News:



  • July 01, 2025, 09:49:41 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Control throw measurement.  (Read 425 times)

Offline Perry Rose

  • Go vote, it's so easy dead people do it all the time.
  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1789
Control throw measurement.
« on: June 25, 2025, 08:44:55 AM »
How do most measure the deflection of the flaps and elevator? I imagine using a protractor of some sort. Do you pull the leadouts as far as they will go and use that measurement? I see a problem doing that.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7076
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2025, 02:15:29 PM »
How do most measure the deflection of the flaps and elevator? I imagine using a protractor of some sort. Do you pull the leadouts as far as they will go and use that measurement? I see a problem doing that.
I have a set of protractors that slip into the flap/elevator gaps to the fuselage.  I do pull the leadouts as far as they go because I use stops that only lets me have 60 degrees of ballcrank movement both ways.  I have settled on 1 1/2" of leadout movement from center to full up/down(I actually use about an inch) and that matches how I fly.  I try and keep all of my planes the same.  So, with the bellcrank centered (on the leadout position) and flaps and elevator at zero I move each line and mess with all of the control settings until I get equal movement giving me equal deflection.  For a new plane, I do this with the controls out of the plane and mounted on a frame that puts them exactly where they will be in the plane.  I use a fake balsa bellcrank so that I can move the pivots and pushrod holes before I drill the real one. (the pix has the actual).  Everybody has their own way of getting there, all that matters is that you get there!

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12904
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2025, 04:56:51 PM »
Mark 1 calibrated eyeball. If I see 45° deflection, then I'm not worried at all. If I see 30° then it's probably going to be okay. I don't get too het up about flap to elevator ratio because I always make that adjustable anyway, and after I trim the plane it'll be what it is.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2111
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2025, 11:14:04 PM »
If you want an actual number and don't have a protractor, you can use a smart phone if you have one. On the iphone it is under Utilities/Measure and toggle to the bubble level. It works fine and is probably accurate to about 1 degree. Just set the plane up level on your bench using the edge of the phone. Then deflect your controls and measure each surface. If the surfaces have taper (chordwise) then take that into account. Yes, I deflect the surfaces all the way using the leadouts. The way you set up your handle, you may not actually achieve that angle--but that angle is available. Once the plane is built (bellcrank inaccessible) the control ratio to the bellcrank is only adjusted at the handle. Of course, you can change flap deflection by speeding up or slowing down the flap individually if you move positions of the input pushrod to the flaps at the flap horn. Etc., etc., etc.

On some planes and with some paint trim schemes the angles by eyeball can be misleading. And what one person "sees" as 30 degrees can be quite different from someone else's estimate. The protractor/angle-ometer takes away that guesstimation error.

Easy to do; a bit harder to figure out what might need to be done to the plane once you have results. Of course, a huge bias of Up vs. Down and some issues at the handle might be the reason I would start looking at surface deflection. I set it up even when I build, but I end of rebuilding lots of OPPs (Other People's Planes) so......

Offline Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3690
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2025, 06:56:28 PM »
Measuring full travel can be deceptive if the bellcrank goes farther in one direction than the other. If you adjust your pushrod so the flaps travel to the same angle at full lock, the bellcrank might not be centered at neutral. This is less than ideal because the Ackerman effect will be different for up and down. Ever wonder why you cut your outsides short on the horizontal eight? Could be the Ackerman (bellcrank throw to far aft at neutral).

With a 4" bellcrank and 4" handle you want a ratio of 11:20 for smaller planes so, 11/16" bellcrank throw with a 1-1/4" flap horn. For full size planes 12:20 .900" bellcrank throw with 1.500" flap horn. These are my numbers from building with the two different Tom Morris control horn systems.

When I build this way I just have to make sure the bellcrank is centered when the flaps are centered and I'll have the right flipper travel to lead out travel ratio without measuring. Tom figured all this out for us.

MM :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2025, 07:22:10 PM by Motorman »
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline M Spencer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 5245
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2025, 08:11:54 PM »
You hang it from a nail in the rafter , and pull down.
If your lucky the wingtip lands on your bare toe , when the nail pulls out .

A piece of paper or cardboard , cut , and taped ( drag a finger across to de stickyfy mega sticky tape - so it dosnt ruin the paint )
thrown thru the end , maybe with a notch for the wire & neutral line pre drawn , pencil full deflection marks on it ,
the get a protractor , pull out the stencil & measure on the bench .AND youve got a record .

Just folding a corner ( 90 deg. 0 of paper gets you 45 deg , for a rough ' exact ' check .

