If you can get a wrench or nut driver on it, just give it a twist and I think you'll see it flake right off. It's just supposed to resist vibration, not directly applied torque. It's a cheap, Chinese substitute so don't expect a lot from it.

   The adjustable lead outs will be a challenge just from what I have seen on the two I have messed with. They got a LOT of extra wood that isn't in a kit or plans built model that you will have to deal with. The tip eight box might be the same but you could prefabricate the box, then cut into the bottom sheeting right up against the tip rib and the spar and see how that will work. I really haven't had to deal with tip weight  on either.

  i put in some custom fitted 3/8" thick balsa with the grain running across the fuselage in between the engine mount beams to tie those together and it also gives you a real floor to support a tank. Make a top block for the front of the engine mounts to tie them together there and run it up against the firewall, after you have gotten your engine fitted and mounting hardware installed. I put a short length of 3/8" balsa between the bearers at that point also, and then you can work on gussets for the bottom. Everything gets coated with thinned epoxy when finished.
   
  You are on the right track with everything else.

  Type at you later,
  Dan  McEntee

You’re right on with the soldering iron idea to soften the glue on the bellcrank nut.
It works well.
Have fun with your Nobler!

     Sorry to take so long to reply. I'm on the road visiting my son and granddaughter in Colorado Springs, and it's been a pretty busy visit!! Things are just now settling down to a mild roar so we can rest up for the drive back home.!! I hate using my phone for this stuff and just finally got my lap top out and hooked up.

     Modifying the tip for adjustable lead outs is definitely worth the trouble, and I would not omit that step.  I would imagine most of these will benefit from some adjustment. I think it depends on the weight of the power plant that you choose and how accurate you install the wing. On the two examples I have, I was not the person that started the assembly on them. They are assembled close enough to fly for fun as a beater model. As I mentioned, I retrofitted all the usual nose upgrades and improvements, but they could have been better if I had been assembling the airplane from the start.. I think adding the re-enforcements and supports is critical to having an airplane that might last a fair amount of time. When it came to the lead outs, I just decided to hold off and see how they flew.

     The first one really needed the lead outs moved forward. I cut away the covering off the tip and found all sorts of wood glued in the hold the guide tubes in place and some other stuff I couldn't explain but to put in a slider type lead out guide would require a lot of rework and cutting stuff out. . Being the lazy sort that I am, I saw that I could just move the read guide forward to within about 3/4" of the front one. I hung the airplane by the lead outs to check it and this improved things a lot and the first flights were much better. I left that airplane as it was and started work on the second one

     The second model wasn't quite as bad but i decided to move the rear guide tube forward like I did on the first one anyway. When I cut the tip covering away, the structure on the tip of this airplane was different from the first one, more bits of wood added to anchor things down, and I couldn't easily move the tube like I could on the first one. It's kind of hard to describe, but I think I need to remove the covering from the next two rib bays to get to what needs to be cut out and altered, and I just haven't felt like doing that as yet. If I get around to assembling one from the beginning, I'll probably strip the covering completely and start from scratch if I have enough covering material. I think it all can be done much better than what I have and the final result will be a much better flying model that will last longer.

  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

     Sorry to take so long to reply. I'm on the road visiting my son and granddaughter in Colorado Springs, and it's been a pretty busy visit!! Things are just now settling down to a mild roar so we can rest up for the drive back home.!! I hate using my phone for this stuff and just finally got my lap top out and hooked up.

     Modifying the tip for adjustable lead outs is definitely worth the trouble, and I would not omit that step.  I would imagine most of these will benefit from some adjustment. I think it depends on the weight of the power plant that you choose and how accurate you install the wing. On the two examples I have, I was not the person that started the assembly on them. They are assembled close enough to fly for fun as a beater model. As I mentioned, I retrofitted all the usual nose upgrades and improvements, but they could have been better if I had been assembling the airplane from the start.. I think adding the re-enforcements and supports is critical to having an airplane that might last a fair amount of time. When it came to the lead outs, I just decided to hold off and see how they flew.

