Author Topic: Brodak butyrate over Sig nitrate ? (Read 3001 times)

Rob Killick · « **on:** February 10, 2008, 04:35:06 PM »

Hi ,

I'm sure that this has been asked before , but can I safely use Brodak butyrate , over Sig nitrate ?
I understand there are differences in the two dope brands , so I'm going to ask before I continue doping .
I've run out of Sig butyrate and it's at least a week away from delivery .

Thanks

Keith Polzin · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2008, 05:04:55 PM »

Try a test piece on some cardboard.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2008, 08:46:36 PM »

Not a definitive answer but...I have used Brodak over Sig and vice versa on three airplanes without any ill effects. I have only used Sig thinner w/Sig dope, the same for Brodak. One thing I have noticed though is if you using water slide decals, put a couple of light coats of Sig Lite Coat on first. Brodak dope/thinner softens and often melts decals. HOWEVER, many will say don't mix brands soo....proceed w/ caution if you do. $:-\$

joe renfro · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2008, 09:18:13 PM »

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...My experience in Dinosaur Days was that you could safely use Butyl over Nitrate, but
Not the Nitrate over Butyl without bad results....

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #4 on:** February 10, 2008, 09:52:37 PM »

Oops - I guess I got a little side tracked. I was referring to Sig Buterate over Brodak Buterate or vice-versa. Common wisdom still applies regarding nitrate for a base, buterate on top - not the other way around. HOWEVER (here we go again) some will maintain that eventually fuel will get through the buterate (I know it's not spelled correctly) and soften up the nitrate leading to adhesion problems. For that reason some people choose to go with w/buterate all the way. It's just one of those things where you pays your money and takes your choice... Personally I wouldn't have a problem with putting Brodak buterate over Sig Nitrate, but thats just me. If in doubt - test sample.

Leester · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2008, 03:15:40 AM »

Rob: They say don't mix different brands because of the different thinners. Since I doubt you have flying weather up in the " Frozen Tundra " I doubt waiting for the Sig is going to be more than just an inconvenience. Anyway that'll give you time for your Honeydooos

Bob Zambelli · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2008, 05:16:26 AM »

Regarding use of Brodak dopes, I would contact Windy for definitive answers.

He worked very closely with John on the development of the products.

Bob Z.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2008, 09:45:43 AM »

Quote from: Bob Zambelli on February 11, 2008, 05:16:26 AM

Regarding use of Brodak dopes, I would contact Windy for definitive answers.

He worked very closely with John on the development of the products.

Bob Z.

What better source than the guy that has more prop trophys from the NATS than anyone else..

Leester · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2008, 11:41:20 AM »

In every tape of his I've seen he says don't mix brands.

Rob Killick · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2008, 03:36:57 PM »

Hi ,

Thanks fellows !
Leester is right ...
With minus 43 degree C temps , there is not a bit of flying going on !
I'll be ordering more Sig Butyrate , promptly .

Bill Little · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2008, 08:33:15 AM »

Yep, Windy says don't mix brands .......... now...........

His Candy Apple Red Cardinal *20 Pointer* (he repainted it Kawasawki Green AFTER he won the 20 points!) was painted with a mix of Sig Supercoat and Sig Lite Coat butyrates for the substrate, Sig Silver butyrate for the blocking coats, and acrylic auto lacquer for color, and Sig Lite Coat again for the clear top coats. But, he WAS using Dupont 3608S thinner in EVERYTHING. So........

By the way, I only use Sig or Randolph Nitrate for substrates and use whatever I have on hand over it. Butyrate dopes, acrylic lacquers and base/coat clear coat systems. My two problems were caused by switching thinners for the clear coats on one plane and using way too much retarder on another. YMMV......

Rob Killick · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2008, 06:10:52 PM »

Hi ,

Just a word about Dupont 3608S ...

I contacted several autobody and paint supply shops and according to all the people I spoke to , they all say Dupont discontinued the 3608S thinner , due to the fact that the auto paintindustry has gone to urethane based paint and that the 3608S is an acrylic lacquer thinner .
Any other ideas instead of the 3608S ?

Thanks ,

Rob K.

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2008, 07:40:45 AM »

Quote from: Rob Killick on February 19, 2008, 06:10:52 PM

Hi ,

Just a word about Dupont 3608S ...

I contacted several autobody and paint supply shops and according to all the people I spoke to , they all say Dupont discontinued the 3608S thinner , due to the fact that the auto paintindustry has gone to urethane based paint and that the 3608S is an acrylic lacquer thinner .
Any other ideas instead of the 3608S ?

Thanks ,

Rob K.

Hi Rob,

I have no clue, I have not encountered that problem. Urethanes have taken over the majority of the industry, that is true, but Acrylic Lacquer is not *gone*, it is still being made and can be purchased in several areas. California, Washington State, etc., being banned areas for sure. The paint costs about 400% more, really ($35-$40 a gal., for mixing white, versus $150 a gal. now), but it is there if you live in the right place. I got two gallons of 3608S a couple months back.

Talking to a PPG rep a short time ago, they said they had no real plans to discontinue A/L anytime soon.

Bill Little · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2008, 11:03:43 AM »

Ty,

I am having a brain phart......

All my mind can come up with for TCP is some "tri______phosphate"...... I KNOW that is wrong!! LOL!!!!!!!

And, you don't have to be top 20 in ANYTHING to know if you can paint in a certain way, so don't apologize.

