Author Topic: Bones Tuetonic (maybe) (Read 10524 times)

John Miller · « **on:** September 19, 2009, 05:32:22 PM »

Two weeks ago, I cut out the parts for my new twin engined stunter. It's what I call a Phantasy Scale Stunter. Imagine, if you will, the Germans needing a close air support/air superiority aircraft, esp. on the eastern front where they were being heavily schooled by the Russian tank bustinng Il-2 Stormovik, the first of it's kind, destroying German armor at will.

I imagined that the Nazis managed to steal some plans from the US, particularly for the Grumman F5U Skyrocket.

How would they have built something similar?

Here is my idea of what such a plane might look like. I call it Zweipanzerflug.

I might have been further along, but I had to build a second set of nacells as the first, original set were going to be too heavy. I redesigned them to use RC style motor mounts. Other changes as well, allowed me to save 6.5 oz's total for both nacells, with engines, tanks, props, and spinners. I hope this savings will allow me to come in at a good flying weight.

A few specs:

575 sq inches wing area.
44 oz's projected finished weight.
Power is a pair of Magnum .15XLS engines.
Props, 9X4 APC's

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2009, 05:53:41 PM »

And the pilot(s) sit where?

Jim

John Miller · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2009, 06:15:46 PM »

Why, in the painted on cockpit of course.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #3 on:** September 19, 2009, 08:28:47 PM »

John,

That's Awesome! I love it. And you're a faster builder than me.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2009, 06:08:12 AM »

John, that looks very cool, now how is the pilot going to see if you are going to "tint" the canopy a dark color?

john e. holliday · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2009, 08:07:55 AM »

Matt, come on now, you are not that isolated are you? I have cars pass me in which I wonder if someone is driving them because the tint is so dark. But, when you get in the car it is very easy to see out as long as all the windows are rolled up. Similar to the one two way mirrors, lights off in the one room the glass looks like a mirror in the lighted room. Soon as light is turned on in the dark room you can see both ways. DOC Holliday

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:30:19 AM »

... and to not forget the positively teutonic 37mm tank-buster cannon!

Matt Colan · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:47:21 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on September 20, 2009, 08:07:55 AM

Matt, come on now, you are not that isolated are you? I have cars pass me in which I wonder if someone is driving them because the tint is so dark. But, when you get in the car it is very easy to see out as long as all the windows are rolled up. Similar to the one two way mirrors, lights off in the one room the glass looks like a mirror in the lighted room. Soon as light is turned on in the dark room you can see both ways. DOC Holliday

No DOC, I'm not isolated, just poking fun at John. If it's a semi-scale or even fantasy scale, I think it should have a canopy, my opinion. John it's up to you what you want, it still looks good

John Miller · « **Reply #8 on:** September 20, 2009, 11:56:22 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on September 20, 2009, 11:47:21 AM

No DOC, I'm not isolated, just poking fun at John. If it's a semi-scale or even fantasy scale, I think it should have a canopy, my opinion. John it's up to you what you want, it still looks good

While I'm usually the first to insist on a real canopy, I'm cutting a few corners on this one. Mostly because I want to see extactly what my most minimum wing loading can be. After I've played with this one a bit, I'll build another, probably E-powered, with those retracts, and a nice cockpit detailing.

OR, I could say that the Nazis had been studying using sound and Radar for navigation, so no windows were needed. Yeah, that's it.

Dennis, "... and to not forget the positively teutonic 37mm tank-buster cannon!".

Funny you should mention this. I'm considering mounting at least one, and perhaps 4, 10 or 20mm. Firing from the planes centerline should make them very accurate, ehh?

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #9 on:** September 20, 2009, 12:06:13 PM »

Quote from: John Miller on September 20, 2009, 11:56:22 AM

Dennis, "... and to not forget the positively teutonic 37mm tank-buster cannon!".

Funny you should mention this. I'm considering mounting at least one, and perhaps 4, 10 or 20mm. Firing from the planes centerline should make them very accurate, ehh?

One really big cannon mounted low slung on centerline would look, uh, masculine!

John Miller · « **Reply #10 on:** September 20, 2009, 12:16:25 PM »

Hmmm, I see your point. Perhaps two?

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2009, 01:37:53 PM »

"One really big cannon mounted low slung on centerline would look, uh, masculine!

