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Author Topic: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge  (Read 1200 times)

Offline doug coursey

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elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« on: March 10, 2023, 06:28:40 AM »
building a nobler and have a problem. At full deflection on up and down at 45 degrees the leading edge of the elevator is a little higher than the stab trailing edge..Its about 1/16 inch higher.The stab and ele are 1/2 thick.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2023, 07:15:03 AM »
building a nobler and have a problem. At full deflection on up and down at 45 degrees the leading edge of the elevator is a little higher than the stab trailing edge..Its about 1/16 inch higher.The stab and ele are 1/2 thick.
Can you tell us the shape of both the Stab TE and the elevator LE.  The original Nobler was round on both and used cloth hinges which roll the elevator around the radius of the stab.  If you used the DuBro type you would normally leave the TE of the stab square and either round or angle the elevator to allow deflection.  If it is angled and the same thickness, it will always be higher/lower than the stab.  If you have not covered the elevators yet you can increase the angle till it is even with the stab which will be significant at 45 degrees or better, round it slightly at the rear of the angle.  BUT....

IMHO this is not much of an issue with the stab and I probably would leave it as is unless it was "bothering" me because I doubt it will have much effect on performance.  If you need 45 degrees deflection you are already well outside the performance envelope.  If you need full deflection I doubt that the turbulence at the hinge line will be significantly different once they are sealed.  Many of us make our elevators about 1/8" thinner than the stab but that is for a different reason.   I use Robarts hinges on the stab and imbed the elevator 1/4" into the stab.  On flaps I use the flat wing TE with rounded flap LE.

Stab LE/TE shape has been a frequent topic here.  If you can trick the search into finding some of the threads you will need popcorn to read it all.

Good Luck - Ken
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2023, 07:49:40 AM »
I really doubt this will create any noticeable problem flying.  On the subject of edge shape,  I am a strong proponent of fully rounding BOTH edges-not too concerned about looks.  The issue to me is airflow shear.  With the stab or wing trailing edge square you have created an effectual knife to shear off air flow just when you need to try keeping the boundary layer attached to the flaps as much as possible, even though it is largely broken away by then.   

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2023, 08:21:55 AM »
In my experience of building and flying model planes is that if the elevtor and stab are in alignment when in neutral you will have no problem.  But you will find that 45 degree movement both ways is excessive except in panic moments. D>K
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Offline doug coursey

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2023, 08:54:36 AM »
Can you tell us the shape of both the Stab TE and the elevator LE.  The original Nobler was round on both and used cloth hinges which roll the elevator around the radius of the stab.  If you used the DuBro type you would normally leave the TE of the stab square and either round or angle the elevator to allow deflection.  If it is angled and the same thickness, it will always be higher/lower than the stab.  If you have not covered the elevators yet you can increase the angle till it is even with the stab which will be significant at 45 degrees or better, round it slightly at the rear of the angle.  BUT....

IMHO this is not much of an issue with the stab and I probably would leave it as is unless it was "bothering" me because I doubt it will have much effect on performance.  If you need 45 degrees deflection you are already well outside the performance envelope.  If you need full deflection I doubt that the turbulence at the hinge line will be significantly different once they are sealed.  Many of us make our elevators about 1/8" thinner than the stab but that is for a different reason.   I use Robarts hinges on the stab and imbed the elevator 1/4" into the stab.  On flaps I use the flat wing TE with rounded flap LE.

Stab LE/TE shape has been a frequent topic here.  If you can trick the search into finding some of the threads you will need popcorn to read it all.

