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Author Topic: Banshee Painting.  (Read 2513 times)

Offline redout

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Banshee Painting.
« on: May 31, 2022, 07:23:00 PM »
Hello All

This is my first kit build in a very long time. I have made a few mistakes along the way, but have taken notes so I don't repeat them on the next Banshee.

I want to fly as soon as possible so I chose what I think is the easiest way to apply the finish : I have covered the wings with plastic film ( Solarfilm ) and will paint the rest ( flaps show the colour of the paint ). I am more interested in getting back to learning stunt than having an immaculate looking model. ( Please ignore the outboard flap to wing gap - that was one of my mistakes...)

Which of the two ways below is favoured when building a profile model ? What are the pros and cons of one way vs. the other ?

1) paint all the balsa parts ( fuse, stabilisers, etc. ) while they are still separate, then glue the painted parts together and to the wing, or

2 ) glue the unpainted balsa parts together and to the wing, then paint them

Thanks.


Online Dave Hull

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2022, 08:20:49 PM »
I like to paint everything after it is together, except for the flaps and elevators. If I paint those (not plastic covering), then I do them off the plane and they go on last. It means that there are no gaps in the paint for the fuel to get in, and it is easier. Also, if you put the hinges in after painting, you are less likely to have everything get stuck together in places things shouldn't be stuck together....

One complication with the elevators is if the joiner goes thru the fin, then you want to check to see via dry-fitting that you can install everything later. On a profile it is rarely (ever?) an issue. So put the fin on with some epoxy, then I'd go back and put in a small epoxy fillets for added strength and move on to painting.

If your wing is not already glued in, I would put in the hardwood mounts immediately, so that you can finish up the sandwich and drill for your engine while you still have things in a laminated plank form. Essential if you are going to use a drill press; helpful if you are hand-drilling. And while flat, you can use the plans to help get everything in a zero-offset thrust alignment.

I often will take a profile fuselage up thru filling and priming before I glue in the wing and stab. Just easier to handle things that way, and less hanger rash.

But there's a million ways to skin a cat....

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2022, 08:39:53 PM »
I like to paint everything after it is together, except for the flaps and elevators.
Ditto's

Ken

Curious why the bellcrank pushrod exits the wing so far forward.  Is there a "Z" bend in the wire?  Make sure you cover it with a blister.  With the controls on the same side as the engine, all kinds of nasty stuff is going to get in there.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 09:18:05 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2022, 08:40:12 PM »
I'm sorta half-backwards from Dave: I like to get everything primed and ready for the final coat, then assemble, then paint.

Note that if you're using 'coat on the wings you may as well use it on the tail feathers, too.

And I know I'm not supposed to mention it -- but you can cut those hinges out on that flap and fix the error.
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Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2022, 03:16:13 AM »
I should state now that I omitted to tell everyone that this plane will be electric motor powered ( due only to the noise complaints which would otherwise surely eventuate ). I only left the front end as per the kit for now because I wanted the motor, battery, etc. placement to be done very last, with the entire rest of the airframe complete, to ensure the C of G is correct. Then I will cut the nose to length and make a motor mount. I converted my only other c.l. plane at the moment (an ARF Flite Streak) like this.

I like to paint everything after it is together, except for the flaps and elevators. If I paint those (not plastic covering), then I do them off the plane and they go on last. It means that there are no gaps in the paint for the fuel to get in, and it is easier. Also, if you put the hinges in after painting, you are less likely to have everything get stuck together in places things shouldn't be stuck together....

Dave, that makes a lot of sense. I especially like the hinges advantage you talk about after having spent two hours a few nights ago snipping out all the steel hinge pins ( DuBro nylon hinges ), gently reaming out the hinge pivot holes, scraping off epoxy, etc. after getting the epoxy everywhere on the first hinge fitting attempt ( and still I messed up the flap to wing gap...)

Ken, can you describe the blister you mention ? ( I will end up glo powering another model in future ). And the reason the pushrod exits so far forward is as you say - I did put a Z-bend in and my reasoning was that with a short vertical section of pushrod, I could keep the pushrod slot cut into the balsa sheeting as short as possible. I was thinking not so much about exhaust residue going in ( which is a great point with an engine installation ), but more from an aerodynamic consideration - keeping the wing as "closed-up" as possible. But since you have mentioned this, I am now thinking that maybe putting in the Z-bend makes no difference to the slot length ! It still seems to me though that the positions of the ends of the slot can be more easily defined with the vertical section in the pushrod ? Am I wrong ?

