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Author Topic: Vertical CG?  (Read 1692 times)

Offline Glen Wearden

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Vertical CG?
« on: December 18, 2006, 09:51:27 AM »
I take my duties as Forum Resident Dummy quite seriously, so here goes.  I've been reading about vertical CG, but I'm not sure what is meant by that term.  I've learned from my mentor that if the plane is hung by the leadouts, and the fuselage hangs level, or maybe just a hair nose-down, the leadouts are in a good position to start from.  Is that vertical CG?  Glen
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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 09:59:32 AM »
It does not matter what people say about how to determine the CG of an aircraft. The only way to really find out is to fly it. There are many determining factors in CG. Don't listen to everyone (trust me on this). Hypothetical CG is a starting point so the when you test fly your model its close (so it does not become so unstable you hit the ground) when you start out. But the true determining factor is a culmination of the entirety. We are dealing with nature and no two planes are the same. If you weighed every piece and built them as close to humanly possible, same number of coats of paint, Balanced the same at the same wight. They would still fly differently.

If it was an exact science they wouldn't need test pilots. It would be build and fly right off the board. JMO
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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 10:28:18 AM »
I've learned from my mentor that if the plane is hung by the lead outs, and the fuselage hangs level, or maybe just a hair nose-down, the lead outs are in a good position to start from.  Is that vertical CG?  Glen

What you are doing there is finding line rake. Even on line rake it just a guess. You have to fly it to determine the correct angle for that plane and conditions. Everything I know is by trial and error. I have a good idea what works and what doesn't after building hundreds of planes. I have no formal training in engineering or Aerodynamics. But what I have found out is if a plane is Straight and "light" with less concentrated weight. it is easer to trim with less weight.
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Offline Glen Wearden

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 10:47:11 AM »
Thanks, Robert.  Your answers just bear out the fact that, at my stage in this wonderful hobby,  all I should do is build 'em as close to the plans and accompanying instructions as I can,  get 'em in the air, and have fun.  Thanks, again.    Glen
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Offline rustler

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 01:48:56 PM »
Lots of good info here, but I don't think your question has been answered Glen. The CG is situated at one exact point in the airplane. In addition to fore and aft position, it could also be high or low in the fus. Wherever it is, it will hang immediately below the leadouts. So if it is high in the fus it will make the plane hang outboard wing-low. If it is low in the fus it will hang wing-high.  This is vertical CG.
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »
To say what Rustler said, but differently.  It is not "vertical CG", but rather the vertical position, in flight,  of the CG in relation to the leadout guide.  Vertical CG is a convenient bit of jargon, but may be confusing.  Say you build a Sterling Yak 9 with a low wing and the controls in the wing.  You hang it from the leadouts and look at it from the front.  The airplane  is cocked over so the imaginary line from the leadout guide through the CG is vertical. 

Thus  the airplane will tend to fly around with the outside wing low.  The knowledgable builder will counteract this by building in exactly the  right amount of wash-in in the outside wing.  What I did was make a big ugly brass trim tab. ;)

Offline John Miller

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 03:30:33 PM »
A lot of well meaning, and good advice, but I suspect that your question, though answered, might need a little more clarification.

The method you describe, will indeed help you set the leadout fore and aft location, to a safe and good, approximately correct location.

All that is now needed to find the same kind of location for the vertical CG, is to look at the plane from the front, or back, while hanging on the leadouts.

The wing should hang straight up and down, perpendicular to the ground, when the vertical CG is close to correct. If you're looking from the front of the plane, and the wing is tilted to the right, ( towards the bottom of the plane) your leadouts are below the vertical CG. Of course tilted to the left, and your leadouts are above the vertical CG.

You can imagine some of the trim problems you could have when there's a lot of mismatch with the Vertical CG.

Bob Gialdini once explained a simple way to get pretty close when you design a model. He stated that there's a lot of math that can be used to determine the exact location of the CG, both vertical, and fore and aft. He also told me that for most of us, it's just too much to figure. Hwe then told me what he always did. He drew a scale outline of his design from the front onto stiff posterboard. He said to include everything, gear, stabs, wing, fuse. Cut it out as accurately as you can, and find the spot where it balances on a pin point. He said that this point will be as close as we need to be most of the time

Nowadays, I use the CAD system. I draw out a scale outline of both the front and side view, then have the computer find the center of mass. Close enough.
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 08:46:51 PM »
Glen and all the good buddies in on this one...

Lot of good thought-provoking stuff in here I'd like to try to boil down to what I consider the biggie:

Line pull affects the CG in all three dimensions.

Line pull has its own line of action, until it reaches the leadout guides at the tip of the inboard wing. Flexible cables can only pull inside their diameter, so the angle our flying lines make when they get to the guides is important. That direction - through the center of the lines plus leadouts - points at the CG.

If the CG is low, the model wants to bank up until the pull aims through the CG, or vice versa.

If the CG is ahead of or aft of that line of action for pull, the model wants to yaw until they DO line up.

"Vertical CG" relates only to where the line-pull force aims when it reaches the leadout guides - usually inside the wing thickness, so no longer affected by air drag - and the model will try to rotate to line the pull force up so it passes through the CG.

IM(not so)HO, anyway... Try it, you'll like it!

\BEST\LOU

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Vertical CG?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 09:52:07 PM »
Please see also posts in the ARF section regarding Brodak P-40 and Score ARF
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