     The first one really needed the lead outs moved forward. I cut away the covering off the tip and found all sorts of wood glued in the hold the guide tubes in place and some other stuff I couldn't explain but to put in a slider type lead out guide would require a lot of rework and cutting stuff out. . Being the lazy sort that I am, I saw that I could just move the read guide forward to within about 3/4" of the front one. I hung the airplane by the lead outs to check it and this improved things a lot and the first flights were much better. I left that airplane as it was and started work on the second one

     The second model wasn't quite as bad but i decided to move the rear guide tube forward like I did on the first one anyway. When I cut the tip covering away, the structure on the tip of this airplane was different from the first one, more bits of wood added to anchor things down, and I couldn't easily move the tube like I could on the first one. It's kind of hard to describe, but I think I need to remove the covering from the next two rib bays to get to what needs to be cut out and altered, and I just haven't felt like doing that as yet. If I get around to assembling one from the beginning, I'll probably strip the covering completely and start from scratch if I have enough covering material. I think it all can be done much better than what I have and the final result will be a much better flying model that will last longer.

  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

Thx Dan

I'm heading in the direction of removing all the wing covering to accomplish the mods.

I acquired the Nobler ARF kit for $50 and don't know how old it is. I had another old Shoestring model I acquired that had whateverkote and the outer wing lower covering ripped off mid-air on the 3rd flight. Weakened old glue due to age I assumed. So, I will do new iron-on plus it should help with making the wing mods easier to accomplish.

Plus, there is an expected 3/4 oz lead weight on the outer wing tip that will have to be removed and replaced with the new weight box. So, a lot of wing-related work.

Simple is just not in my DNA but here goes.  I grabbed a set of Green Box plans from Outerzone.  You will see a red line where I have marked the CG from the plans.  The picture of the framed tip is from my Endgame IV.  I think that should be enough to give you the idea.  Build the tip shape with strips leaving a hole in the center then glue in the slider and frame around it.  You should be able to match the "ribs" in the tip and make it look just like the other tip with a bulge in the middle where the leadouts come out.  The picture of my ARF tip is before I converted it to electric and what is interesting is that even though they are adjustable nearly an inch in either direction they ended up almost exactly where the fixed leadouts were, just closer together which counts.  When I build my slider mounts I print out a scale and glue it to the frame.  I put the "0" on the place I select for starting setting.

(A) is the area you need to cut out of the existing tip.
(B) is the approximate length of the spar cutout you will need.
(C) is a rough sketch of what it will look like before you put the ribs back.

If you are changing controls, which you said you were, I recommend you either use a 4" bellcrank or move the 3" forward a 1/2".  You need the spar clearance for the fwd. leadout if you move the loadouts back.  When you get it all mounted make sure the leadouts clear everything with the slider full forward and full aft with full up and full down at both extremes.

PLAN "B"

Use the method Gieseke used on his Nobler(s) and most of the Bears running loose in Dallas.  A 1" long gromet and a tight fit in a series of holes in the tip.  Probably easier than a slider.  Good luck - ken

Thank you Ken, much appreciated.

I will be using a Brodak slider-type lead out guide. The 2 holes for the lead outs are close together at 3/4" spacing which is good. Concerning the adjustment length range at the wing tip, I already have a good idea of where the CG needs to be based on the Nobler ARF I already have. It is basically the same as the CG location shown on the original Nobler plan. Then the centerline of the lead outs placed at say 3/4" behind the CG point will be a good starting point for the center of the lead out guide location. Then be able to adjust the lead outs 1" north or south of this point. The Brodak guide has a full adjustment range of 2-1/8".

For those that have never seen the stock bell crank arrangement on a Top Flite Nobler ARF, well here it is.

All I can say is WOW!

For those that have never seen the stock bell crank arrangement on a Top Flite Nobler ARF, well here it is.

All I can say is WOW!

   That must be a later production run kit. The bell crank assembly and even wing tip construction changed through out production. First run kits just had cable through the metal bell crank I believe and this was their cheap fix for the bell crank sawing the cable in two. Did you already remove the push rod or was it already gone? While you are at it, might as well bush the elevator horn holes if you are going to use those. Those are soft as butter and wear oblong pretty quickly.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I replaced the stock belcrank with the 4 inch belcrank. Replaced the control horns with the longer ones. The stock clunk fuel tank will crack at the seam in the neck area, be aware of the leak.