"

And with a large drum magazine mounted on each side of the cannon breech------

Jim

Randy Ryan · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2009, 05:20:49 PM »

Puts me in mind of the Gumman Skyrocket.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2009, 06:04:31 PM »

Groan,, this thread sure drifted,, sigh,, cannons ,, drum ammo feeders,, sigh

John, looks like a fun project go be sure,,
Next up,, a Blohm and Voss BV-161

?

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2009, 07:28:03 PM »

Mark,

Lighten up, let us have a little fun!!

Cheers,
Jim

Randy Powell · « **Reply #15 on:** September 21, 2009, 09:32:22 PM »

Jim,

No! This is like the NFL (No Fun League). Probably why I like college football though they are getting there.

don't pay any attention John. I think it's great and will be interesting as heck in the air.

John Miller · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2009, 08:20:04 AM »

Have fun guys, I can take it, I hope.....

I think it'll be a very different looking stunter. The numbers are good except for having to deal with a lower thrust line, but I think I've got it covered. Thanks to all for your comments, even if some are close to being X rated....

Yesterday, I got the Polyspan installed on the flying surfaces. Today, I intend to align, and install the fuse, stab, and nacells. This is about the most important part of building a twin. Alignment is critical to whether it flies like a dog, or brilliantly. Wish me luck.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2009, 11:46:00 AM »

OK I'll try to keep my commentary on the up&up.

* Randy is right college IS football, NFL is the no fun league (uh, how 'both dem Huskies

)

* John: looking over the plans, one unusual feature is the very low AR stab/elev. To be sure it will be helped out some by the end plates (dual fins) However, have you ever used anything like that before?

Today I got a PF for the purpose of making IT a twin... will post when there is something to say about it.

John Miller · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2009, 12:20:40 PM »

Great news Dennis, I take it you got the plans?

Yes, the AR of the stab and elevator is low. and I am depending on the twin rudders to increase the efficiency of the elevator. They both come to about 25% of the wing area.

It was Kieth Trostle who suggested the present AR a couple of years ago when I showed him an early set of plans. I personally have not used a low AR stab-elevator, so I'm going by gut feelings and suggestions by others.

I'll soon see if it will work or not.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2009, 06:04:56 PM »

John,

That is a great and unique project.

But..... "Why, in the painted on cockpit of course. ".. This is forboetten! Das pilot must see better... Ya?

I would think that a custom formed canopy would weigh less than a painted block.

I have just finished making a unique shaped plug for an OTS (Classified) airplane that I am building in honor of John Miske.The extra work is worth it.

I think that you have it covered well with the low AR stab/elevator. As with all new designs, you will probably make some changes on the 2nd one. But, probably a very few.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2009, 07:34:07 PM »

Jim,
my coment was tongue in cheek and in humor, not in anyway intended as a slam. I was only poking at John and others, sorry if it read wrong.

Hey John, I have a really awesome WW2 pilot figure,, hes even in German Garb,,,,,, hint hint,,,

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #21 on:** September 22, 2009, 07:44:36 PM »

"Hey John, I have a really awesome WW2 pilot figure,, hes even in German Garb,,,,,, hint hint,,,"

Ya Ya!

John Miller · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2009, 09:22:29 AM »

Even the best laid plans...... I started out with good intentions, even got the silkspan attached to the flaps and rudders. I took a break, and went to the local favorite B'fest and coffee shop just down the road.

Well, as luck would have it, One of my friends needed some painting done. So sense I needed the $, I went to work for the rest of the day.

Got home in pain due to a eruption of a tooth ache, so I took some pain killers, and laid down until the pain went away. Woke up at 2:30 this morning. Hmmmm, should I try to work on the plane? The pain came back after only 30 minutes, so more pain killer, and back to bed.

I've been thinking, when lucid, about a clear canopy, and cockpit detail. I really wanted to just paint on the canopy, save the weight, and time for this prototype. Marks implied offer of a fantastic WW2 German pilot, may put me over the line. It wouldn't be too hard to do, since I've come up with an idea that wouuld use much of the existing structure, and I coulod use flat sections of clear Butyrate glued into the framework.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:38:34 PM »

John,

Now your talking!

Randy Powell · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2009, 03:21:47 PM »

Hey John, I'm afraid your bones are Teutonic. Mine are Gallic.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2009, 04:42:38 PM »

John, I may even be coerced into painting the little dude for you.
your thoughts on the canopy are pretty much what I did on my bf 109, 1/8" balsa with 1/64 ply facings to form the canopy frame. Then flat stock glued onto it to form the canopy. It looks pretty good to me. Had I actually finished painting it, you may have seen it this year,, of course I didnt yet,, and besides you didnt come to any contests up here so it doesnt matter,,,,

Let me know man,, I will make him super special for ya!