Good Luck - Ken

THE STAB AND ELE ARE TAPERED LIKE THE PLANS..THE STAB LE IS FLAT AND THE ELE IS TAPERED ABOUT 40 OR 45 DEGREES...WHEN THEY ARE LEVEL EVERYTHING IS ALIGNED PERFECT...45 DEGREES IS WHAT TRAVEL I ENDED UP WITH AT THE TAPER ON THE ELE.  ITS JUST THAT WHEN THE ELE IS DEFLECTED THE FLOW ACROSS THE STAB IS NOT SMOOTH WHEN IT HITS THE ELE.. I MAY JUST TAPER THE PART WHERE THE STAB AND ELE MEET KIND OF LIKE A 3 ANGLE VALVE SEAT ON CAR CYLINDER HEADS TO SMOOTH THE FLOW ACROSS THE ELE...I MAY NOT END UP WITH 45 DGREES TRAVEL AFTER ALL THE CONTROLS ARE HOOKED UP. I ONLY USE AS MUCH CONTROL AS I NEED WHEN I FLY. I AM INCREASING THE ELE TRAVEL MORE THAN FLAP TRAVEL,I HAVE EQUAL LENGHT WINGS  SO MORE FLAP AND WING AREA AND SINCE THE ELEVATORS ARE SMALL I AM USING 1" AT THE FLAP HORN AND 3/4" AT THE ELE HORN TO INCREASE ELE TRAVEL.DOUG
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 09:49:17 AM by doug coursey »
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2023, 02:28:30 PM »
It just struck me that all of the Noblers that I remember, up to and including the Bear, had rounded Stab TE's.  What plans are you working from?  As to your proposed solution.  Works for me.

Ken
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Offline doug coursey

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2023, 03:08:15 PM »
It just struck me that all of the Noblers that I remember, up to and including the Bear, had rounded Stab TE's.  What plans are you working from?  As to your proposed solution.  Works for me.

Ken
ITS A BRODAK KIT BUT I AM USING RIBS FOR THE 57 NOBLER I GOT FROM RSM....THE PLANS SHOW A FLAT STAB TE....THE PLANS AREN'T THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL NOBLER..IM USING BRODAK HINGES.   ROUNDED LE AND TE DONT ALLOW FULL MOVEMENT UNLESS THERE IS A FAIRLY BIG GAP, MINE HAS ALMOST NO GAP THE WAY I HINGED IT.THE BRODAK KIT IS THE 52 NOBLER BUT THE PLANS ARE DIFFERENT,THE 57 NOBLER HAS A THICKER AIRFOIL
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2023, 03:21:24 PM »
I guess that explains it.  I thought I had seen all of the original and all of the Gieseke variants that Bob and his friends flew and I don't recall ever seeing one with a flat Stab TE.  Guess I was wrong, I missed that one.  Does it also have the flat stab and round LE or is it airfoiled?

Ken

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 07:58:10 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline doug coursey

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2023, 04:57:48 PM »
I guess that explains it.  I thought I had seen all of the original and all of the Gieseke variants that Bob and his friends flew and I don't recall ever seeing one with a flat Stab TE.  Guess I was wrong, I missed that one.  Does it also have the flat stab and round LE or is it airfoiled?

Ken
the stab and elevator are airfoiled,i thnk the original noblers were also airfoiled
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Offline doug coursey

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2023, 03:19:10 AM »
I watched windys video of him building the 57 nobler using the plans and copying the parts from and original kit and had the airfoiled stab and elevator.he built it as it would have been built back in the day,he only changed and added a tip weight box and adjustable leadouts,he also built equal panel wings and used nylon hinges instead of cloth...I think back in the 50's we rounded the edges and used cloth hinges angled edges came much later
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Offline doug coursey

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Re: elevator leading edge higher than stab trailing edge
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2023, 09:25:54 AM »
WORKED OUT MY PROBLEM.....I DEFLECTED THE ELE TO TOUCH THE EDGE OF THE STAB TRAILING EDGE AND MARKED A LINE ACROSS THE ELE LEADING EDGE...I THEN SANDED THE LEADING EDGE TO THIS LINE AND SINCE THE ELE IS TAPERED IT LINES UP PERFECT WITH THE STAB TRAILING EDGE AT FULL DEFLECTION......THE ELE LEADING EDGE IS IS A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE STAB TRAILING EDGE BECAUSE OF THE TAPER IN THE ELE WITH THE 45 DEGREE TAPER ON THE ELE LEADING EDGE....WORKED OUT PERFECT
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