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Building Tips and technical articles. => Building techniques => Topic started by: Will Hinton on September 26, 2011, 04:14:22 PM
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Well, after all these years, I gotta do it. A few years after I sold my full scale Pawnee in 1979, I built a semi-scale stunter of it and really liked it. Trouble is, the garage sale OS I put in it quit in a very inopportune place and I destroyed it. (Is there an opportune place, you ask. Dunno of one.)
I now have a new Evolution 60 that is in desperate need of a ride, and there happened to be a large, straight (Spell that "no taper") wing hanging on the wall from who-knows-when. Okay, here we go, Pawnee time!
Here's a picture of the fuse as it is currently, I've been having a lot of fun doing the greenhouse cockpit. The rub here is that I had to go online to re-establish the way the bloody greenhouse was actually shaped in the rear! Wow, time sure does things to old minds!
I'll post a picture of the interior in the next post since I've never bothered to learn how to get more than one pic in a post.
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And the cockpit.
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Looking good. H^^
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That's gonna be sweet Brother Will!
Big Bear
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You've been looking at too many Al Rabe videos. ;D
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Keep it going! I'm a fanatic for semi-scale stunters.
Floyd
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Quote from Randy, "You've been looking at too many Al Rabe videos." ;D
Maybe that's why it's such a slooooooww build?
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Neat stuff Will! y1
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Will:
This is so cool. Do you get extra pattern points for actually spraying? y1 Now that would be really cool!!! ;D
Larry
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Pretty cool Will. I'd fit the pilot with a respirator though! :)
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Crist, the cockpit area was actually positively pressured for the reason you're thinking about - nasty spray chemicals.
I still always wore a pesticide mask unless foliar feeding. Then I flew with the doors open. Really was cool, almost like an open cockpit plane!! ;D
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They are neat to watch as they do their work. :)
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Quote from Crist, "They are neat to watch as they do their work. ;D"
I agree, especially from the INSIDE! ;D y1 #^
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Pretty cool Will. I'd fit the pilot with a respirator though! :)
Brother Will,
That is a MUST DO! Nothing would be neater. y1
Big Bear
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All right, Crist and Bill, here's yer dadblamed respirator mask! I had a few minutes while some epoxy on a fretboard inlay cured so I whipped this up. Didn't take too long on it and it shows. May restrict his vision just a little, but at least he can breath okay. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Crist, the cockpit area was actually positively pressured for the reason you're thinking about - nasty spray chemicals.
I still always wore a pesticide mask unless foliar feeding. Then I flew with the doors open. Really was cool, almost like an open cockpit plane!! ;D
I never wore a mask. Never smelled it unless I flew back through it, rarely though. I would get a big surprize sometimes when I would get out to open the hopper to help with a rinse. My God some of those herbicides stink!! Or get out to go to the bathroom and walk by the mix tank.
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The "pressurization" on my Pawnee lacked effectiveness, so I wore the mask. The convincing thing for me was when I flew over the airport and saw the shape of the Pawnee drawn in dead grass at my tie-down spot!! You're right some of that stuff is awful.
I also did a really dumb thing one day after finishing a field and starting home. I could smell the nasty stuff even through the mask so decided to open the doors! How stupid can ya get? That poor door tried to punch its way through the side of the fuse' when it slammed down! Bent the top door frame where it hit the stop and I had a heck of a time getting it straight again. Never tried that again. HB~> HB~> R%%%%
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I could start a whole thread on the learning curve during the first few hundred hours. From the ground it looks so graceful, but sometimes there are things going on out there that are a real challenge. The wide open field with no obstructions on a real calm morning or evening are one in hundred.
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You are sooo right. (And even those can have a deer sleeping in the middle!)
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Pawnees bring up bad memories for me. My brother was killed in one in 1973. He was spraying methyl parathion when a wing caught a pecan tree limb. He went in inverted, the tank ruptured covering him in the cotton poison, and the plane caught on fire. The man flagging for him made a heroic effort to get him out, but was unable, after burning his hands. No one knows what happened, but most feel that Mike somehow caught a good whiff of the insecticide, which acts like nerve gas, and lost his ability to function. A bad day in Wharton County, Texas.
Glen Wearden
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I'm sorry to learn of this, Glen. The thought jumped into my mind of the aerobatic pilot who was killed during a show and they determined he had been bitten by a black widow spider and lost vision capabilities. I fail to remember who it was.
Whatever the pesticide, even fungicide, it's nothing to take for granted. There are dozens of ways they can turn on a pilot. I was blessed to only have one incident during my rather short career, and that one was my oversight and rather minor.
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Ag flying is definitetly not for everybody. It takes a certain personality type. I think the aerobatic/airshow pilot you are talking about was Bevo Howard, a real legend in his time, even today.
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Thanks Wade, I think you're right. The closer I get to being a platinum blond, the farther away my memory gets! I agree with you on the pilot type for ag, but there's just something special about making that final pass and seeing the hopper be empty just as you start the pull up.
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Good looking project Will! That greenhouse is all CHARACTER.
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Will, I have to agree the view from the inside of a Pawnee is the best! What a great flying airplane!! I never sprayed, but towed many a banner with them. Even with the hopper cut and re-glassed into an aux. fuel tank, the thing still smelled like pesticide! I can only imagine what they were like with a hopper load of parathion. What a great subject for a model, if not only to bring back memories.
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The thing I remember most on the Pawnee is the first flight I made when I bought the rascal. It was late March and snowy and I wanted get home quickly. Decided on a right turn out to hasten things, and...not being used to the plane, laid it over post-haste. When I cranked in a lot of aileron, we stood on our wingtip! Wow, hadn't really contemplated the fact that the 36' wing had 18' of ailerons!!! I just wish the rudder had been that effective - crosswind landings could really wear you out.
Thing is, it was just a really fun airplane for what it was designed to do. I actually took it up for pleasure rides occasionally when I needed to just chill out. Doors open, lazy day, lots of nice stuff.
I was getting ready to set it up for glider towing during the off times when I lost the medical, always wished I could have done at least a few of those tows. (Can't imagine modifying the pesticide tank for fuel! neat idea.)
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You guys got any 188 time? BIG difference from a Pawnee.
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Wish I coulda had, but my medical didn't last long enough! All the guys around here traded their Pawnees in the last spring I flew because it was so wet and the demand for dry application gave them opportunity to upgrade - you all know how nearly useless the Pawnee is for dry application. Make a round, then land and reload!
I wasn't well enough established yet to do that, and the guy I bought the Pawnee from pushed all his wet stuff my way, so I still made out okay. But, that meant I kept the Pawnee. Oh well... HB~> HB~>
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I helped a young man load his on a trailer out of a milo field. He was over loaded, and it was hot. He thought he was alright after he hit the first terrace, but then it started sinking again. When he hit the second terrace, it was just to much and down he came. Wiped out the landing gear and the prop, otherwise it seemed to be in pretty good shape. We took the wings off to get it on the trailer for the ride to the shop.
When I worked for a Motorola service shop back in the 70's, I use to do a lot of radio work for spray pilots. Most were old WWII fighter pilots, and they all walked with a limp. I had a lot of fun installing radios in Stearmans, AgCats, and Pawnees. All of those guys wanted their push to talk button on the stick, and transmit audio fed back into there head phones like they had in their fighters so they could hear themselves talk.
Where were we? Oh Yeah; Great looking Pawnee Will. Every time I watch one spraying I think it would make a great model.
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Thanks, Jim, if I can ever get this current customer's guitar done I'll get back on it!
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On the subject of the tank, the fellow who owned the plane was a bit of a mad scientist. He cut the bottom 2/3's off the hopper and re-glassed the bottom and made a nifty fuel tank. Installed a Facet pump for transfer that pumped sloooowwwwlllyyy! Had to stay on top of it, but it worked well for what we were doing. We always had 4 hooks rigged, so we could pull 4 banners without landing. Usually needed a bit more fuel than the Pawnee's standard tank would hold to get 4 full signs flown. That particular Pawnee had a Hutch wing and was a great plane for picking up banners, but the lighter wing loading made it a rough ride down the beach! The rag wing was not as nimble on the pickup, but rode much better while towing. I liked both. Our MO was to fly with no doors, on both the Pawnee's and Bellanca Scout. Summer in South Alabama gets fairly hot, but I still looked like a tanned piece of leather at the end of the season with the sun and wind burn!!! The Pawnee was just such a great plane! Honest flier and predictable. First flight was interesting. Geting used to the angle of the nose was the only thing of note. Made wheel landings a little hairy at first!! Good luck with the model and please post pics as progress is made.
PS, Wade, never got to fly a 188, but always wanted to! One of my favorite ag planes of all time! Loved that long 2-blade prop howl! Planning on modifying a Twister into a stunt 188!
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well, at last the hold up to my Pawnee build is ready for delivery so I can get on with the stunter.
here's a picture or two of the hold up project.
The top is a master grade sitka spruce and the back and sides are koa. Ended up with a great deep, rich tone and plenty of projection. I'm pleased and think my customer will be happy with it. (More pictures in the next post.)
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Here's the back of the beast, and that koa shows up really well against the walnut and maple striping.
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And finally, lest I bore you, the fret board with the mother of pearl inlay done. Somewhere between 30 to 35 hours is looking back you here, but I absolutely am addicted to this kind of work. I love it.
Now, on to the Pawnee!!
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Will,
Nice work, kudos!!
Hey! What are the vitals on your great Pawnee. It's coming along nice.
You have plans right?
Got a dummy radial? Will you build one?
Charles
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Thanks, but no radial for the Pawnee, it has a 235 or 260 Lycoming for power. Mine was a 235. The model is a 60 size, and I don't usually build from plans for scratch built, I just take a pile of contest grade Ecuadorian gold and start whackin' away! I'm heading out right now, so will include the measurements later, gotta do grandsons tonight for baseball practice. (Just as much fun as flying stunt.) y1 y1
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Is that an AG-1 in the background?
Roger
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Thought I would be back sooner than this, then four instrument repairs came all at once! Sheesh, people, slack off, I have an airplane to build!
Okay, I'm trying something different on the flaps for this ship. I'm using the Robart hinges, so just pinned the flap LE to the wing TE and drilled the holes for the hinges on the center line. Then using the center line of the flap LE, I glued a 6 to 8 lb balsa sheet to it at a 90 degree angle to give the shape. I then cut slots for the hinges in the sheet, there's plenty of grab with the LE I'm using so I'm not concerned about the fit with the sheet. I'll care for that later.
Then I put ribs evenly spaced on the sheet, and using my saw, cut them down to the taper. This gave me the ribs for the other side.
Once I have the ribs in place and sanded properly, I'll put lightening holes in the sheets and see what the weight ends up being. (I plan to make the flaps LE rounded off like the full scale Pawnee on this one.)
Let me know your thoughts on this type of construction? It seems much easier to get them straight, stiff and true this way if the weight comes out okay.
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That looks like it's shaping up to be a nice one.
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Ty, does it really help if I can make it hot air? (I have a stock of that here. Now to figure out how to affix it to the flaps.) LL~ LL~ LL~
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Is that an AG-1 in the background?
Roger
Brave.
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While digging through some old pics for my wife I ran across these of the first semi-scale Pawnee. It had garage sale OS40 in it and the thing was worn out, really lacked power.
I flew this thing at the first contest I attended after my 18 year hiatus. That was in Cleveland. Nervous as a new bride! It had two flights on it before going to the contest and was anything but ready! My son-in-law remarked as to the great applause I received for the several good saves during the ?pattern?
I took it home and started flying more, was just getting it worked out and contemplating a new engine when the 40 must have sensed it and quit after the third corner of the inside squares. I wasn't fast enough. :-[ Earth one, Will nothing.
I plan on the same paint and trim for the new one. This one died a violent death in 1989, we'll see how the newbie does.
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Will,
Progress is slow but looking really good!
Told you I had interest in this model, so don't through any of the fuselage drawings away, I'll need them. ;D
My interest is in the bi-plane.
Charles
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Drawings? I don't use no steenkin drawings! Seldom do. Just grab a pile of balsa and start cutting. As to "the biplane", what biplane are you meaning? Piper never made a bipe, and the ag biplanes were all much larger than my little Pawnee. I took a max of 150 gallons while those beasts showed off with several hundred.
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I'll build this next year. With drawings. Just in case someone wants to build one.
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Charles,, that is not a pawnee,, that is a grumman Ag Cat,, completely different airplane,, so his drawings ( assuming there were any) would not help you at all,,,
somewhere out there I recall a Ag Cat model,, no idea where I saw it thought
Now when I do one, it will be a AT-402 with the intake conversion I helped design, it was dead sexy IMHO
Heck they even offered to take me for a ride in it once it was done,, but I figured that the visibility from inside the chem hopper was probably not all that great so I declined LOL
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You're right, Mark, and the seat belt may have been a little loose! I think the Ag Cat you may be referring to was from Jean Pailet. It was featured in the June 1972 issue of the American Aircraft Modeler on page 38. I happen to have saved that issue because Jack Sheeks and I also had biplanes in the article by Al Rabe.
There's only one small picture of Jean's ship, from the left side rear, but it looks super nice. (It was a profile.) The Ag-Cat is a work horse, we still have a couple around here in northwest Ohio, but the the Thrush is taking over, especially the turbo powered.
Up in the west side of the Michigan thumb the Cessnas are king, still much smaller than the 'Cat. I had my ag training in a Super Cub!
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Mark,
Yes, correct, it's a Grumman, forgot about that.
I would have taken the ride.
I know that AT 402. That's a great looking aircraft. With it's extended nose and a tad of changes, could probably be a nice stunt contender.
Probably even keep the scale outlines. Possibly a small increase in stab/elevator span, but basically the same outlines.
I'll look for a 3-view.
Charles
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as part of my benefits from working on them, and designing the conversion, I have a complete set of factory drawings and parts catologs ,, so I have all the documentation I need for whatever I want to do,, up to and including a full scale version. We purchased wrecked airframes from the insurance componaies and completely rebuilt them. we were one of the only factory authorized repair stations . I had the pleasure of meeting Leland Snow in Reno at the ag convention when we unveiled our conversion. I was very honered to have him spend a fair amount of time walking around our desing and asking me questions,,
http://cascadeaircraftconversions.com/products.html
there is a link for ya,,
the biggest handicap in making this a competative stunter is the hershey bar wing,, no taper,, and it concerns me that it will have some built in compromise,, but still, worth the effort at some point. Since I have leterally touched every part of the airplane before, I have a good insight into making a very scale stunter,,
and the color of yellow on the original is far more vivid than the ag cat pale yellow,,
Incidently, for those that dont know,, Leland Snow designed the " Snow S-1 " one of the first purpose built appplicators. then as a progression of that he designed what later became the Thrush,, which was bought by Rockwell and Leland had to sign a no competition clause for I think it was 7 years.. During that time he thought, and deisginged the Air Tractor which if one looks at the thrush and the AT side by side you can see the lineage. Sadly, Leland passed away last year IIRC, His designs are very direct, simple and easy to work on,, well except for trying to fit the stainless gate box assembly under the hopper,, that is a royal pain,,
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Mark, an ag operator just a few miles away flew his early model Snow all the way to retirement, which was just two or so years ago. His name was George Wysall and he and his Snow worked with Purdue U. on spray patterns way back when. That old bird has some serious hours on it and required very little work through the years.
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Ty, there's a SBC4 Helldiver somewhere in my future. Love those Bipes, but couldn't afford the 'Cat when I started spraying!
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Okay, I admit it, Derek has shamed me into starting on the Pawnee again. b1
When I flew my Crosswind two the first time, I scared the bejeebers out of myself as well as those watching. When I flipped it inverted the first time the outboard wing was up a good foot!!! ~^ I climbed high and tucked it under, flew out the tank, (I always short tank on the first few flights for trim issues) and tried to tweek the flaps. No-go, the purchasd horn was simply too hard!
I had gotten lazy and decided to not build my own horns for that ship. Never again. I use drill rod for my horns, it's much more "tweekable" than music wire. Never had a failure in over twenty years of doing that.
I brought the ship home and measured, sighted, measured again, and failed to find the reason for the abnormality! Well, maybe it wasn't REALLY a foot high, but it looked like it to a scared pilot.
I knew there was no answer but to work on the flaps, and the thing was way too much to solve with a wing wart. I tried this solution in the pictures and it worked. Now, before you tell me that much misalignment can't be solved, may I share with you the several 500+ scores I've received with this airplane after getting it trimmed. It flies great now.
I cut the end of the outboard flap off, made a ply box like you see in the pictures and installed it. I started adjusting it and ended up with an airplane that both Allen Goff and Pete Bergstrom have flown and liked. 'Nuff said.
The first picture shows the interior design and the second shows the unit on the flap horn. I left the screws way too long so you can see how they are installed. Once the ship is trimmed, I'll cut them down to a much smaller extension.
Yes, it looks ugly, but I don't care, it's adjustable! I am making these flaps so narrow in chord that I don't want to risk tweeking, so am putting this in right at the start. No one has mentioned the unit on my Crosswind, so it must not look all that huge and gross. (Or maybe stunt fliers are just too kind to mention it?)
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Here is my kind of Pawnee. Duster built by Dave Merithew 25 years ago and never finished. I finished it and gave it the Pawnee look.
Ed
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Thought I fell off the earth, didn't ya? well, the guitar builds are caught up, the new laundry room is about finished, there's only three repairs in the shop and I'm getting the winter building season for stunt fever again!
Here's the flaps ready for covering, and may I say I really like the new method of construction I'm trying. These weigh in at 42 ounces ready to cover and were a breeze to build straight and stiff!
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Thought I fell off the earth, didn't ya? well, the guitar builds are caught up, the new laundry room is about finished, there's only three repairs in the shop and I'm getting the winter building season for stunt fever again!
Here's the flaps ready for covering, and may I say I really like the new method of construction I'm trying. These weigh in at 42 ounces ready to cover and were a breeze to build straight and stiff!
Will,
Looks similar to the construction of the rudder on the Corsair I'm working on? Or were working on.
Was that build an influence?
Charles
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Charles, No, can't say it was. I don't remember seeing your build on the rudder. I'm just always looking for new, lighter, straighter and stiffer ways to do things.
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WOW! I reread my post above and see I listed the new flaps at 42 OUNCES!! ~^ ~^ ~^
Please , , , make that 42 GRAMS. 42 GRAMS . . .42 GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMS!!! HB~> HB~> HB~> %^@ %^@
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With my building prowess, 42 ounces sound great. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Hey, when I said slooooooooooooow build, I knew what I was in for. But . . . I'm finally getting more time to jump back, err, make that slide back into it.
Here's a shot of mounting the fuse to the wing. You can't see it in the picture, but the instrument on the engine mount shows a 1 degree down thrust. I started using that way back when the discussion was first posted here and Crist Rigotti helped me overcome hunting in level flight with his suggestion. I've used that on two ships now, and really like the results.
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Great job Will! Truly one of the most beautiful guitars I have ever seen and I'm sure it sounds like it looks. I don't think I have enough days left on earth to develop the craftsmanship that you have, but I do aspire to continue the quest! I also want to learn to fly my Hellcat inverted and then learn the pattern and build a Nobler, Oriental, Smoothie,...............
Steve Thornton
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Thanks Steve. It looks like your future build list is as long as mine, and probably everyone elses'. When I get to thinking about all those neat ships I wanna build, it almost wears me down.
Hey, I'll bet your skills are better than you think, we're always our own harshest critics aren't we?
All the assemblies are joined now, should complete the hinging of the elevators tomorrow and then plank the bottom. Even though I'm using open construction on the fuse where the full scale was open, I'm planking the bottom for stiffness. More later.
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the instrument on the engine mount what is it and where did you get it?
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well, at last the hold up to my Pawnee build is ready for delivery so I can get on with the stunter.
here's a picture or two of the hold up project.
The top is a master grade sitka spruce and the back and sides are koa. Ended up with a great deep, rich tone and plenty of projection. I'm pleased and think my customer will be happy with it. (More pictures in the next post.)
I'd love to have one of these! ;D and the Pawnee looks great Will!
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Hey John, great to hear from ya buddy, I miss you. All it takes to own one of those is lotsa money! Thanks on the Pawnee, I hope to use it next season for the stunt wars around here, but I thought that two winters ago when I started it, too!
Brad, the instrument is made by Dasco Inc. of Rockford Il. and is called the Dasco Pro angle finder and level. I've had it a really long time, but you can probably google them to see if it's still available. I really like it because it is very sensitive and has a very fine scale. Didn't cost all that much and can be modified easily to bolt onto the crankshaft, which I have done at times, but I like the fitting I made to use it like in these pictures better.
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Here's the bare bones except for the control surfaces. This is a big fuse and I'm really pleased with the semi-scale look so far! Next step is molding my CF landing gear and cowling. After that, I guess i gotta cover up these bones, these bones, these bare bones.
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Really looks great Will. Can't wait to see it finished and flying.
Love those semi scale stunters.
Larry
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Thanks Larry! There are sooooooo many semi-scales I want to do that I don't know where to start!
I think next up for me will be the SBC-3 or 4 Helldiver biplane from the Navy's colorful years just before WW II.
They had some of the most colorful schemes of the day. I built the Berkely SBC-3 kit, but never flew it! I intend to make up for that someday. (Maybe.)
Jeff Traxler has my F9F Panther to convert to electric, I can hardly wait to see him fly it. I had it fairly well trimmed, but couldn't get enough line tension out of it for my scrawny little wrist to effectively square the beast. So why have it gathering dust when someone else can use it? Right?