Tim, I am going to tape the hinge line and I would be amazed if the current set-up failed mechanically as the hinges are very well secured. I know it's not nice to look at, but I can't wait to fly asap. I won't make the same mistake again. I will try the Solarfilm on the tail feathers as you suggested because it seems it may be quicker to do and if that doesn't work out, I will paint them as per Dave's method. I will still paint the fuse though as it looks beyond me right now to try that with the film.

Thankyou all for your help !


« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 03:38:43 AM by redout »

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2022, 06:52:46 AM »
Ken, can you describe the blister you mention ? ( I will end up glo powering another model in future ). And the reason the pushrod exits so far forward is as you say - I did put a Z-bend in and my reasoning was that with a short vertical section of pushrod, I could keep the pushrod slot cut into the balsa sheeting as short as possible. I was thinking not so much about exhaust residue going in ( which is a great point with an engine installation ), but more from an aerodynamic consideration - keeping the wing as "closed-up" as possible. But since you have mentioned this, I am now thinking that maybe putting in the Z-bend makes no difference to the slot length ! It still seems to me though that the positions of the ends of the slot can be more easily defined with the vertical section in the pushrod ? Am I wrong ?
Maybe a picture is worth the alleged 1,000 words.  The actual slot may be even smaller nearer to the TE.  The "Blister" is that half cone shaped bump over the pushrod.  On the 1st one the exit was close enough to the fuselage to make it a 1/4" cone.  On the other, it needed to be further out due to the logarithmic horn. With the "Z" bend you won't need a very large one.

Ken
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Online Trostle

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2022, 12:03:29 PM »




 ( and still I messed up the flap to wing gap...)

I did put a Z-bend in and my reasoning was that with a short vertical section of pushrod, I could keep the pushrod slot cut into the balsa sheeting as short as possible.

Tim, I am going to tape the hinge line and I would be amazed if the current set-up failed mechanically as the hinges are very well secured. I know it's not nice to look at, but I can't wait to fly asap. I won't make the same mistake again.

Thank you all for your help !


A Z-Bend like that between your bellcrank and the flap control horn will accentuate any pushrod flex that will happen when the flaps are loaded during both inside and outside maneuvers.  Probably not a good idea to just make the pushrod exit slot in the wing shorter.  There already is a lot of disturbance in that area due to the prop wash over the wing/fuselage joint.  Making that slot shorter might improve appearance but will serve only to "soften" control response which may not be bad on that profile, but will not help.

You state that you will seal the gap in that offset outboard flap.  Essentially, that means that you are increasing the effective area of the outboard area  of the outboard flap.  That might work, but most likely will lead to trim problems.

I recommend fixing both.

Keith

Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2022, 09:12:32 PM »
Maybe a picture is worth the alleged 1,000 words.  The actual slot may be even smaller nearer to the TE.  The "Blister" is that half cone shaped bump over the pushrod.  On the 1st one the exit was close enough to the fuselage to make it a 1/4" cone.  On the other, it needed to be further out due to the logarithmic horn. With the "Z" bend you won't need a very large one.

Ken

Thank you very much for the photos Ken. I had no idea such a thing even existed as I don't recall ever seeing them on the many c/l plane photos I have looked at. I will definitely incorporate that on my glo powered aircraft.

Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2022, 09:15:09 PM »
A Z-Bend like that between your bellcrank and the flap control horn will accentuate any pushrod flex that will happen when the flaps are loaded during both inside and outside maneuvers.  Probably not a good idea to just make the pushrod exit slot in the wing shorter.  There already is a lot of disturbance in that area due to the prop wash over the wing/fuselage joint.  Making that slot shorter might improve appearance but will serve only to "soften" control response which may not be bad on that profile, but will not help.

You state that you will seal the gap in that offset outboard flap.  Essentially, that means that you are increasing the effective area of the outboard area  of the outboard flap.  That might work, but most likely will lead to trim problems.

I recommend fixing both.

Keith

I had anticipated the possible flap issue you mention, but not the pushrod flex issue. Thank you Keith for your expert observations. I may try to psych myself up to attend to these now, or else wait to see how it flies and then do them.

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2022, 06:58:41 PM »
I had anticipated the possible flap issue you mention, but not the pushrod flex issue. Thank you Keith for your expert observations. I may try to psych myself up to attend to these now, or else wait to see how it flies and then do them.
[/quote)

Redout,
Nice job so far, but I have a few suggestions for you.
1) Within You hardware package there are two nylon control hors, they are used to control the flaps & elevators via the bell-crank.  The taller of the two horns is used for the flaps and the smaller horn is used on the elevators.
Mount the flap horn with the face of the control horn along the edge of the flap, with the center of the adjustment holes, align these holes with aligned with the hing pin.