John Miller · « **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2009, 04:56:21 PM »

Mark, you silver tongued devil. I had in mind the BF 109 canopy when I was working it out last night. Pain can cause some vivid hallucinations. OK, I'll do it.

I'm so breaking my own arm patting myself on the back. I covered the wing with polyspan, from tip to tip, including the Nobler style wing tips. They look good to this old buzzard. Who says you can't do wing tips with polyspan?

Tonight, I'll join the wing to the fuselage for sure. I hope to instal the elevator pushrod, and ths stab. I will probably have to set up the Nacells tomorrow. They really have to be dead on or I can have problems with tracking, so I need to measure three times, glue once.

Randy, my Gallic friend. My bones are so mixed up. I'm a true Hienz 57, a product of the melting pot that once was America. Though to be honest, with my Scot, Welsh, and Yorkshire ancestors, mixed up with my German, Austrian, Prussian, and Swiss ones, I'm about 50-50 Gallic and Tuetonic. A much nicer mix than my ex wife who was half Norwegian, half German...

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2009, 05:40:21 PM »

Mark,

No problem at all---------we're just having fun while we can!!

Feel the love!!

Jim

Randy Powell · « **Reply #28 on:** September 24, 2009, 12:50:13 PM »

John,

At least all yours come from the same region of the world. How about Welsh/Scottish/Apache/Cherokee in pretty much equal portions with a light sprinkle of German. Makes for some odd looking relatives.

Edit

I should say that my grandfather came over on the boat from Wales. His name was Ernstgert ap Hwyl. It was changed at Ellis Island to Ernie Powell

Bill Little · « **Reply #29 on:** September 25, 2009, 01:01:03 AM »

Hmmmmm....... mostly German with Dutch and Cherokee here.

Of course, John, if you DON"T go with a clear canopy, it could be one of the planes (like the JU-88s) they hooked to the bottom of Fw-190s and loaded up with TnT! I really can't remember what that was called, it's 3AM here and I have been up a LONG time! LOL!1

Mongo

John Miller · « **Reply #30 on:** September 25, 2009, 08:35:25 PM »

Here's an progress report on this project. All parts have been covered except the Fuse and Nacells. I'm holding off on them until I get the canopy figured out, and have the incidences set for the engines.

As it sits, with what you see, and the flaps and elevator, weight is 22 oz's.

Still looking good for a mid 40 oz finish.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #31 on:** September 26, 2009, 06:23:51 AM »

Lookin great John!!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #32 on:** September 26, 2009, 08:55:35 AM »

If and when that gets finished it should scare the competition away. I like it. DOC Holliday

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #33 on:** September 26, 2009, 09:42:20 AM »

I like it and I also like your nice clean work bench. Hope you have had good summer.

John Miller · « **Reply #34 on:** September 26, 2009, 08:32:53 PM »

Thanks guys, and Leo, I'm building in my small mobile home. Not a lot of room, so I keep all the stuff on the work bench so I can find it.

I put some time on the project today. One of the Nacells is mounted. I messed up a little on the motor mount, and had way too much downthrust. Had to rebuild it once I had the incidence right. tomorrow, I'll mount the other one.

I did make a mold for the canopy, and formed one. It looks good sitting in place.

I used the soda pop bottle method.

Here're some pics of the mold process.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2009, 06:01:39 AM »

What did you use for the canopy, looks a bit like a mountain dew bottle.

John Miller · « **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2009, 07:49:22 AM »

I used a Sprite bottle. I wanted a green canopy as I'm planning to use a camo trim and feel that the green will work good with it. Wouldn't it be great if they made 2 liter soda bottles in more colors?

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #37 on:** September 27, 2009, 09:12:18 PM »

Wow that canopy really looks good & teutonic also. This project is REALLY coming together for ya!

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #38 on:** September 28, 2009, 10:37:32 AM »

John,
send me the dimensions of the interior of the canopy so I can trim the pilot dude before I paint him up,,

John Miller · « **Reply #39 on:** September 28, 2009, 10:46:06 AM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on September 28, 2009, 10:37:32 AM

John,
send me the dimensions of the interior of the canopy so I can trim the pilot dude before I paint him up,,

Hi Mark, The length is 5.5" to where the angled bulkheads start, about 2" from the floor to the extreme high spot, and slightly more than 2" wide at the widest part.

I'm actually happy that you guys talked me into using a conopy. It does make the plane look better.