So what are you going to build this winter?
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Will, your plane looks great! Cant wait to see it finished.
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Thanks Doug! How's the Texas contingent doing these days?
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the instrument on the engine mount what is it and where did you get it?
Those anglefinders can be found at most good tool supply stores, with many different brand names on them. Mine says Starrett, so it's more gotta be more accurate than most! LL~ Steve
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Hi Will,
You have a lot more patience than me when it comes to building biplanes. They look great, but I have difficulty building one wing, let alone two, for one plane. Plus the alignment. I do think they are very interesting though.
I have an SV-11 on the board that I promised a friend I would build next. Also a profile that I have been working on for wayyyy to long. Next up will be a semi scale.
You would think that being retired one would have more time for models, but for some reason it does not seem to work out that way. I now know what retired people meant when they would say they wondered how they ever had time me to go to work. Man do things ever pop up to do..........unbelievable.
I remember your first flights with the Panther at Muncie. Very exciting.........
Hope you get the Pawnee done for next summer. Now if you could get it to actually spray, that would be really cool... y1 y1 y1
Larry
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Hang on where it refers to that "time" thing! It only gets worse! I thought I was in the clear for a bit with the guitar shop, but now I have an apprentice starting a build here. (And another repair/setup just came in.) Sheesh.
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Had a bit of a time reprieve. so...have the cowl buck tacked in place and ready for final sanding before detaching and molding. Now I'm trying to decide whether to go with carbon fiber or fiberglass with CF reinforcement bands.
I'll probably go with the latter.
I also have the CF landing gear molded and ready for sanding to final shape/finish. I used a foam mold, planning on a one-off, but with the Saran wrap release agent it's good to go for any more I need to do. Thing is, where in the world would I need another 4" wide at the fuse' landing gear?!
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Looks great Will. I can't wait to see it finished.
Larry
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Will:
I am intrigued by your landing gear. Why did you step it down in the portions between the fuse and the wheels? I don't have the greatest amount of experience at fabricating carbon fiber landing gear, but it appears somewhat spindly in that area. I made such a gear for my Super Solution, but it was 1/4" thick and solid all the way through the fuse and down to the wheels. It was very solid but was probably one of the reasons the plane was too heavy. I like your idea about using styrofoam to make a template. I made mine out of sheet balsa. Wish I had discussed this with you before I built mine (albeit that was fifteen years ago).
Jim Fruit
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Hi Jim,
I have always made my CF gears waaaaay too stiff in the past, have ground a lot of expensive CF tow off after the finished gear was off the mold. The Pawnee gear is not like a Cub or Pacer gear, but simply two struts on the fuse' with an additional strut going to the bungees. I was determined to not make this guy too stiff. HA!!
I did it again! I've had to grind about a third of the CF off to get ANY flex at all out of this. The struts are, or rather, were 1/4 wide by 3/16 think and there was absolutely zero flex available. You would think after molding close to a dozen gears I would know better, but, weeeelll, no comment from me on that.
I have just a tiny bit of flex now with the 1/4" wide and about 1/8" think struts.
As a reference point, Jeff Traxler had a stunter that had CF gear on it that was less than 1/8" think and started about 1" wide at the top tapering to around 1/2" at the bottom. It was plenty strong enough. This stuff is amazing as to strength.
I'd go for it again if I were you, Jim. It's a lot of fun and, I think, very rewarding. The cowling is next, it will be glass with CF bands on the inside for stiffening.
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One thing I failed to mention on the CF gear, as it is right now it weighs exactly 2 ounces. It will lose some of that when I put the lightening holes in the mounting pad. That's a huge advantage with these gears, at least to my way of thinking - well worth the effort. As long as you use the right epoxy and post cure it properly, it's almost fool-proof.
I owe Dan Winship a huge debt of gratitude for his help years ago on what epoxy to use and the post curing procedures. THANKS DANNY!!!! #^ #^ y1 y1
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Will:
I notice that you say you used CF Tow. I used CF Strips. Did I do wrong? Is your Tow spread throughout or layered?
O.K., out with the secrets. What epoxy and what post-cure treatment? What sort of temperatures? What is your hat size?
Jim Fruit
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I find tow much easier to work with for most molding jobs for LG's. I don't think you did wrong, per se, but just put more work in than with the tow. I use the woven tube for tuned pipes, is the only way to fly on those.
I get my epoxy from Resin Services in Michigan, and use HTR-250 resin with HT-106-3 hardener. It's a 4 to 1 ratio, and is VERY sensitive to proper mix. I weigh it out on my electronic scale. stir 'til you're stir crazy. well, some of us already qualify for that, so let's just say, "Be sure it's thoroughly mixed."
Lay the gear up on the mold, let it cure at room temp. I like to do the final shaping and sanding before post curing it. Post cure at 150 degrees for an hour, turn the oven off and let it cool in the oven. That's it.
For tuned pipes and mufflers, I use HTR-350 with HT-8433 hardener, also a 4 to 1 ratio, and after it room cures, post cure it at:
150 for 1 hour
Then 250 for 1 hour,
Then 350 for 1 hour,
and finally at 450 for 1 hour.
Again, let it cool naturally in the oven after shutting it off.
I've yet to have a gear or pipe done this way fail after starting this over ten years ago.
My oven is a plywood box I made with insulated linings and four (4) 200 watt incandescent light bulbs in it and a meat thermometer sticking through a hole in the top. I have a temp control controlling the bulbs and set it by trial and error until I got the control knob marked fairly accurate for the different temps (I even have a little hatch in the end so I can cure guitar necks when I mold CF reinforcement rods alongside the truss rod slot.)
