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Author Topic: Endgame IV Build  (Read 917674 times)

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #100 on: March 08, 2025, 04:14:17 PM »
72 oz ready to fly with 5s 4200 battery.  Removed 3@ of the pocket hinges.  ^ @ flap was way too many and getting the hinge wire to hit 12 .030 holes was taking my patience.  Also had to enlarge the battery hatch to fit the larger battery.  I was totally too tail heavy so instead of adding lead, I added battery. 3oz under getting the "Miss Piggie Decal".  I am comfortable flying a heavy plane and I think I have the power and with 710 squares I hope I am OK.  It balances at just under 30% of center chord which has me worried some. It gets it's stripes, registration and name Monday.  I am thinking of calling it what it is - "Endgame Mk4" on the Wing and "Hammerhead" on the fuselage side....or not.

Already getting the butterflies.  1st flight probably late this week.

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #101 on: March 08, 2025, 07:52:38 PM »
Dang Ken, I'm sure reminded of a Hammer head Shark with this one..... Looks very interesting. I'm looking forward to flight reports as you tune it up. Congrat's on a fine job.  y1

John M.
I am renaming the plane to Hammerhead.  It will still say Endgame Mk4 on the Fuselage but the wing is going to say Hammerhead.  Working on the wing art now.  Nothing exotic. Not sure which one I will use.
May keep Endgame on the wing and put this on the fuselage side.
Ken
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Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2025, 06:59:03 AM »
Very nice Ken.  By the way I like logo number 3!

Don

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #103 on: March 09, 2025, 12:17:02 PM »
Very nice Ken.  By the way I like logo number 3!

Don

Me too!!

Ken, very nice model.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #104 on: March 09, 2025, 12:41:11 PM »
Yup,  number 3 is the way to go!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2025, 01:07:10 PM »
So Far the votes are 1-0, 2-0, 3-5, 4-0 both on and off this thread.  I think I will use 4... LL~
It is 3 by a wide margin.

ken
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2025, 03:16:47 PM »
I'm happy to ee this Ken. It truly helps describe the approach and mission of your work with this concept. It looks devastatingly lethal and project's maximum purpose. By the way, #3's the one.

John M.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2025, 09:19:30 PM »
Tomorrow, she loses her virginity.  Bench trimmed and pre-flight completed.  All that is left is wrapping the leadouts and mounting the Canard.  I always do that right before flying the first time.  I have the Canard off for the pictures since I did a 20 second full power run to test the electronics.  I cannot believe how much air that little 2320 motor produces.  I needed nose weight so my flight battery will be a 5s 4200.  Lots of 1 min trim flights in that puppy.  Balance came out at around 25% center chord.

Still have a lot of monokote trim and a few decals.  The finish is a joke but it looks great at 10'.  I will try and get some video.  My trim regiment is to get wings level at 5.2-4 then some turns and a few laps inverted to get the timer set.  Before I open it up to the full pattern I do an hourglass and overhead 8.  If the trim lets me do that without having to change my underwear, then it is full patterns and trim baby trim.

This project has been a real adventure.  Cramming a twin into a single motor fuselage and getting the canard to work with all the pushrods, wires (I have 18 pairs of bullet connectors and 10 ball links in play).

I applied the monokote with the intention of stripping it off if the plane performs well and refinishing with a classical silkspan and dope finish.
It weighed in at 72oz with an empty battery which puts her under 15ozft2 so she doesn't get the Mrs. Piggie decal.

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #108 on: March 13, 2025, 12:27:21 PM »
First flight in the books.  Not much progress on the trim schedule but I can confirm that the 5" bellcrank and the up front Canard work as hoped.  The plane is rock solid in level flight even being a bit tail heavy.  It takes off and lands like it has tricycle gear with a long controllable glide.  Only time for two sets of corners (really more like hard bumps) which responded better than the first canard.  Line tension good through 45 degrees.  Needs to speed up a bit.  First flight was a 5.8.  I want no more that a 5.4.  Now that the butterflies are gone I can proceed with the real trim.