2) inlet 3/16” X 1/2” X 1” basswood to end of the outboard flap

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2022, 08:13:07 PM »
I had anticipated the possible flap issue you mention, but not the pushrod flex issue. Thank you Keith for your expert observations. I may try to psych myself up to attend to these now, or else wait to see how it flies and then do them.
At this point I would see how it flies before I changed the pushrod.  It depends a lot on how you will be using it.  The Banshee is full pattern capable but you are probably not going to notice the pushrod flexing, and it will, until you start hitting the controls hard.  If you don't intend to be flying pattern maneuvers right away you might just leave it alone.  Being electric, it will be no more difficult to change it later as it is now and you won't have sloppy stuff on the wing to contend with.  What kind of bellcrank is in there?

Ken
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Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2022, 04:59:43 AM »
Hi Mikey, that flap horn is actually a different one to what was in the kit ( made by Kavan I think ). I used that because it looked much sturdier. I probably didn't need to of course. But essentially are you saying that the holes in the flap horn, should be directly over the hinge axis ? And I am interested in your other point about the basswood. Could you just explain a bit more on that as I don't quite follow.

Ken, the bellcrank is the original Sig 3 inch nylon kit one. I do remember reading on this forum some people were suggesting a 4 inch bellcrank is better for this size of model and up but by that stage, I had already glued the wing parts together, so the thought of trying to enlarge the leadout holes in the ribs was not appealing. And I figured at my level ( loops, wild figure 8's and a bit of inverted ), it probably was not a big factor for me.

I wish I had a photo from the top side but this is all I have. One thing I remember when installing the bellcrank, was I was surprised at how readily the bellcrank ends would "smash" into the inboard rib at full "up" and "down", so I epoxied in some stops on the plywood mounting plate to limit the bellcrank movement, to just shy of hitting the rib. And yet no mention of this being needed in the plans. What do others do about this ?


Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2022, 07:15:43 AM »
Ken, the bellcrank is the original Sig 3 inch nylon kit one.  This may be the good news if you are going to change the pushrod.  With electric you do not have the vibration that will loosen nuts unless they are firmly locked.  The thick nylon is enough to hold a threaded 4-40 bolt through a ball link so you would only have to cut one hole.  Having a lock nut on the other side is better, but not absolutely necessary.

I wish I had a photo from the top side but this is all I have. One thing I remember when installing the bellcrank, was I was surprised at how readily the bellcrank ends would "smash" into the inboard rib at full "up" and "down", so I epoxied in some stops on the plywood mounting plate to limit the bellcrank movement, to just shy of hitting the rib. And yet no mention of this being needed in the plans. What do others do about this ?  Most do not use stops, I do.  My reasons(s) may be different.  I use them to prevent over centering which can happen under the right circumstances and to keep pressure off of the flap horn.  I do not like the bellcrank to move once the flaps/elevators have reached their maximum deflection.  Those reasons are mutually exclusive but either is not helpful so I use stops.  Having said that I also make sure that no part of the control system can hit anything no matter how extreme the location of the leadouts before covering.  That would mean cutting the holes in the ribs to clear the leadouts from tip to mount.

You are getting there and asking the right questions - Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2022, 08:22:34 AM »
A 3" bellcrank should be OK.  4" is better for this sized plane, but not necessary.

... I was surprised at how readily the bellcrank ends would "smash" into the inboard rib at full "up" and "down", so I epoxied in some stops on the plywood mounting plate to limit the bellcrank movement, to just shy of hitting the rib. And yet no mention of this being needed in the plans. What do others do about this ?

I aim for at least +/- 30 degrees of bellcrank travel, with no possibility for the controls to get bound up at the ends of travel (because the last thing you want is for the controls to get stuck).  On your Banshee, I'd probably have relieved the ribs a bit for clearance.

But, it's been said before -- you're probably fine.  And if you aren't, then after you see how it flies you can cut into your wing, fix things, and then you will be fine.
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2022, 01:48:38 PM »
A Z-Bend like that between your bellcrank and the flap control horn will accentuate any pushrod flex that will happen when the flaps are loaded during both inside and outside maneuvers.  Probably not a good idea to just make the pushrod exit slot in the wing shorter.  There already is a lot of disturbance in that area due to the prop wash over the wing/fuselage joint.  Making that slot shorter might improve appearance but will serve only to "soften" control response which may not be bad on that profile, but will not help.

Indeed.  Also, the flex will increase with airspeed, making it difficult to fly in the wind.  Keep the pushrod straight on the next plane.

You state that you will seal the gap in that offset outboard flap.  Essentially, that means that you are increasing the effective area of the outboard area  of the outboard flap.  That might work, but most likely will lead to trim problems.