Jerry

Removable wing?   

Ken

No plans like that on my model.

Colin

Sorry, I forgot that the ARF had the LE dowl and bolts in the TE.  Why the 3"?  A 4" is much better.

Ken

Probably more with 3" than 4".  Relative to the age of the design, they are a new thing.

 I'm sure there are plenty of Noblers out there with 3", but no real downside to use a 4".

There is NO downside, it is the upside of using the 4" that you want.  First better leverage which means your effective flap movement is greater and the controls slower if you so choose and, (drumroll) the larger size will mean less rib cutting for the adjustable loadouts.  I fly a much larger plane and use a 5".

Ken

Now that I have the Nobler ARF wing open, I have a couple of questions.

1. Adjustable lead-out centerline in relation to CG:  I currently have a somewhat beat up Nobler that I fly with the CG at 2.5" from the wing LE at the fuselage. This CG location seems pretty good in the air. This is also the kit recommended CG location.

At this CG location, the centerline of the kit fixed lead outs are a full 2-1/16" behind the CG which is a lot. My first thought is to center the new adj lead outs say 3/4" behind the CG. Then I can adjust the lead out position north and south from that point about 1" either way. So, my question is if the 3/4" centerline location behind the CG is OK, or is there a better location based on others flight experience.

2. New 4" bell crank forward lead out line:  The front lead out line is under the wing sheeting and behind the spar webbing. This will make it difficult to see if the new front lead out line will interfere with the wing ribs or other wing parts. Any experience or suggestions are welcome. In light of question 1 above, the front lead out at the wing tip with be much farther forward compared to stock.  (The rear lead out is fully accessible so no issue if and minor rib trimming is needed.)

Thx in advance.

Colin

Let me pass on what I did on my arf.  After replacing the bellcrank I removed the top ribs on the inboard tip.  I don't know what you will use so I will leave that to you.  I made mine so that the leadouts were above the C/L like they are on the ARF.  Before adding the adjustable box, find a 30+" arrow shaft and cover it with sandpaper.  Thread the forward leadout through the covered shaft and slowly grind the ribs away until you can get the forward leadout to the furthest aft position the leadouts could be with it pulled as far as it will go.  Biggest mistake in converting is to not allow for the leadouts to move without hitting something.  Make sure the aft is not hitting any ribs when the adjustable is full forward.  I think your BC is mounted behind the spar enough that this will not be a problem and the 4" will give you maby 2 ribe you don't have to sand.  You will have cut the center out of about 1/2 of the inboard spay, maybe more.  When you have it all cleared out get some stiff 1/16 x 1/8 and glue them vertically just behind where the back leadout passes through the rib with it in the full aft position.  That will replace a small amount to the crush strength from cutting the spar.

Good Luck - Ken

Thanks, Ken, for the means and methods as they will surely help. And I have removed the 3 upper wing tip ribs as you have done. I will reshape the wing tip airfoil once I have the wing tip slot installed.

But I was sort of inquiring the distance behind the CG to set the 'centerline' of the lead outs as a good zero point. Based on good flight performance, where have others set their lead out position on their Nobler ARFs?

So where is a good lead out position for a good flying Nobler ARF? The stock ARF has rudder offset and the C/L of the fixed lead outs is close to 2" behind the CG. I will be removing the rudder offset, and 2" seems way too far back.

Thanks

Colin

I am sorry, you were good with the 3/4 behind the CG starting point.  Maybe an inch.  My Noblers were a bit on the aft end of the range.  I think it is the design.

Ken

Thx much. I'll set it up for 1" for the eventual maiden. And that is the 'centerline' of the 2 lead outs, not the forward lead out.

On my Nobler ARF, I removed the glued-in lead shot tip weight, and added a Brodak weight box.

I have no idea how much tip weight was in the original ARF kit. Any info on how much tip weight to add to the box would be appreciated. I guess I could start with say 1 oz and go from there based on flight performance.

I also fly on Spectra lines, so being lighter I can usually get away with a bit less tip weight.

I do have a set of plans for the original Nobler. It suggests 3/4 oz, but not sure if the same holds true for the Top Flite Nobler ARF.