I love making as much of my ships as I can, and this has been really rewarding for me. I hope you try it and have a lot of fun with it.
(I nearly forgot - I wear adjustable hats because sometimes I need a haircut really bad and have to expand the thing.) LL~ LL~
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Well, I haven't been totally inactive on the Pawnee. Here's the rough fitted carbon fiber cowl taped in place. I need to do the final fitting and then decide what I want to do as far as securing it. At this point I think I'll go with button head screws since it's a fairly big unit. I want the whole thing removable, but with the option to only remove the hatch over the head/cylinder if that's all I need to get to.
After this is fitted and secured, the next step is to design and mold the tube muffler for the Evo 60. I thoroughly despise tongue mufflers because of the mess, so will build a tube type that won't weigh any more than the tongue muffler that came with the engine. That's what I did for my one LA46 and it works great.
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Sheesz Will, you have enough pieces that make it look like an airplane, ought to be ready to test fly by...New Years Day??? LL~ LL~ LL~
I really like this bird, its going to look great (already does) y1
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Aaaah, welll, New Year's day, Denny? Not quite. Maybe by summer? late spring? NEXT WEEK!!?? ~^ nO WAY, MY FRIEND.
But thank you for the kind words. Once I get the cowling mounted I can start sanding everything true and cover. I'm eager to cover it so have to hold back a bit on the adrenalin rush so I don't rush it for the finish.
I'm struggling with whether to make it a shiny finish or a scale one - the real one had zero shine except where my butt fit the seat. n~
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Whatever finish you decide, this is going to be a beautiful model.
Congrats on the great job!!
Marcus
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Thank you, Marcus, the encouragement is really appreciated!
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Will,
It's shaping up! Kudos!
You know the dusters are one of my favorite aircraft.
Looking forward to new news and more photos!
Keep up the good work!
Charles
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Hey Will, did you have a highly polished finish on your real duster? Anyway it seems guys go for the high polish finish. Look at the restored military aircraft you see in air shows. A lot different than when you watch a video of the old aircraft heading out for a mission. Been watching the Great Planes series on the military channel.
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Hi Doc,
As I said above, the only shiny spot on the whole airplane was where my sorry butt polished the seat! In fact, much of the underside of the rear section of the fuse' was stained yellow from the chemicals. I'm currently leaning toward a semi-gloss but will probably decide when I start throwing paint at it. I want to use two-part clear, but I don't want to bother mixing a flattener in it, so might see how I like it with the gloss of that, and if I don't like it, I'll sand it with 2000 grit and see how I like that. Then I'll have the option to buff the beast if I decide I liked the gloss better.
Hey, who said I'm not able to make up my mind in a flash? I resemble that remark. n~ n~ n~ :o
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Okay Y'all, the beast is finally ready to cover. Here are a few pictures so you can see I really have been working!
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A couple more.
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And finally, the "tiny" little kitten looks the 61" span ship over with a nose bump.
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It only looks better and better #^
Marcus
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Now if we only had a little Dynomite we can get you out of the basement to actually fly it y1 y1 y1 y1
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Now if we only had a little Dynomite we can get you out of the basement to actually fly it y1 y1 y1 y1
SMART MOUTH. '' n1 n~
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Let me know your thoughts on this type of construction? It seems much easier to get them straight, stiff and true this way if the weight comes out okay.
I don't know. It may affect the scale some and the tone might come out kinda trebly. :) Sure looks cool though.
Don't have any experience with those hinges but Bob McDonald has a very interesting appeoach using them. He puts a radius on the LE of the movable surface and a radius pocket or concave in the TE of the fixed surface. He cuts a notch for the pivot point in the movable surface so that the pivot point is in the center of the LE radius and the TE pocket. I guess the idea is that he gets a sealed hinge line or some aerodynamic advantage, don't know exactly what. He likes it though. Does it on the flaps and the elevators. Very slick.
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I did a similar thing with Klett hinges like Bob M is doing, it worked okay, but the dog was heavy and never developed into a good ship. Not the hinges' fault. I like the idea he's using, and although it's too late for this ship, I'll give it a try on the next one! Thanks
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Now if we only had a little Dynomite we can get you out of the basement to actually fly it y1 y1 y1 y1
LOL!
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Okay, okay you guys, I'm inventorying my fuel and ordering from Randy Rich this week! Quit pickin' on poor little me! :'( :'( :'(
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I covered the wing today with 21st Century film. Wow, what easy stuff to work with! It goes on three times as easy as anything I've used in the past. It's a bit heavier than the other films, I think, but the ease of application and the wrinkle-free wingtips are a real plus. We'll see how it holds up under the sun and flight loads, but I really like it. (Would you like to know how I REALLY feel about it?)
It isn't as shiny as the others, but for my Pawnee, that's perfect. It has the same shine as the full scale did and the same shade of white as the Randolph dope. (And shows a weave.)
I can hardly wait to do the fuse', but tail feathers come first. I also can't make up my mind as to whether or not I should take the covering all the way forward on the fuse' or stop where the full scale did. I don't like the idea of a separation line by the cockpit, and I don't like the idea of iron-on up on the fiberglass nose section.
My-oh-my, such world class decisions to make!!! ??? ???
Anybody have any long time experience with this stuff? Does it hold up? ??? ???
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Now, now Will, if we didn't like you so much we wouldn't pick on ya.
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Yeah, I know, but I gotta pick back, ya know. (Especially on Traxler!) We owe each other money, or guitar parts, or....? ~> n~ :!