2nd flight was a disaster with a happy ending.  A wheel fell off just as the motors started.  it took nearly 1/2 lap but I got it air born with one wheel and a strut.  The inboard motor was not running and I flew it out on just the outboard.  I was told it would fly on one motor.  They were right, I could even maneuver some and had good line tension.  Still don't know why it stopped or for sure if it ever started.  The inboard prop shows signs of a prop strike which may have shut off the inboard ESC or far worse, the inboard didn't arm.  I will fix these little things and get back out again ASAP.

One thing that is abundantly clear.  I need a portable rack to put her on upside down to do trim.  I have a weak knee and getting my 220lb carcass up off of the ground is becoming a two man job.

Ken

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3rPGDabplmw

I lost an update somewhere between here and there.  I found the reason the outboard, yes it was the outboard not the inboard that didn't start.  Some idiot forgot to turn off the programming mode on the timer so it thought it only had 1 ESC.  The Spin 33 beeps when it arms so takeoff protocol now includes "Do not start the timer if you don't get two beeps"!  I also learned that you really have to tighten the prop on the reversed one.  I found that the castle propnut has a purpose.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2025, 07:38:19 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Mike Morrow

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #109 on: March 13, 2025, 06:14:56 PM »
I've enjoyed watching your progress with this. Looking forward to hearing how it trims out for you. Thanks for sharing it.

Mike

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #110 on: March 16, 2025, 10:16:34 PM »
Time to close the build and open the trim thread.  Today was the first flight with some limited maneuvering.  Some loops and inverted a square and some lazy eights.  The canard in clean air works better than the one on Endgame III behind the prop.  The plane turns effortlessly and draws a straight line without fighting.  Turns are equal and no hint of hunting.  It needs some speed.  Right now it is turning a 6.0.  I need it down to at least a 5.6.  I think I want more pitch as well.  I am using BA 10-5s.  I think it will do better on a 6.  I am completely happy so far with my decision to go with a 5" bellcrank.  The controls are so solid.  The logarithmic box makes everything adjustable through one bottom hatch.  The bench trimming routine is quite different with the Canard.  Step 1 is to get the canard movement equal, then the elevators in line with the canard centered and locked down, and finally the flaps get centered.

The video is the first flight with maneuvering. The camera man must have misunderstood me when I asked him to not follow the plane.  I am testing limits and much of it was flown upwind.  I like to see how my planes perform when placed in the wrong spots.

The Twin has a completely different feel.  I don't know how to describe it yet, other than to say if you get the opportunity to fly one you will know what I am talking about.

Ken


« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 07:22:13 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2025, 06:11:27 PM »
Very cool...
Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2025, 08:56:09 PM »
Next exciting adventure.  These are the things you get right on the next one you build.  I drew up plans and located all of the components.  My original nacelles were an inch longer.  An unnamed expert in twins suggested that I get the motors as close to the wing as I could, so I shortened them an inch.  First flight I kept looking for the blinking light from the timer.  You guessed it, I had moved the prop arc directly in line with the timer light.  Time to call Mr. Gadget to see what I could do about it.  On one of the RC forums there was a discussion about lights.  They mentioned some that worked off of receiver servo connection and were powered by the servo lead.  Then it dawned on me that the Fiorotti timer has a servo connection - the landing gear.  If I am correct, and I find out Monday, this little light that is designed to run off of an RC channel should light up when the timer signals gear up and gear down for about 3 seconds or will light up when the timer starts and go out when the retracts signal is sent and come back on with the extend signal.  Either will tell me it is time to get back upright and ready to land.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2025, 03:32:03 PM »
Well so much for the extra light off of the timer for now.  When attached to the gear port it either stays on all the time or blinks all the time depending on which way I put it in.  That tells me that the signal from the timer to the LG servo is on full time.  Bummer.  Can anybody tell me where I can get a schmatic of the Fiorotti timer to tell me which pins I could solder a second light in parallel?