Ray · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2008, 01:10:55 PM »

1, 2, 3 Trichloropropane:

http://tosc.oregonstate.edu/about/news/newsletters/TCP%20FACT%20SHEET_FINAL.pdf

P.S. Not quite on-topic, sorry about that. In the past, I have seen Oil of Wintergreen used to somewhat mitigate against the strong odor of dope, with no known effect on the finish.

kenneth cook · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2008, 01:52:33 PM »

I painted my Brodak Oriental with Brodak butyrate over Sig nitrate with great success. I built this 2 years ago and its still looking great. This was one of the first paint jobs I rubbed out. I used the Piper metallic green over a white base. I know its been said not to mix brands but I have a better success rate spraying Sig products. More than likely its due to climate conditions. I've had blushing problems occur with the Brodak. I've used Brodak retarder when this has happened, but I prefer to wait for better days so I don't need it. Brodak was out of their nitrate thinner at the time so I elected to use Sig's nitrate. Typically I use butyrate from the start but I used a synthetic covering which required the use of nitrate for the base coats followed by butyrate. I had no problems with trim taping, drying, crazing etc. One thing that I did discover is not to use Sig retarder in Brodak clear. I didn't use much but it caused problems on the test panel I did. Everyone seems to share different views and opinions on this subject. I can say it worked for me. In my quest to find which paints work over what base coats, it always seems that the majority of products go over nitrate with no compatibility problems. They never seem to name or question any of the brands of nitrate their using. Just for the record I do try and use same type brands. Ken Cook

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #16 on:** February 20, 2008, 01:59:42 PM »

Quote from: Rob Killick on February 19, 2008, 06:10:52 PM

Hi ,

Just a word about Dupont 3608S ...

I contacted several autobody and paint supply shops and according to all the people I spoke to , they all say Dupont discontinued the 3608S thinner , due to the fact that the auto paintindustry has gone to urethane based paint and that the 3608S is an acrylic lacquer thinner .
Any other ideas instead of the 3608S ?

Thanks ,

Rob K.

Here in Iowa, I called my supplier and he said it was still available and they usually place an order every week. Hmmm.......

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2008, 02:30:30 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on February 20, 2008, 07:40:45 AM

Hi Rob,

I have no clue, I have not encountered that problem. Urethanes have taken over the majority of the industry, that is true, but Acrylic Lacquer is not *gone*, it is still being made and can be purchased in several areas. California, Washington State, etc., being banned areas for sure. The paint costs about 400% more, really ($35-$40 a gal., for mixing white, versus $150 a gal. now), but it is there if you live in the right place. I got two gallons of 3608S a couple months back.

Talking to a PPG rep a short time ago, they said they had no real plans to discontinue A/L anytime soon.

Yup. I'm in CA and I CANNOT buy Dupont 36083 thinner anymore. The local auto paint supply house does have some other thinner to replace it, but It's some off brand from Grow Automotive. I use it to clean brushes.

Rob Killick · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »

Hi ,

Okay , here I go again ...

I live in Canada . To obtain some of the "specialized stuff " (especially from the U.S.A.) can be a major pain and expense .
Anyhow , I did find a place closer to home , that has a five gallon container of the 3606S thinner ($50.00 to ship) .
I'm guessing that as long as the container is sealed appropriately , that there should be no , or little evaporation .
I'm not sure about the shelve live of the 3608S , though .
Thanks for all the comments and all the help

Rob K.

Bill Little · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2008, 06:59:07 PM »

Hi Rob,

As far as shelf life for 3608S, unless it evaporates, I don't think I will have to worry about it in my lifetime.

Bill Little · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2008, 06:36:03 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on February 22, 2008, 11:46:55 PM

Hi Bill. If I remember correctly it is "Tri Cresyl Phosphate". (sp?) During the 50's it was used in Shell gasoline to bring the Octane RATING up without adding lead. We called it, Tom Cat @#$%. Being a smart ass teen, what else??

By Jove, I think he's got it!!!!!!!

That sure *sounds* like it, Ty! Thanks......... maybe senility hasn't fully set in with me!

gary tultz · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2008, 08:21:10 PM »

Thats right, TCP. Tricresyl Phosphate Its a plastisizer used in the early urethane industry.

Bill Little · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2008, 10:24:45 AM »

Quote

Everyone seems to share different views and opinions on this subject. I can say it worked for me. In my quest to find which paints work over what base coats, it always seems that the majority of products go over nitrate with no compatibility problems. They never seem to name or question any of the brands of nitrate their using. Just for the record I do try and use same type brands. Ken Cook

Hi Ken,

I agree, there are those that would argue with what *I* do in finishing, but I don't have problems unless I use a different thinner, or too much retarder.

I have a plane I still fly regularly, built in 1997. I used Randolph's non tautening tinted nitrate for all the substrate, Sig Supercoat Clear to shrink the open bays, Sig colors and PPG Acrylic Lacquer colors for trim, and Dupont Chroma Clear for the top coats. It got second in Concours (to Windy's Spitfire) at the Joe Ortiz Contest at Flushing Meadows. 11 years later, it shows the signs of repairs since I used the wrong color of red....... otherwise, it is as good as it was when new, and it has the most flights on it than any other plane I have ever had.

My point? Many more things work than most people realize, especially if you're a blind hog............ and some people can mess up a _____ dream........

billbyles · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2008, 03:20:39 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on February 20, 2008, 11:03:43 AM

Ty,

I am having a brain phart...... All my mind can come up with for TCP is some "tri______phosphate"...... I KNOW that is wrong!! LOL!!!!!!!

And, you don't have to be top 20 in ANYTHING to know if you can paint in a certain way, so don't apologize.

Bill,

TCP used as a plasticizer is TriCrescylPhosphate. I use it on rare occasions when doping full-scale airplanes.

Bill Byles

Will Hinton · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2008, 06:16:03 PM »

Just to put my penny's worth in - I opened a brand new can of 3608S three weeks ago. You can still buy it in Ohio and they have no plans to discontinue it here. CA has a lot more restrictions because of the EPA I suppose so that may explain the situation of not getting it there.
will