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Author Topic: Control throw measurement.  (Read 377 times)

Online Perry Rose

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Control throw measurement.
« on: June 25, 2025, 08:44:55 AM »
How do most measure the deflection of the flaps and elevator? I imagine using a protractor of some sort. Do you pull the leadouts as far as they will go and use that measurement? I see a problem doing that.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2025, 02:15:29 PM »
How do most measure the deflection of the flaps and elevator? I imagine using a protractor of some sort. Do you pull the leadouts as far as they will go and use that measurement? I see a problem doing that.
I have a set of protractors that slip into the flap/elevator gaps to the fuselage.  I do pull the leadouts as far as they go because I use stops that only lets me have 60 degrees of ballcrank movement both ways.  I have settled on 1 1/2" of leadout movement from center to full up/down(I actually use about an inch) and that matches how I fly.  I try and keep all of my planes the same.  So, with the bellcrank centered (on the leadout position) and flaps and elevator at zero I move each line and mess with all of the control settings until I get equal movement giving me equal deflection.  For a new plane, I do this with the controls out of the plane and mounted on a frame that puts them exactly where they will be in the plane.  I use a fake balsa bellcrank so that I can move the pivots and pushrod holes before I drill the real one. (the pix has the actual).  Everybody has their own way of getting there, all that matters is that you get there!

Ken
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2025, 04:56:51 PM »
Mark 1 calibrated eyeball. If I see 45° deflection, then I'm not worried at all. If I see 30° then it's probably going to be okay. I don't get too het up about flap to elevator ratio because I always make that adjustable anyway, and after I trim the plane it'll be what it is.
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2025, 11:14:04 PM »
If you want an actual number and don't have a protractor, you can use a smart phone if you have one. On the iphone it is under Utilities/Measure and toggle to the bubble level. It works fine and is probably accurate to about 1 degree. Just set the plane up level on your bench using the edge of the phone. Then deflect your controls and measure each surface. If the surfaces have taper (chordwise) then take that into account. Yes, I deflect the surfaces all the way using the leadouts. The way you set up your handle, you may not actually achieve that angle--but that angle is available. Once the plane is built (bellcrank inaccessible) the control ratio to the bellcrank is only adjusted at the handle. Of course, you can change flap deflection by speeding up or slowing down the flap individually if you move positions of the input pushrod to the flaps at the flap horn. Etc., etc., etc.

On some planes and with some paint trim schemes the angles by eyeball can be misleading. And what one person "sees" as 30 degrees can be quite different from someone else's estimate. The protractor/angle-ometer takes away that guesstimation error.

Easy to do; a bit harder to figure out what might need to be done to the plane once you have results. Of course, a huge bias of Up vs. Down and some issues at the handle might be the reason I would start looking at surface deflection. I set it up even when I build, but I end of rebuilding lots of OPPs (Other People's Planes) so......

Offline Motorman

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2025, 06:56:28 PM »
Measuring full travel can be deceptive if the bellcrank goes farther in one direction than the other. If you adjust your pushrod so the flaps travel to the same angle at full lock, the bellcrank might not be centered at neutral. This is less than ideal because the Ackerman effect will be different for up and down. Ever wonder why you cut your outsides short on the horizontal eight? Could be the Ackerman (bellcrank throw to far aft at neutral).

With a 4" bellcrank and 4" handle you want a ratio of 11:20 for smaller planes so, 11/16" bellcrank throw with a 1-1/4" flap horn. For full size planes 12:20 .900" bellcrank throw with 1.500" flap horn. These are my numbers from building with the two different Tom Morris control horn systems.

When I build this way I just have to make sure the bellcrank is centered when the flaps are centered and I'll have the right flipper travel to lead out travel ratio without measuring. Tom figured all this out for us.

MM :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2025, 07:22:10 PM by Motorman »
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2025, 08:11:54 PM »
You hang it from a nail in the rafter , and pull down.
If your lucky the wingtip lands on your bare toe , when the nail pulls out .

A piece of paper or cardboard , cut , and taped ( drag a finger across to de stickyfy mega sticky tape - so it dosnt ruin the paint )
thrown thru the end , maybe with a notch for the wire & neutral line pre drawn , pencil full deflection marks on it ,
the get a protractor , pull out the stencil & measure on the bench .AND youve got a record .

Just folding a corner ( 90 deg. 0 of paper gets you 45 deg , for a rough ' exact ' check .

Depends if the last bit ( off travel ) is gooey . As in , if youhang it on one leadout - is it ' at the stop ' or does the pulling on it ( Ahem ! )
get more ' shift ' off the flaps , etc .
CAREFULL .
Er .

Theres anther thought , having overmuch movement - free - and setting handle radtio for useable movement , if you loose it & gotta run ,
whacking the handle flat , can get a ' stall turn ' ' avoidance ' out off it . Whaking back the handle hard, when its freeflighting downhill at
four foot , can pull a lot off the inertia / speed out of it . Extreme measures for extreme conditions , or loose units .

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 02:25:21 PM »
Measuring full travel can be deceptive if the bellcrank goes farther in one direction than the other.

   Exactly! Full travel means more-or-less nothing, as long as it is sufficient. What matters is the relative rate of each surface WRT the other (e.g. the flap moves 21 degrees down  and the elevator went 24 degrees up), and the absolute rate WRT the leadout movement (e.g. the flap went 21 degrees with 2" of leadout movement). You want to measure at a variety of up or down leadout movements and make sure the rate of movement is the same both ways, the rate of flap to elevator movement is the same both ways, and the flap to elevator ratio is what you expected

          Brett

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #7 on: Today at 12:02:32 AM »
You want to measure at a variety of up or down leadout movements and make sure the rate of movement is the same both ways, the rate of flap to elevator movement is the same both ways, and the flap to elevator ratio is what you expected

That’s one way to go about it.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Control throw measurement.
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:16:14 AM »
I may have to go to the dog house after this but I am bothered that we appear to be applying a symmetrical solution to an asymmetrical problem again.  What we are after is a plane that turns at the same rate inside and out.  Even an inline will have some preference in how it turns inside vs outside from nothing more than it's design.  Even planes of the same design differ.  The most effective trim is the angle of the bellcrank to the fuselage centerline.  It is the only change inside the plane that will result in uneven movement of the control surfaces from even inputs from the handle.  It is also the one element of the controls that we have to preset using our current designs.  The last three planes I have built have Mark Wood's flap control box which allows you to easily change the flap pushrod length.  On the last one, the inline twin, I discovered quite by accident how effective that change was in evening turn rates.  In my opinion if you really want equal handle movement to produce equal turn rates you have to consider the plane's natural tendencies and bellcrank/fuselage angle.

Ken
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