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Covered the wings and fuse with the 21st Century film. I love the ease of working with it.
Here's a couple of pics at this point. Flaps & elevators come next.
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Hey, you just may have that airborne before I get my P-47 done.
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C'mon Doc, get at that '47! Springs a commin'!
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Yeah, I know, but I gotta pick back, ya know. (Especially on Traxler!) We owe each other money, or guitar parts, or....? ~> n~ :!
The price I pay trying to put a little "Sparkus under your Carcas" y1 y1
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Looking really cool Will. Cant wait to see it finished.
Rick Henry
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Hey Rick, thanks for the comment, it's great to find you among the living again!!!!!! Hope all is well with you, hope to see ya a couple of times this summer!! #^ #^
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Hi Brother Will,
I hope to get to see this one flying! It will look awesome, especially while going through the pattern!
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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well, with some strange cosmic thing happening to get me in gear again, I have the main frame ready for clear. I haven't even covered the flaps and elevators yet, but I won't be spraying them or the wing and horizontal stab. I like the appearance of the Century 21 fabric too much to disturb it. Looks just like the old Pawnee!
The fuse will get Nason clear on it, and it will be a couple of very light coats, just enough to fuel proof and seal it all. May even mount the Evo 60 next week! It ain't front row, probably back row, but what the heck, I been there before. LL~ LL~ LL~
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It ain't front row, probably back row, but what the heck, I been there before. LL~ LL~ LL~
Will,
You know I've been following your build, and I think you've done a great job here, especially with the cockpit frame and overall design, so, I see no reason to beat yourself up. To the contrary actually.
You know I have a thing for dusters. I have one in my bucket.
The model really looks great! Kudos!
Charles
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Thanks Charles. Ya know, a turbo Thrush done with electric would be a great subject. (Hint, hint)
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That's so cool.
Love the simple graphichs and the colors.
Marcus
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Thanks Marcus - the graphics are the same as the full scale one was. I left off a couple of really little markings, but other than that, it's the same.
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Finally sprung free a little free time to get back to the job. I hate the mess of tongue mufflers, almost refuse to run one, so I drilled the end of the Evo 60 one out and built a CF muffler on it. I haven't post cured it yet, but that comes tomorrow when I can be in the shop to monitor the oven temps.
I built one of these for my first LA46 and it's really light, quiet, and works great. (Did I say it's light?)
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Thanks Charles. Ya know, a turbo Thrush done with electric would be a great subject. (Hint, hint)
"Good" Will Hinton,
Nice effort with your muffler. Kudos.
The "Thrush."
It does have good moments. Could use an "off the shelf" wing, there are plenty out there to choose from.
So, "Good" Will, what are you saying? Are you looking forward to or possibly considering a Thrush for your next project?
It is a handsom aircraft to model.
Charles
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No Charles, you said you loved the ag planes so I was suggesting that you build one of the rascals! y1
My next project will likely be to finish my Tri-Pacer scale ship.
I finished the muffler last night, got the four hours of post curing done and weighed it this AM - 1 1/4 oz, or 36 grams, whichever way you wanna read the scales.
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No Charles, you said you loved the ag planes so I was suggesting that you build one of the rascals! y1
My next project will likely be to finish my Tri-Pacer scale ship.
I finished the muffler last night, got the four hours of post curing done and weighed it this AM - 1 1/4 oz, or 36 grams, whichever way you wanna read the scales.
"Good" Will Hinton,
I see, Thought you had interest in building one. ;D
BTW. Your Duster came out great!! Kudos!! Inspiration for sure. H^^
This is the only Duster I plan on building.
Please forgive me, I hope you don't think the photo os off topic.
Charles
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Oh no, not at all - I love the Ag-Cat! Always hoped I could upgrade to one, but alas, sigh. :'(
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Oh no, not at all - I love the Ag-Cat! Always hoped I could upgrade to one, but alas, sigh. :'(
"Good" Will Hinton,
You got me thinking about these Dusters, inspiration works, so I went back and reviewed your Thread.
Ya know, I totally forgot all about you having the actual aircraft, that absolutely must have been a joy to fly.
I also forgot you built the fuselage from scratch and used a wing that was just hanging around.
What I was hoping to see was a bit of detail on how you constructed the cockpit frame? That you had to draw. Correct? I'm also guessing you used thin ply in that frame structure?
Got any photos of that area that you havn't posted?
Nice cat.
I also noticed that your grandson plays baseball. Have I got a baseball story that's unbelivable and true.
Keep up the good work!!
Charles
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The frame structure for the cockpit area is framed up with 1/8 balsa, then when the clear windows were in, I overlaid those with 1/64 ply. The top, of course, is carved from a block and then hollowed extensively. I didn't/don't worry about strength much in a spot like that, as long as it's vibration resistant I'm happy.
I never draw my ships out except for maybe an outline sometimes. I just start tossing stuff together and hope for the best. seems to work for me, maybe not for others.
You're right, the Pawnee is a good plane to fly as long as you are willing to accept the couple of shortcomings it has. The vertical tail is very anemic and any direct crosswind above 15 knots is work. Of course, by then you've quit spraying anyway if you're knocking down "hot stuff'. (At least around here.) Plus, it really is a small airplane for the flat farms in northwest Ohio - some fields here are two to three tank fields with a Pawnee's 150 gallon tank. If it's hot, that drops fast. Foliar feed is very heavy and that was a super busy job for me, but the stuff is very heavy for the amount of gallons per acre and the Pawnee takes some nasty slow application speeds to get it done. But... still a good starter ship for a new operation.