Fixing the hinges would be the first choice, but you may be comforted by the fact that most modern stunt planes have more chord on the outside flap than on the inside flap.  Tape them either way, especially if you leave the gap.  I would guess that trim problems with the extended flap would be subtle and could be fixed by cutting off a little flap. 
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Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2022, 10:03:19 PM »
Thank you everyone ! Your expert comments have helped me tremendously.

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2022, 11:14:01 AM »
Thank you everyone ! Your expert comments have helped me tremendously.

Redout,
I like to inlay a triangle of (1-1/5” X .75  basswood into the ends of all flaps & elevators, not only does it provide a solid mounting surface it greatly stiffens the control surface.

3) Remove the Z bend in the pushrod, you want the pushrod from the bell-crank as straight as possible to prevent any flexing of the pushrod period!  Add a far lead in the 3/32” pushrod or replace it with a carbon fiber pushrod with the proper titanium end and ball-links.

4) I’m glad you are considering using a single wire fore each control surface, they are easy to change, repair, and paint.  For Quick paint job, paint the fuselage with epoxy paint, one or two coats of clear lightly sanded between coats, two coats of primer.  Sand off almost all the primer leaving the wood grain filled.  Now assemble the model making sure it’s straight and aligned perfectly.

5) add your fillets, this greatly increases the strength of the assembled model.  Tape off and add one more coat of primer and allow to cure.  At this point you should have a great surface to add you base color.  You can fly it now and add any trim colors you want.  I’ve made a few models like that that I didn’t want to spend the time to make a great finish, but these models have a way of just hanging around for ever.  I know there are people that use the iron on covering on the fuse also, in my opinion, the above paint job will work and last much longer without wrinkling and looking bad when out in the sun.

If nothing else, have fun and fly the heck out of it,
Mikey

PS. For your next Banshee follow along with me on this forum to build your next model and turn it into a Super Stunt Banshee, hopefully you will learn a bunch of new things that will help.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 11:37:03 AM by MikeyPratt »

Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2022, 04:25:00 AM »
Great tips. Especially like the quick paint job method as I have no real idea about painting balsa. Look forward to getting into that Super Stunt Banshee. Thanks Mikey.

Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2022, 12:28:13 AM »
Great tips. Especially like the quick paint job method as I have no real idea about painting balsa. Look forward to getting into that Super Stunt Banshee. Thanks Mikey.

Redout,
Your farther along on your Banshee, so I’ll give you an idea how to paint it quickly and look pretty darn good.  I would continue covering the flaps & elevators with the iron-on covering then paint the fuselage, but it’s up to you.

Begin by sanding the balsa parts (that you intend to paint) with different grit sandpaper, start with 220 grit and sand until smooth and all imperfections are removed.  Then switch to 360 grit and sand it again removing the rough spots and imperfections.

The paint is expensive so you it sparingly, get the “Glass Coat epoxy pant Clear” and mix the paint 1-1-1 (1 part clear, 1 part hardner, 1 part thinner) and allow it to set in the glass container or cup for at least 1/2 hour, Brush on the clear epoxy paint with a low quality brush, brush on one side, then wipe off the epoxy paint with a paper towel (this will force the paint deep into the pours of the wood).  Wiping off the excess paint removes a bunch of weight from the finish.  After 24 hours lightly sand the surface with 360 grit sandpaper and inspect the surface making sure the woodgrain is filled or close to it (if not repeat the process again).  Note: Stand most parts vertically when curing.

Next add a coat of epoxy primer mixed as per instructions but do not wipe off the primer with a paper towel.  Allow it to cure over night or longer before sanding off the primer with 220 grit paper then switching to 369 grit sandpaper for the final sanding.  The time you put in surface preparation really shows up in the finial finish, so do good work on the surfaces to be painted.

Color coat can be brushed on or sprayed on depending on what you like.  If brushing, choose a good quality camel hair brush and making long smooth strokes.  If using an air brush spray (I highly recommend) it on in light even coats, about 25 PSI pressure and allow to cure.  REALLY BIG NOTE HERE! Clean all brushes and spray equipment with the Glass coat epoxy thinner, then lacquer thinner to make sure they are clean.  Otherwise they will be junk overnight when dry.

I know a lot of people try different things painting models, some are good and other not so good, but this works well and comes out looking great and it’s tuff and light.

Later,
Mikey




Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2022, 08:03:15 AM »
Redout,
Your farther along on your Banshee, so I’ll give you an idea how to paint it quickly and look pretty darn good.  I would continue covering the flaps & elevators with the iron-on covering then paint the fuselage, but it’s up to you.

