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Author Topic: Using carbon veil  (Read 1711 times)

Online James Mills

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Using carbon veil
« on: April 24, 2008, 10:20:27 AM »
I've used this once and applied it with butyrate, what's the benefit of using nitrate?

James
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 12:33:13 PM »
Nitrate builds up faster, is lighter, and sticks better, plus you can get it tinted (or tint it yourself). 

Other than that (except Nitrate isn't fuel proof which doesn't matter in the substrate), they are the same! LL~ LL~ LL~

I use nitrate completely for my substrates and attaching everything except .5 oz. fiberglass, where I use Z-poxy.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 01:50:28 PM »
I don't think Nitrate per volume is any lighter. It is stickier and and does build more quickly since it is somewhat higher in solids than most butyrate by volume. You can get butyrate in tinted fashion also (blue or amber).
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Offline Nils

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2008, 11:40:45 PM »
Nitrate sands a little easier too.

/\/\/
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 07:33:03 AM »
Quote from: Randy Powell on April 24, 2008, 01:50:28 PM
I don't think Nitrate per volume is any lighter. It is stickier and and does build more quickly since it is somewhat higher in solids than most butyrate by volume. You can get butyrate in tinted fashion also (blue or amber).

Hi Randy,

Never weighed it myself, but have been told for years that it is lighter.  maybe because it is higher in solids and you don't need as many coats, I don't know.  I just know I have a LOT more luck with it than butyrate for covering and substrates. y1 ;D  Billy used Aero Gloss for the same purpose forever, but the changing of the formulas finally stopped that.

Bob Hunt was actually the one who convinced me to use Nitrate exclusively for all preliminary work.  I have never been disappointed with it, which I cannot say about using all butyrate. LL~

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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 10:38:47 AM »
I was kinda keeping this to myself because so many have advocated using Nitrate for the substrate it has to be something I did wrong.

I have always used Brodak Butyrate from the wood up and have had reasonably good luck when I didn't screw something up. Never had a problem with fillets lifting, carbon veil went on and filled very well with a couple coats of ZS filler etc.

Well I tried using a Nitrate base on the Somethin'Extra fuselage because everyone told me it was more sticky. I'll never touch the stuff again and in fact gave away what was left of the quart can along with the thinner. What a nightmare, the CF didn't stick and didn't fill even after 4 coats of filler and much sanding, every fillet lifted and I spent over a week sanding and grinding to try and fix the fillets.. Finally ground them all out and replaced them with new Aeropoxy.

I have no idea what happened but it's the worst looking finish I have ever done using a dope base. I'm not going to take any time to try and find what went wrong as I know my 60-40 mix of Brodak Butyrate will work and work well. The fillets now look Ok but the nose looks like a prune and it's going to stay that way as I am tired of trying to fix it.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 11:11:38 AM »
I think part of the issue is the brand. I use Randolph's from Aircraft Spruce. The stuff come out of the can like maple syrup. You have to cut it about 600% to get it to a consistency to shoot through a spray gun. I use it right out of the can (unthinned) for initial coats and the first couple of coat on the silkspan (or veil). The stuff is very high in solids, especially straight from the can.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 11:20:25 AM »
Quote from: Randy Powell on April 28, 2008, 11:11:38 AM
I think part of the issue is the brand. I use Randolph's from Aircraft Spruce. The stuff come out of the can like maple syrup. You have to cut it about 600% to get it to a consistency to shoot through a spray gun. I use it right out of the can (unthinned) for initial coats and the first couple of coat on the silkspan (or veil). The stuff is very high in solids, especially straight from the can.

Could be but Brodak dope is Randolph's...
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 11:27:13 AM »
Yep, Bob, you did something wrong........

Bill <><
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 12:31:27 PM »
Bob,

No, Brodak's is made by Randolph's to Brodak's formula. It's not Randolph's.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2008, 09:33:23 AM »
Quote from: Ty Marcucci on April 28, 2008, 10:26:12 PM
When you applied the nitrate, did you use a NEW brush???  Butyrate may have still been in the ferrule of the brush and this may have mixed enough with the nitrate to cause all those problems. Guess how I discovered this tidbit many, many years ago. I put tape on my brush handles and label them with the color I use it for and also for Nitrate only on them.. in other words, I dedicate each brush to a certain job. Never mix them. I have five just for butyrate clear.


That may have been it, I did use an old brush and who knows what it was used for in the past. As said above I have solved the problem by eliminating nitrate all together.. I really never had a problem with using butyrate from the ground up, now I have tried nitrate and saw no advantage. Oh ya forgot to mention above, also the silkspan I put over the open bays on the fuselage never did tighten up. It looked OK when I first put it on but the first coat of nitrate made it sag and wrinkle. Ended up cutting it off and reapplying with butyrate.. Lesson learned, I don't need the stuff..
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Using carbon veil
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2008, 12:24:15 PM »
HI Bob,

Not that you will try it again, but I never put Nitrate over open bays, the stuff I get (Tinted Randolph's Non Tautening) does not shrink nearly like butyrate.  So I use Sig Supercoat Clear (HIGH shrinking, much more than Brodak's) butyrate over all open bays once I have applied the silkspan (with nitrate of course! LL~ LL~ )
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