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2025, 10:03:18 PM »
The answer to the great light placement debacle has been solved.  Rogerio is making one with a 12" lead for the LED.  This along with a loosening of one of the canard bearings has led me to the conclusion that I need to re-do the lower nose.  In doing that I can reposition the battery box to help shift the CG forward.  Beats adding lead.

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2025, 11:22:57 PM »
Tuesday I finally got past the gross trim issues and got her close enough to do a pattern.  Wind was around 10 so I was a bit cautious. I did my 2 minute qualifier I discussed earlier with a surprisingly easy vertical 8 and hourglass.  No issues in the transitions on the V8 or the 3rd corner of the hourglass.  So a fresh battery and we are off to a full pattern.  Still needs some balancing between the turn rates and a bit no a bunch tail heavy but overall very flyable.  Tracks well in maneuvers, better than expected and corners tighter than it needs too.  Those are easy fixes.  Line tension is really good over 45 degrees and it turns well overhead.  Enough of the good stuff.  Here is the bad.  It bounces around like a fishing cork on a windswept pond in level upright.  Not as bad inverted.  I am hoping that the CG change will fix that.  It could have been the wind.  The timer was working overtime keeping the groundspeed constant.  It wasn't hunting, it was bouncing.  Once under control it was rock solid.  Next bad thing.  A funny inboard yaw entering the RWO and the OH8.  It immediately self-corrected in both places but if was quite distracting.  I have the inboard motor running slightly faster than the outboard which should produce the opposite.  Boost and brake should be equal between the ESC's but it acted like the outboard got more boost than the inboard.  Nothing anywhere else turning vertical from level flight.  Now for the next to last bad thing.  I think, contrary to my own beliefs and those that know far more than I about hinge lines that they need to be sealed or at least covered so I am going to use some overhead projector transparency material to make hinge-line covers.  This may be part of the bouncing in wind...or not.  And Finally (drum roll) the Canard is picking up slop.  One bearing has broken loose and lets the Canard wiggle. 

Ken


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Online Trostle

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2025, 10:20:40 AM »

 Tracks well in maneuvers, better than expected and corners tighter than it needs too.   

Ken

How can "corners tighter than it needs to" be a problem?  It is my understanding of the rules that if one pilot has "tighter" corners than another pilot, everything else be equal, the the pilot with the "tighter" corners will score better.

Keith

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2025, 11:23:36 AM »
How can "corners tighter than it needs to" be a problem?  It is my understanding of the rules that if one pilot has "tighter" corners than another pilot, everything else be equal, the the pilot with the "tighter" corners will score better.

Keith

There is a point where the quality of the corner matters.  I know you have not seen one of my canards fly but they will corner so tight as to appear to stop and pivot.  Most everybody that has seen me fly that way has commented that it is irritating and detracts from the overall presentation and that included judges.  I tend to agree.  I know the rule book gives the higher points to the tighter corners all other things being equal, I just don't think it works out that way, at least not around here.  The point of the canard never was a tighter corner, only a better one.  It's real strength is in moving the center of rotation closer to the visual center of the plane so that it present a better visual track, especially in rounds.   



The video was shot AFTER I was convinced that the corners were too tight and are about 1/2 of what it was capable of.  What I am after with the twin is just about what is in the video.  I suspect the repeated testing of just how tight Endgame III could turn ultimately caused the outboard wing to fold.

Ken
« Last Edit: March 28, 2025, 05:59:12 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2025, 06:26:01 PM »
The initial flights with the barrel hinges and no flap sealing were not encouraging.  It flies great in a maneuver but in level flight it shows all the symptoms flap sealing deals with.  Inconsistent level in and out of wind primarily.  So, how do you seal a barrel hinge?  Simple, you can't.  You have to cover it.   I found a box of overhead projector sheets from back in the 80's that were paper thin, stiff and made to withstand heat.  So I cut 3/4" strips, painted them to match the monokote and glued them on using Elmers spray glue.  They are only attached to the wing and just cover the hinge line of the flap.  No bind.  The hardest part was figuring out how to put them on and painted.  First wing took an hour and after three tries only looks marginally crappy but I got the method figured out.  Next three panel's took 15 minutes total. Should work.