Thx in advance.

Colin

Not understanding 1/2 oz glued in and 1/4 in the weight box. Why not just 3/4 oz in the box?? It's all adjustable.

Colin

To save room in the weight box for weight.  Unless you build the weight into the ourboard wing, some do, it will need some weight.

Ken

The Brodak adj weight box can store around eight 1/4 oz rectangular lead weights (2 oz). Hopefully that will be enough, especially with Spectra lines.

Colin

   With stock Green Box Asymmetry, the box alone with nothing might be enough. 2 ounces is not in the plan.

     Brett

I didn't mean to imply I was going to put in 2 oz. I was just responding to Ken's comment.

I have an 'Original' Nobler plan, and it says 3/4 oz so I'll start there. And yes, the Brodak weight box (with bolt) does offer some weight benefit empty of lead. But I also installed a ply lead out guide which will cancel some of the weigh box balance.

To your point I did have a past profile model with the same weight box design. No added lead was necessary.

I didn't mean to imply I was going to put in 2 oz. I was just responding to Ken's comment.

I have an 'Original' Nobler plan, and it says 3/4 oz so I'll start there. And yes, the Brodak weight box (with bolt) does offer some weight benefit empty of lead. But I also installed a ply lead out guide which will cancel some of the weigh box balance.

To your point I did have a past profile model with the same weight box design. No added lead was necessary.

   By "Original Nobler" are you talking about the Brodak kit? That has about 2" or so of wing offset, doesn't it? It will be pretty different from the ARF Nobler which is more like the Top Flite Green Box Nobler. I don't know how much weight they install in the ARF Noblers. The two I have for fun flying are as issued and I haven't seen the need for more or less, and never been into the outvoard wing on either as yet.  Have you checked on and measure the ARF tip weight as it comes in the kit? Just curious.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

   By "Original Nobler" are you talking about the Brodak kit? That has about 2" or so of wing offset, doesn't it? It will be pretty different from the ARF Nobler which is more like the Top Flite Green Box Nobler. I don't know how much weight they install in the ARF Noblers. The two I have for fun flying are as issued and I haven't seen the need for more or less, and never been into the outvoard wing on either as yet.  Have you checked on and measure the ARF tip weight as it comes in the kit? Just curious.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

The plan I have for the 'original' Nobler I did get from Brodak. But Brodak says their kit is an accurate duplication of GA's original Nobler and is OTS legal. And the plan does show the inboard wing approx 2" longer.

The Top Flite Nobler ARF kit has the inboard wing approx 1" longer.

I removed the lead shot from the outboard wing and installed a weight box. I have no idea how much weight was in the ARF as I had to cut out the lead shot 'bit by bit' and couldn't really weigh it. The Chinese in their infinite wisdom just made a soup of lead shot and epoxy and poured it into a balsa 'box'. Was difficult to remove being epoxied in. Luckily, the wing tip plate was plywood so was able to take a bit of abuse while slowly cutting out the lead shot.

The pics are of the before and after of the lead shot removal. And you can see the new weight box which had to go a bit more inboard near the last rib. To place the new box farther out would have taken a lot of surgery with limited space. Best I could to at my build skill level.

 

  There really is nothing in common between the "Original Nobler" and the Top Flite Green Box Noble or what some call the " '57 Nobler" other than George designed both himself and they look alike! I got a copy of his Original Nobler from George himself at VSC years ago and he explained a lot of the history. Basically there was his personal airplane, then the plan as presented in M.A.N. in 1952 and then the green box Nobler. Some of this may be explained in the 2 part article for M.A.N. that he did for the Nobler in '52. Most of the guys flying stunt in that era didn't often make elaborate plan for models, and they changed things on the fly. George was originally from Ohio, and after graduating from college moved to Texas to take a job. Top Flite contacted him about producing the Nobler as a kit and asked him to draw up a set of plans. There was some pressure on him to get this done because they wanted to have the kit released before the end of that year. George didn't have any plans in Texas and his brown paper drawings and what was left of the airplane was back home in Ohio. So he started from scratch, drawing from memory, and made some changes that he thought the airplane needed. I got the impression from listening to George tell the story that he was really less than 100% pleased with the airplane and thus the changes. He sent the plans off to Top Flite and then they made some changes in order to engineer the kit so it would fit in their standard box, more or less making the airplane a bit smaller to useless wood and facilitate production processes like die cutting and such. If you can round up all three plans to compare then you should see differences fairly easy.  I suggest thinking of each version as a stand alone design because they really are in my opinion.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Thanks Dan

I really enjoy reading up on all of this type of CL history. So very interesting.