I'll attach a photo or two of the plane with all the major parts in place. The stab and elevator looks good, and not too low AR.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #40 on:** September 28, 2009, 12:44:19 PM »

Mark,

Make sure there's a slot in the pilot's posterior. He's going to get quite a massage from the pushrod. Wheeeeee!@!!

John Miller · « **Reply #41 on:** September 29, 2009, 08:50:24 AM »

What can I say Randy. it is Tuetonic.......

John Miller · « **Reply #42 on:** October 03, 2009, 09:13:03 PM »

Update, I built and installed a pair of super charger intakes. I also installed the armement. It now has a pair of 7.9mm, a pair of 20mm, and a pair of 30mm in the nose.

I've installed small magnets to close the cowls with, installed leather fillets, several coats of butyrate, one coat of primer, and sanded most of that off.

Tomorrow, I'll spray on a coat of platinum grey for an undercoat.

Almost ready for color.

John Miller · « **Reply #43 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:34:35 PM »

If I ever use Nitrate dope under butyrate again, I hope someone kicks my butt

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #44 on:** October 05, 2009, 04:24:05 PM »

I'm with you, John. Don't understand how so many get away with nitrate first coats, then butyrate. Nothing but grief! About all you can say for nitrate is that it fills the pores better than butyrate. I take Windy's advice and go with Brodak start to finish!

Floyd

Matt Colan · « **Reply #45 on:** October 05, 2009, 04:37:59 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on October 05, 2009, 04:24:05 PM

I take Windy's advice and go with Brodak start to finish!

I do too, and have never had a problem.

By the way John, it's looking great!!

John Miller · « **Reply #46 on:** October 06, 2009, 10:45:19 AM »

I took the new plane to club meeting last night. It had a alligator looking surface from problems I'm assuming come from the two different dopes. The consensus from my clubmates was that many had used Nitrate, as base coats with great success in the past, but they seem less compatible today. The theory was put forward that with changes mandated by invironmental laws, has made them less able to tolerate each other.

This morning, the crazing has settled down and appears less a problem. I'll be able to save the finish I believe, but never again will I use anything except Butyrate from the wood up.

One of my clubmates used to work as an advisor to the military. He specialized in specifications and operational matters on other nations aircraft. We spent almost an hour discussing the Axis Ground attack aircraft, units, markings, and their weapons systems. I've been told, (if I remember correctly), that those 30mm cannons fired at a rate of about 400 rounds per minute, and were awsome with their effect on target aircraft, and armor.

As you can see, I'm having fun with this project dispite any pitfalls as to paints.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #47 on:** October 06, 2009, 12:49:12 PM »

I think you're right John. Various formulation can cause all kinds of problems. I'm convinced that some of the finishing problems I've had recently have been due to using two (or more) different batches of paint. Even if they came from the same company, let alone different kinds of paint.

Now I use the same stuff from the same can from the wood up.

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #48 on:** October 08, 2009, 09:28:30 PM »

John,

I can't help but agree with you, on no more Nitrate, considering my "Sea Vixen" cronicles. The crazing never really stopped over the wood areas, and the covering continues to split on its own. I am working on some other projects, then will completely strip the "Vixen". Hopefully I can start the refinishing in about a month or less.

I am working on an OTS airplane in tribute to John Miske.

I am also working a 2 new projects, one for PAMPA expert. (Highly Classified)

For the other program, the CAD work is about 80% completed. It will be "Out of the Box thinking" (Also Classified)

The "HOBO" is coming!

John Miller · « **Reply #49 on:** October 09, 2009, 08:01:44 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on October 08, 2009, 09:28:30 PM

John,

I can't help but agree with you, on no more Nitrate, considering my "Sea Vixen" cronicles. The crazing never really stopped over the wood areas, and the covering continues to split on its own. I am working on some other projects, then will completely strip the "Vixen". Hopefully I can start the refinishing in about a month or less.

I am working on an OTS airplane in tribute to John Miske.

I am also working a 2 new projects, one for PAMPA expert. (Highly Classified)

For the other program, the CAD work is about 80% completed. It will be "Out of the Box thinking" (Also Classified)

The "HOBO" is coming!

I'll be looking forward to seeing your stealth projects. I'm sure they'll be spectacular as usual.

Gordan came over yesterday, and we consulted on the finish problem on the "flug". It's been decided that I will apply 3 more coats of clear butyrate, and then one coat of silver. After a few curing days, I'll sand off the silver, and try to not sand through the clear. This should level the finish so the problem won't affect it anymore.