Ken
 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 07:50:26 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2025, 11:45:01 PM »
The hinge covers worked great.  No more bouncing!  I have questions on motors.  Which one should be the clockwise rotation and what should be the RPM differential.  I use the Fiorotti timer.  Below is "proof of life".  I am finishing it a little bit at a time.
The green tape is holding on the new hatch so that I can adjust the canard lever.  Next it is stars.  The Red stripe is really the flap cover. Our local official plane namer dubbed it Hammerhead. 

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2025, 11:11:36 PM »
Couple of snapshots of the first attempt at a full pattern.  The flight was cut short by an inadequately charged battery, so she still is a virgin.

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2025, 04:53:36 PM »
Just about declare victory when my timer programming wire decided to come loose.  I couldn't fly until I got that fixed.  Next trip on the 2nd flight my inboard motor decided to break a mount and set me back another week.  This is definitely NOT a calm air plane.  It needs wind.  It really kicks up a wake and I don't walk backwards well.  I think I may have a design flaw that would require new nacelles.  I have never paid much attention to nose length except as a way to balance the plane.  I have never thought in terms of the distance the thrust is from the plane's C/G and how that affects performance.  I am 2 1/2" from prop to wing LE and 5" from the C/G.  When I see pix of other twins, they seem to be about 1" further out from the wing.  Anyone have any insight on this?

Ken
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2025, 05:33:36 PM »
Most twins to this date have been designed for IC power. That requires, in most cases, that the nose moment on the Nacelles be long enough to mount the engines with a proper sized fuel tank behind it. Designing for E-power changes that, but as far as I'm aware, we, with the possible exception of Bobby Hunt, not much thought has gone into determining what might be best way to proceed using E-Power.

I prefer to "sum the moments" and try to achieve my desired balance, using the moments being moved forward or back as needed.  I suspect that you may want to look at going flapless. Just use your Canards and Elevators, but what do I know? You're the one with the actual flying design. Still, mightn't there be a way to lock out the flaps to test the idea?

Best wishes, John M.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2025, 06:19:20 PM »
Most twins to this date have been designed for IC power. That requires, in most cases, that the nose moment on the Nacelles be long enough to mount the engines with a proper sized fuel tank behind it. Designing for E-power changes that, but as far as I'm aware, we, with the possible exception of Bobby Hunt, not much thought has gone into determining what might be best way to proceed using E-Power.

I prefer to "sum the moments" and try to achieve my desired balance, using the moments being moved forward or back as needed.  I suspect that you may want to look at going flapless. Just use your Canards and Elevators, but what do I know? You're the one with the actual flying design. Still, mightn't there be a way to lock out the flaps to test the idea?

Best wishes, John M.
There is and I am going to try it later this year.  I have discussed it with my little brother who is a test pilot and teaches aerodynamics.  He suggested doing the same thing.  He said there is a lot of research going into canards for fighters, even some possible retrofits.

Brave new world.

Ken
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #124 on: May 31, 2025, 08:36:05 PM »
As far as I'm aware, we, with the possible exception of Bobby Hunt, not much thought has gone into determining what might be best way to proceed using E-Power.

Still, mightn't there be a way to lock out the flaps to test the idea?
John, you have hit on two things I plan to peruse.  Bob Hunt mentioned on the zoom session Friday that distance from the prop to the CG made a difference.  This plane will "kiss" an intersection better than anything I have ever flown.  I was attributing that to the canard when all along it was the short nacelles.  That also explains why it is so easy to keep loops round.