Begin by sanding the balsa parts (that you intend to paint) with different grit sandpaper, start with 220 grit and sand until smooth and all imperfections are removed.  Then switch to 360 grit and sand it again removing the rough spots and imperfections.

The paint is expensive so you it sparingly, get the “Glass Coat epoxy pant Clear” and mix the paint 1-1-1 (1 part clear, 1 part hardner, 1 part thinner) and allow it to set in the glass container or cup for at least 1/2 hour, Brush on the clear epoxy paint with a low quality brush, brush on one side, then wipe off the epoxy paint with a paper towel (this will force the paint deep into the pours of the wood).  Wiping off the excess paint removes a bunch of weight from the finish.  After 24 hours lightly sand the surface with 360 grit sandpaper and inspect the surface making sure the woodgrain is filled or close to it (if not repeat the process again).  Note: Stand most parts vertically when curing.

Next add a coat of epoxy primer mixed as per instructions but do not wipe off the primer with a paper towel.  Allow it to cure over night or longer before sanding off the primer with 220 grit paper then switching to 360 grit sandpaper for the final sanding.  The time you put in surface preparation really shows up in the finial finish, so do good work on the surfaces to be painted.

Color coat can be brushed on or sprayed on depending on what you like.  If brushing, choose a good quality camel hair brush and making long smooth strokes.  If using an air brush spray (I highly recommend) it on in light even coats, about 25 PSI pressure and allow to cure.  REALLY BIG NOTE HERE! Clean all brushes and spray equipment with the Glass coat epoxy thinner, then lacquer thinner to make sure they are clean.  Otherwise they will be junk overnight when dry.

I know a lot of people try different things painting models, some are good and other not so good, but this works well and comes out looking great and it’s tuff and light.

Later,
Mikey

Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2022, 12:25:17 AM »
Hi Mikey

Since last posting, I have in fact covered the fuselage in plastic film. I only did it this way because it was fast and as this is my first flapped stunt plane, it's probably not worth investing too much time on appearance.

But your painting tips are invaluable to me as I am getting the idea those beautifully finished models I see are painted and not film covered.

I will take on board the following from your advice - use epoxy type paints and primers ( I have used this a little previously on a car repair ), seal the balsa ( that was your first step I think ), then prime and paint.

Also all those little tips on exact paint type, sealing, sanding and spraying are very much appreciated as I have little experience painting balsa wood. I'll write all this in my note book for next time.

Thank you.


Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2022, 08:49:25 PM »
Redout,
Here is a tip for spraying colors, White:  Spray light coat of white over primer, as the white epoxy cures it become more opec thus making the color even out.  If you are going to a different color, I.E. yellow, red, light blue, and silver they cover much better over a base of white with one or two dusting coats of the next color.

Unlike dope or some enamels you don’t need a coat of clear to seal the edges of the tape to avoid leaking along the paint trim.  As long as your using (fresh) 3M thin line tape.  Clear:  Use a Hi quality clear (PPG) over the model after its sanded wet with 600 wet or dry paper (finer if you have it) to even out all the edges of the trim.  When satisfied, ad you panel lines and decals before spray your clear.  I spray the clear in two light coats, first coat lightly spraying all the paint trim lines, once that coat becomes tacky I spray the second coat evenly over the entire model and allow it to cure.  Note:  All sanding is done with the sandpaper wrapped around a balsa block to even out the surface and paint edges.  It can be rubbed out with 1500 grit wet or dry paper (wet) almost anytime you want after is cures in 1 or 2 days.

Mikey Pratt



Offline redout

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2022, 10:46:38 PM »
Mikey,

The next plane I build, I am going to try some painting as opposed to using film, just for the practice.

Already I'll be doing things differently to what I was going to do, based on your tips.

Your advice is much appreciated.

Online kevin king

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Re: Banshee Painting.
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2022, 10:11:43 AM »
[quote author=MikeyPratt  Use a Hi quality clear (PPG) over the model after its sanded wet with 600 wet or dry paper (finer if you have it) to even out all the edges of the trim.  When satisfied, ad you panel lines and decals before spray your clear.  I spray the clear in two light coats, first coat lightly spraying all the paint trim lines, once that coat becomes tacky I spray the second coat evenly over the entire model and allow it to cure.  Note:  All sanding is done with the sandpaper wrapped around a balsa block to even out the surface and paint edges.  It can be rubbed out with 1500 grit wet or dry paper (wet) almost anytime you want after is cures in 1 or 2 days.

Mikey Pratt
[/quote]

Mike, What kind of high quality PPG clear are you refering to?

Kevin


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