Depends if the last bit ( off travel ) is gooey . As in , if youhang it on one leadout - is it ' at the stop ' or does the pulling on it ( Ahem ! )
get more ' shift ' off the flaps , etc .
CAREFULL .
Er .

Theres anther thought , having overmuch movement - free - and setting handle radtio for useable movement , if you loose it & gotta run ,
whacking the handle flat , can get a ' stall turn ' ' avoidance ' out off it . Whaking back the handle hard, when its freeflighting downhill at
four foot , can pull a lot off the inertia / speed out of it . Extreme measures for extreme conditions , or loose units .

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14491
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 02:25:21 PM »
Measuring full travel can be deceptive if the bellcrank goes farther in one direction than the other.

   Exactly! Full travel means more-or-less nothing, as long as it is sufficient. What matters is the relative rate of each surface WRT the other (e.g. the flap moves 21 degrees down  and the elevator went 24 degrees up), and the absolute rate WRT the leadout movement (e.g. the flap went 21 degrees with 2" of leadout movement). You want to measure at a variety of up or down leadout movements and make sure the rate of movement is the same both ways, the rate of flap to elevator movement is the same both ways, and the flap to elevator ratio is what you expected

          Brett

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7975
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #7 on: Today at 12:02:32 AM »
You want to measure at a variety of up or down leadout movements and make sure the rate of movement is the same both ways, the rate of flap to elevator movement is the same both ways, and the flap to elevator ratio is what you expected

That’s one way to go about it.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7076
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:16:14 AM »
I may have to go to the dog house after this but I am bothered that we appear to be applying a symmetrical solution to an asymmetrical problem again.  What we are after is a plane that turns at the same rate inside and out.  Even an inline will have some preference in how it turns inside vs outside from nothing more than it's design.  Even planes of the same design differ.  The most effective trim is the angle of the bellcrank to the fuselage centerline.  It is the only change inside the plane that will result in uneven movement of the control surfaces from even inputs from the handle.  It is also the one element of the controls that we have to preset using our current designs.  The last three planes I have built have Mark Wood's flap control box which allows you to easily change the flap pushrod length.  On the last one, the inline twin, I discovered quite by accident how effective that change was in evening turn rates.  In my opinion if you really want equal handle movement to produce equal turn rates you have to consider the plane's natural tendencies and bellcrank/fuselage angle.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7975
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #9 on: Today at 12:28:41 PM »
Charles Carter likes having an adjustable link between the bellcrank and flap control horn.

If you have an aerodynamic asymmetry, you would offset it by a control asymmetry. Conversely, if the airplane and the rest of the controls are symmetric, you would adjust the bellcrank-flap pushrod length to get a straight-line relationship between leadout movement and control deflection. Alas, this adjustment alone may be insufficient.

I would go the other way and start with control system kinematics that give the straight-line relationship, then make elevator pushrod length and aerodynamic adjustments to get the response symmetric.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7076
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #10 on: Today at 02:06:50 PM »
...you would adjust the bellcrank-flap pushrod length to get a straight-line relationship between leadout movement and control deflection.
Not quite although we may be saying the same thing differently.  I am not interested in the amount of control deflection only in the rate of turn and the presentation of the turn.  My goal is to get it to turn the same amount and same way both directions for a given input.  Adjusting the elevator changes the flap/elevator relationship and can cause the plane's AOA to differ between upright and inverted.  I am probably in the minority, but it bothers me to have a plane flying noticeably tail low in level flight either direction.  It is not a deduction and probably doesn't matter much.  Most of this, and the final tweaks, can be accomplished at the handle level but that is the last place I want to make changes other than the spacing to even things out between planes.   Addition of the canard on my Endgame design has heightened my awareness of differential movement.  It is very effective in guiding the nose throughout the flight (like a horozontal nose rudder).  If it is not absolutely aligned with the wing it creates a strong difference in how it turns.  Aligned properly, it's rate of turn relative to the flaps rate adds a very simple tool in leveling the plane.   Having said all of that, we are still back to the fact that it really doesn't matter much how we get there, only that we do.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14491
Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #11 on: Today at 09:48:02 PM »
That’s one way to go about it.

   How to measure it, and what you want it to measure, are two different things, of course. My *intent* is to get the control rates as even as possible in either direction to start with, and if that consistently needs some other adjustment (like dropped elevator), then try to remove that by aerodynamic adjustments (like positive incidence).

    There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, this is just my way.

     Brett

Tags: