust ensures the correct yaw angle for the speed you choose. If you can get things perfectly tangential without out thrust or rudder offset (which I don't advocate)(Edit: I meant that I don't advocate much, if any, rudderoffset), then you're speed independent. 'not sure that anyone can do that. Since this is not the "south forty," called the engineering forum, I will not explain why, my last proof of this statement having elicited a lot of abuse from those who "don't need no steenking math." That post probably still lurks around here somewhere anyway.

SK
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:00:47 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 03:41:22 PM »
.... It wouldnt take much to build some aluminum pads to replace them if that would be better. It flys pretty good,but always looking for improvements. Thanks.

Jim,
Sounds like you're an experimentin' kinda guy.   <=   Some guys look at flight trimming as a chore and just want to get it done fast, but others enjoy the process of "always looking for improvements".  I discovered this underrated source of enjoyment in the last few months, and found that making small systematic changes and experiencing the results is different and much more fun than just memorizing a list of trim steps on paper or a forum, as important as this is too.  And most satisfying of all is putting your plane through a series of trim changes and finding a combination that results in a plane that flies better (sometimes much better) than it did after you first got it flying just decently.  It's a great feeling of accomplishment.   y1

There are too many variables in a plane to be able to respond to your question with a definite 0 degrees, 2 degrees, etc.  Give it a try with no offset.  If your offset pads are Brodak, you probably have a 3 degree pair too.  Try that as well.  It may be necessary to change tipweight and/or leadout position with each change of offset to get the best trim for that amount of offset.  Taking notes is a good idea so you can always get back to where you were if your bird starts turning into a dog.   LL~

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Good trimming.  Let us know how it goes.

Kim Mortimore
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Offline Jim Morris

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 06:57:59 PM »
Thanks for all the replys, I did make some zero deg engine pads and tried them, but I was fighting engine runs and tank problems.Got the tank worked out and engine run pretty good but Im flying on too long of lines. They are labled 61ft but the guys I fly with have bigger planes and they say theirs is 61ft and mine are at least a foot longer. I will cut my lines down and try all this again. I didnt notice a "positive" result in zero deg thrust when I tried it though. Again, trying props and getting my lines correct,I will try it again unless its good. No,I really dont like experimenting unless the stuff just isnt working,but if one wants the best performance from their ship then yes its part of the game.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: engine offset on a profile
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 03:30:58 AM »
An LA40 should power a Twister, no problem. What venturi, what prop, what fuel, what kind of engine run are you trying to achieve? If you are running this engine at a friendly rpm with an appropriate prop, motor pad thickness should be moot as long as you are not angling the thrust inward. Easy enough to do, since profile bodies frequently warp. Look down at the plane directly, see if the nose or rudder alignment creates inboard thrust. I have been surprised more than once when checking this. A few of my profiles only exhibited this difficulty after the bolts were cinched up tight. Offset thrust wedges can adjust this easily enough. A slightly warped fues usually isn't a problem as long as the flying surfaces are correctly lined up and engine is angled slightly towards the outside of the circle.

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