I'm in the final stages of finishing my Nobler ARF. I decided to go with yellow to recover the wing to resemble military trainer colors. (Plus it will make the model easier to locate if crashed )

Plus, some new decals from Callie Graphics can't hurt. (The old decals that came w/ the ARF kit were pretty rancid!)

Colin

I'm getting to the point where I will need to cut the various openings in the stock FG cowl.

Based on others past experience, what is the best tool and method to make the necessary cuts/openings.

Colin

I would suggest you STOP now and before proceeding, scrub the inside surface squeaky clean and epoxy another layer of glass cloth to the inside to add some more rigidity to it. As you make the cut outs, it only gets worse. I plan on doing that with my next one. Make sure you are completely finished with the engine installation also. I use fine tip markers and start with the opening for the head if it needs it. Start with the glow plug hole and gradually work out from there. Mark an outline and then work your way out to it slowly a little at a time. Test fit as you go. Get it centered on the engine and do the holes for the mounting screws. You may have to do a crude opening for the venturi during all of this. The front opening for the cooling air should be as small as possible at first. As you get the other openings close to finished size, you can do the cooling air exit and it should be twice the size of the inlet opening. The exhaust opening should be last and be generous with the clearance around the exhaust stack and muffler, at least 1/8" or a bit more. Then do whatever holes you need for muffler screws. The cowlingvtakes a lit of abuse on these and to make it last and look good it's worth the extra work.
  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Thx for all the great suggestions, but back to one of the original questions. What is the best tool to be used to make the actual cuts when the time comes?

Colin

      I thought I had typed that part??!! Sorry. Use a small diameter rotary bit and Dremel tool. Using bigger bits and coarse cutting edges causes the bit to grab on you. The ones I'm referring to are intended to be side loaded, and have a diamond shaped look to the cutting edges. This chore might be best accomplished before joining the wing to the fuselage, in retrospect. Lot's of "on and off" of the cowling to check the fit.

    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Thx Dan

I don't have that particular Dremel bit but will pick one up.

Colin

I may be a bit too late but there were two things I did on one of mine that helped.  1:  Put some reinforcement on the motor mounts.  I put in a block of pine in the center section between the mounts 1/4" behind the motor to the firewall.  I added side strips that closed the gap between the cowl and the mounts.  2: With the motor mounted securely slide the cowl in place then add the motor spinner.  Tape the cowl to the spinner with an appropriate gap.  Now you can screw it in place including one in each side into the mounts.  It will be properly supported, and the spinner will align with the hole.  For the cutouts, I use the same tool as Dan.  Plug the venturi and exhaust and leave the engine in. Drill a small hole around the center of the nav and exhaust then cut away small amounts till it fits.  Remember, you have to be able to mount the muffler with the cowl already on.  Leave room for the screwdriver!

OR - forget the nightmare and build a wood cowl that will let you take it off without messing with the nav and muffler.

Ken

I did reinforce the engine mounts per past recommendations. The reinforcement also provides a platform for the Sullivan flex-type 4 oz clunk tank.

I did incorporate two 2-56 size blind nuts into the engine mount area to attach the cowl with Allen head cap screws. 

I also strengthened the landing gear mounts as well as the tail wheel attachment.

I know the crap stock cowl will be a headache but I'm planning to stay with it. My build skills are limited and seems to me it will be difficult to cleanly incorporate a balsa cowl on this ARF model. Plus, my model will need a bit of tail lead anyway, so I need to keep the nose as light as possible. I'm going to power this model with the new Enya SS 35 EX BB ABC engine which is quite light (7 oz) since the case is sized around an Enya 25 size engine.

The upgraded controls (4" bell crank, CF rods and ball joints) operate super smooth.

Colin