On the other issue, it just so happens that Endgame III (Rip) and IV had detachable (not removable, they had that too) flaps, both intended to test the canard/elevator only idea.  It is simple enough to be done at the field.  I have also made the movement of the canard adjustable on IV.  It was fixed on III.  I am guessing without the flaps I will need more throw on the canard.  I added a hatch over the canard reducing arm that lets me adjust it like you would an elevator.

Ken

Cruising the full size aircraft I ran across the Avanti EVO series.  Thought this comment on their three wing (Canard) design was worthy of reposting:

"The three lifting surfaces on Avanti are used for various purposes. The purpose of the forward wing surface, also known as a canard, is to reduce the main wing loading while streamlining the airflow over the main wing. The canard also increases the aircraft’s maneuverability, particularly at high angles of attack, including during a stall. The canard configuration enables safe stalling capabilities and short takeoff and landing (STOL) performance. The static and dynamic stability of the aircraft is significantly improved through the design."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2025, 05:46:04 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2025, 06:33:15 PM »
Finished at last!  Sunday, God willing will be it's second pattern and first official!  Nothing like practice to make for high scores.  Hell, if you place last you still placed!  I may get out tomorrow to test the change in prop rotation.  Fixed the misplaced "4" on the logo.  Pray for light winds, 5-10.  I may just surprise everyone.

Ken
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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2025, 06:21:19 PM »
Well the surprise was on me.  Need to switch ESC's and go to 6s batteries.  Today took 4013 out of 4200 and it started to lag in the hourglass.  I cut it short, free flighted through the overhead eight and did an itty-bitty cloverleaf just so I could say I flew the entire pattern. See for yourself if you need a good laugh:



The plane flies like nothing I have ever owned.  Like it is on rails.  I will have to adjust to how tight it can corner. Couple more flights will fix that.  Someone forgot to tell the camera man not to follow the plane in the OH8.  It really wasn't that bad!

Now for the "how can I save battery".  I am running 10,020 RPM on both motors with BadAss 10x6 props.  No vibration I can hear.  I cannot hear any boost anywhere in the pattern from the center.  I am sure I am getting very little overhead.  I have been told that I could run a lower pitch and higher RPM and save battery.  I was thinking 10,200 and a 10x5 prop.  I am also going to cut the elevator fences from 1/8" to 1/16"

If that gets me enough to be able to do a full sized clover  I will fly it Sunday.   

After a bit of watching the video I did some lap time checks.  Level flight after takeoff 5.4 (Heaven), Inverted 5.3 (Close, sensor a bit off) and level after pattern 5.7.  That one needs to be around 5.5.

The BadAss charts tell me that my maximum continuous power fir the 2 2320's is 930 Watts.  The 3515 that was going in the nose before I turned it into a twin was 1200 Watts.  The plane weighs the same as Endgame III at 70oz which easily completed a pattern on a 6s 2800.  I am baffled why I need 4000.

Ken                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
« Last Edit: June 07, 2025, 07:38:09 AM by Ken Culbertson »
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2025, 08:09:46 AM »
I wasn't able to solve the battery issue before the Gieseke which is sad.  It was to be the planes "Debutant Ball".  Another one in the fall.  I need help finding a 6s >=30A ESC with BEC that is as close in width as the Jeti Spin 33 Pro.  23cm if the specs are right.  I can probably go 25 without having to redesign the nose.  Any help will help.

Ken

Update - A new member of our flying group is also an avid RC flier.  He introduced us to the racing drone ESC's he is using successfully for control line.  I just ordered two Flycolor 40A 6S ESCs that are both shorter and narrower than the Spin 33.  According to him they have a very fast response time.  We will see!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2025, 11:07:32 PM by Ken Culbertson »
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Endgame IV Build
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2025, 06:49:01 PM »
Two brand new FlyColor 40A 6S ESC's.  Saved a couple of ounces.  They have a very distinct test run which is nearly immediate after starting the timer.  Get a half speed 1 second burst on both motors.  Now I have no choice but to move the timer...yuck.  I pray the 6s 10-5 combo works. 

Sometimes electric really sucks but not often.

Ken

AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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