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Author Topic: Cutting out wing ribs  (Read 2108 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Cutting out wing ribs
« on: June 02, 2010, 05:23:27 PM »
I don't know the "right" way to do this, so here's my wrong way:

I'm building a model whose wing has a straight chord on the unflapped section.  I'm planning on building it on a jig (as much to learn how to build on a jig as anything else), so each rib needs holes precisely placed for the jig rods.

So I've cut out 20 rib blanks, about 3/32" oversize all the way around.  I'm going to take these blanks and put them on my x-y table on my drill press, and stack-drill the holes.  They should be precisely located because I'm using the x-y table, assuming that the bit doesn't wander.

I've made a template, that has stubs of the rods that I'm going to use glued into it, in the holes that I drilled on that same x-y table.  So I should be able to just slap the template onto each blank, with the rod stubs in the holes, and carve out a nice accurate rib.

Up to this point I don't know how many sins I've committed, or am planning to.  The one thing that I know I've done that's not entirely kosher is that the ribs are cut on about a 5 degree angle from the grain of the wood, because I could fit a whole lot more of them on the sheet that way -- time, and my first few crashes, will tell if that was a clever economy or dumb cheapness.

Now that I'm committed -- how do you cut out ribs when you're jigging the wing, and you need those oh-so-precise holes because that's what maintains the quality of the wing?
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2010, 05:52:08 PM »
You need to make a rib template with pins that register in the jig holes.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2010, 06:09:17 PM »
Yes, that's what I have ("stubs of the rods" -- probably not the right way to put it).
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Offline Leester

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 07:09:25 PM »
Don't be cheap with the wood, make your ribs with the center line parallel with the wood grain. Making them angeled will increase the chances of a warped wing. I cut my jig holes with sharpened brass tubing of the intended size, sharpen as needed for a real neat job.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 08:10:56 PM »
Don't be cheap with the wood, make your ribs with the center line parallel with the wood grain. Making them angeled will increase the chances of a warped wing. I cut my jig holes with sharpened brass tubing of the intended size, sharpen as needed for a real neat job.
To late!  The chances that the wing will warp before I crash the plane are low, anyway.

I'll do it right next time.  In the mean time I'll take an old Oregon carpenter's trick, and alternate the slant of the grain.

I took a regular twist drill and ground a V into the end, so it kind of acts like a Forstner bit without the pin in the middle.  It ejects chips better than a sharpened brass tube (although you still need to work it to keep the chips out).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 08:31:11 AM »
If you have a constant chord wing lay out, it is simple.  Make two templates that are identical with the jig holes in the proper place.  Rough cut the blanks(with jig holes)  and sandwich between the templates(correct number of ribs or a couple of extras).  Get correct size bolts long enough to go thru the stack.  Tighten down and start sanding.  Don't cut the spar notches into the templates.  I have a tool to make spar notches.  Another thing people miss is having the jig holes where the leadouts are going to be.  Even tapered wings can be done my way(well actually the idea stolen from someone else).  Jigs make for straight wings. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 09:37:31 AM »
I considered stack cutting, but with the lightening holes I didn't see much benefit.  I should learn how to cut lightening holes in a rib stack.

Cutting out ribs is satisfying, though.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 10:14:10 AM »
The lightening holes I cut last.  Not that hard with a Dremel tool.  I have even cut leadout holes last a couple of times when the wing was framed up and solid enough to move about. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 10:46:43 AM »
The lightening holes I cut last.  Not that hard with a Dremel tool.
A good sharp Forstner bit will cut a clean hole in balsa.  I was considering cutting the lightening/leadout holes with that, which would certainly make the whole job easier.

But cutting ribs one by one is good therapy, even if it slows the build down.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 01:34:45 PM »
Someone emailed me a comment on this thread, because he was under the impression that I was rejecting all advice, and using my use of a twist drill as an example.

Well he was partially right -- these ribs are for a plane that, because of my level of flying skill, probably isn't going to have a long life.  So I'm not going to throw away a bunch of already-made rib blanks if they'll be "good enough" for my purposes.  But the reason I asked was so that when I build the next plane (which will hopefully have a longer life) I'll know more -- and I am listening, and appreciating -- the feedback.

He also criticized my use of a twist drill -- this is because I apparently did not communicate the fact that it isn't a twist drill any more, or at least not one designed for metal.  The drill did, indeed, start out life as a twist drill, made in a twist drill factory for the purpose of making 9/32" diameter holes in metal and plastic and other suitable materials.  But one day, while it was sitting in my drill index savoring the taste of the last bit of 6061 that it had gone through and joshing with its buddies about what it might be like to drill titanium or Rulon or some other exotic material, it was unceremoniously plucked from its warm, comfortable home and its tip was rudely ground into a completely different shape.  In fact, what it is now is closest to a rather substandard Forstner bit, although given its size and price I'm not complaining.

A twist drill is designed to cut on the end of the drill, along as much of the face of the drill that can be managed.  The very center of a twist drill (where the two faces come to an oblique point) can't do much more than mash material out of the way.  But the ends of the flutes of a properly-sharpened twist drill make little chisels that cut strips of material away from the parent body.  In most twist drills the flutes are twisted, which helps them to eject the shavings.  This process works great in steel, aluminum, plastic, and similar uniform materials. 