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Everybody please set down so ya don't fall from fainting - the Pawnee is ready for flight trimming!!! At last.
660 squares, 66 ounces, about four ounces heavier than I predicted or wanted.
Donna did notice I don't have my AMA number on the wing yet! Oh well, after I fly it.
Here's some pictures of the beast.
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A couple more.
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Oh........My gosh!!
Makes me wanna build a duster!!
"Good." Send me a PM and I'll make up some AMA numbers for you. I don't see any "N" numbers?
Great job!! H^^
Charles
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Amazing!!
Loved that cockpit!!
Marcus
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Will,
I think it needs a spreader y1
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Ya know, Jeff, I contemplated that! I also thought about building a little air-driven pump for between the LG legs like the full scale. Guess I just got lazy on it. I also had planned on struts, but didn't like the need for attachment points at both the ends and the support strut halfway out. (Did I mention I just got lazy?)
Charles, I sent you a PM. Thanks for the offer! I'm just going to put the numbers on the outboard flap.
Thanks all for your kind comments; in spite of the time span I have really enjoyed this build and am pleased with the appearance as compared to the full scale ship.
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Is that your number on the fuselage sides or the number of the real plane?? By the way the plane looks great.
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Doc, that's the N number of the real one. I should look it up on the FAA site and see if it's still in Ohio.
Thanks foir the compliment, now if it'll just fly.
Okay, I looked it up and it has been deregistered. Wonder if the guy rolled it up in a little ball like he did the one before it? He wasn't so reliable from what i could tell.
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Well now that changes things. You need one of these painters that can put your number on so that you have to hold the plane just right to see it. I seen a custom car that had flames all over it until you got next to the car and they disappeared. Or put you AMA number inside the cowl and show it when asked where it is at. Other wise use Magic Marker for the number and remove with alcohol after the contest is over. S?P S?P
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I thought about the magic marker thing, Doc, but the wife would have killed me.
Ty, I've probably lost enough brain cells with the "hot stuff" entering my lungs without adding (or is it subtracting) more grief! LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ ::) ::) :o :'( ~^
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Brother Will,
Well, you beat me to the finish line as regards to finishing a model! And I think it came out great. Good Luck with trimming, it will look really good flying the pattern. That extra bit of realism in the model should help!
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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Thanks Coach! I hope those hands of yours are really starting to cook by now, Donna's are showing a little bit more feeling. Maybe we can pitch another tent in Muncie next nats? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Thanks Coach! I hope those hands of yours are really starting to cook by now, Donna's are showing a little bit more feeling. Maybe we can pitch another tent in Muncie next nats? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Thanks, Brother Will. Aaron and I just don't go together well with tents and cots........... LL~ LL~ LL~
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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and thunderstorms! LL~ LL~
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Nothin more fun than drying socks hanging from the rear view mirror with the motor idleing.Tent camping can be fun!!!!!!
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Except for the fact that the tent I loaned the Little's split in two during the storm and soaked EVERYTHING-including Bill & Aaron! Ya shoulda seen them when they showed up at our motor home! Donna and I still feel bad that our rotten tent caused them all that discomfort, but like the true gentlemen they are, we're still great friends!
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Except for the fact that the tent I loaned the Little's split in two during the storm and soaked EVERYTHING-including Bill & Aaron! Ya shoulda seen them when they showed up at our motor home! Donna and I still feel bad that our rotten tent caused them all that discomfort, but like the true gentlemen they are, we're still great friends!
Brother Will,
If that was the worst thing that I had ever endured, I would truly be blessed! No ones fault as far as I know. We got through it, thanks to the two of you and I am truly looking forward to seeing you in person again, soon.
Bill
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Dear Lazy Will,
Looks great! I know the feeling when a project gets done that has been taking waaaaay too long. See you in a few weeks.
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Thanks Crist! However, I am not able to attend the FCM this year unless something drastic happens here with the radiation and/or chemo treatments for Donna. I've left Allen in the lurch twice this summer!
The (very) slight possibility exists that i might be able to run down on Sunday just to kabitz, but I'm not counting on it at all.
Dang, but life can sure get in the way of neat stuff! HB~> HB~>
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Looks GREAT Will.
...& GOD BLESS Donna...
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Thanks Denny!! I'll miss kabitzing with you as well.
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I need to thank Charles at CFC Graphics publicly for the AMA numbers he sent for the Pawnee. He even sent an extra set!! Thank you Charles for exceptional service, this makes it much easier for me on the final act of the beast! Now, if I could just get up the energy/desire to fly the darned thing!!
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I will GLADLY drive out and launch y1 y1 y1 If we loose an "A" we can do lunch too LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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"If we loose an "A" we can do lunch too"
Errr, aaah, meaning? (What is an "A"?) How do we loose one? n~ :! ??? ??? ???
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Elementary Watson........Launch-a=LUNCH Since I figured it out looks like you're buyin' LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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"Good" Will Hinton,
Did you fly your outstanding Pawnee yet?
Charles
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Hi Charles,
No flights on the Pawnee this year, I'm afraid. However, with Donna recovering so wonderfully and life easing a bit toward "normal" (whatever THAT is for us) I'm hoping to re-light the fire next season. I still want to have to move up to expert soon, so that means I gotta burn some fuel. (NO Jeff, I don't need batteries in my life! Cool it.) LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Hey you still need batteries to light the plug, unless you have diesel on us. LL~ LL~ LL~
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n1 n1 R%%%% R%%%%