But (as my respondent correctly pointed out) wood -- and balsa wood in particular -- has entirely the wrong mechanical characteristics to work correctly with a twist drill.  The materials that twist drills work well in are isotropic -- that is, no matter which way you slice them, they act the same.  Wood is not isotropic.  Wood has fibers that have great strength along their length, but which are not terribly well attached to each other.  Attack a piece of wood with a twist drill, and instead of making a nice clean cut you end up crushing fibers with the tip, and ripping them out of the sides of the hole when the chisel end of the bit catches on.

I've posted a picture of the bit.  If you look at drill bits that work well in wood you'll see that they all have some sort of knife blade (or pair thereof) around the edge of the bit.  If you ignore the tit in the middle of the bit that's there to keep things centered, the very first interaction that the drill has with the wood is to cleanly scribe a groove down into the very outside diameter of the hole.  After that, most bits are designed to chisel out pieces of wood and to (hopefully) eject them one way or another.  If you look at the poor abomination that I made out of what was once a perfectly useful twist drill you'll see that I've cut the thing so that the first thing that meets wood is the outside diameter of the drill.  If the picture were better you'd see that the ends of the 'knife' are angled so that it cuts cleanly into the wood.

I've posed the bit with a regular twist drill, and with the hole made by my modified bit.  If you're careful about how you operate the thing, it makes really clean holes.  I haven't been able to come close to that level of quality with a bit of sharpened brass tubing, and I suspect that if I could it wouldn't stay sharp for nearly as long as this thing will.  In addition, this drill bit makes chips that can be ejected (with work) -- a sharpened bit of brass tubing (at least done the way I know how to do) is essentially a hole saw, and always fills up with little disks of wood that must be pried out periodically.

The downsides to the bit at this moment is that it doesn't really eject chips well, and it isn't self centering at all.  It does the 'cut around the edge' perfectly, and the top hole in a stack of ribs is always as sweet as could be.  But to eject the chips you have to peck at the wood very carefully, feeling for when the bit starts to load up, and then hope that you get some chips to come up with the bit.  While that particular hole is a very good example of the breed, there are some that aren't as pretty -- but all of them make a very snug but not too tight fit to my 9/32" jig rods, so I'm not complaining!  In addition to the chip ejection problem, the lack of a center 'tit' means that the only place that you can use this drill bit is in a drill press -- it will actively wander out of place if it's not held rigidly and fed slowly.

Other than that, it's a nice bit, far from being a regular twist drill that would make a disastrous mess of the balsa that you try to drill with it, and more than useful enough for the job I'm asking it to do now (although I did think I heard some gentle sobbing when I set it down next to a block of virgin aluminum, a bit earlier).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 02:18:21 PM »
Someone emailed me a comment on this thread, because he was under the impression that I was rejecting all advice, and using my use of a twist drill as an example. . . .

 . . .


Very interesting, readable, and understandable explanation. Reminds me somewhat of drilling holes in paper stacks -- lots of the same problems, wood being "grainer" than paper, for sure.

Thanks  H^^  Good general knowledge, even if not needed specifically for the application you have here. Thank your e-mail critic for prodding you to explain it all.

      Larry Fulwider

Offline TDM

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2010, 06:23:02 AM »
The correct way according to Traian.

You first make the templates of the ribs then you stack the set of ribs between them you place the stack of templates in the vise and file till you touch the templates.

This is how I make the templates.
Use a copy machine or cut the plans and place the template on the top of the plywood 1/8 or 1/16 Aluminum. Aluminum is better. Use a saw to ruff cut the shape and decide where you want to put the rod holes on the small rib assuming that you have a tapered wing. The farthest the holes are apart the better. You can use any drills for this. I recommend you use 3/8 holes for 3/8 rods. If you can go and use 1/2 rods is even better. If you have a taper wing make 2 root templates and 2 tip templates. Now that you have the holes position on the tip template place the holes with the same spacing on the root template. Also my personal preference is to align the root and tip so that the spar is in line. It gives a easier sand for the spar. Tip use the tip template as a jig to drill the holes on the root rib.
Now the easy part shaping the profile of the template. If you have a disk sander you are home free. Stack the two ribs on top of each other using a couple of dowel in the holes you just drill. Now sand on side till you touch the line on the drawing. Do not worry yet about the other side. What I do next I black out with a marker the side that was just sanded. Then I flip the templates over. You follow my thought here. We are shooting for symmetry around the holes here. Next you sand the other sides until you touch the black marker. This way you have a pair of symmetric templates and a back up to use just in case.
Now back to the ribs. Use the large template and a brass tubing in the drill. Sharpen the brass from the inside out with a Dremel tool. Put the template on the piece of balsa drill the holes then trace the outside with a pencil. Cut them with an Exacto knife oversize.
Stack the ribs between the templates on rods in the vise. Ruff them with you r weapon of choice I use on of those  http://www.mcmaster.com/#hand-files/=7duwdl files. They work great for ruff and finish. Be careful when you get to size. Black out the templates so you know when you touch them.
That is it. You are ready to make a wing now.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Cutting out wing ribs
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2010, 08:13:25 AM »
Tim, I have gotten blisters from using the brass tube method and like you state, it needs sharpening often.  But, as you also state cutting ribs is good therapy.  Years ago there was an article for making a die cutter for ribs.  I was working at a paper plant at the time and made one.  After a few ribs still had to use X-Acto knfe.  You need to see Bob Hunt's video on lost foam wings.  The foam is the pattern for the ribs.  The cradle the foam wing came out of is the jig for building.  He makes it look easy. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

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