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Author Topic: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie  (Read 1894 times)

Offline Mike Quinn

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Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« on: October 26, 2020, 10:12:45 AM »
Hi

I've inherited a Top Flite Nobler from an RC club mate who does a bit of CL.  He was going to bin it but knew I might be interested in adding to my collection of 3rd hand models as I'm just starting out in CL although lots of experience in FF and RC.

I've stripped all the monokote off it as it was falling off anyway, and repaired what needed repairing.  Covered the wings in medium polyspan and fuse/tail in 15u mylar and Japanese tissue.  It's just about ready to start priming.  Was going to spray KlassKote. 

Thing is it's 48oz (1380g) right now, ready to fly so to speak.  I reckon spray job might take it up to 52oz (not looking for a competition finish ... just a average club Sunday flier finish so to speak).

With an OS40 or 46 ... will this weight still be OK for a model to learn basic F2B schedule on?  Or as an option could I get away with a smaller motor at this weight?

Cheers

Mike

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 10:56:23 AM »
Hi

I've inherited a Top Flite Nobler from an RC club mate who does a bit of CL.  He was going to bin it but knew I might be interested in adding to my collection of 3rd hand models as I'm just starting out in CL although lots of experience in FF and RC.

I've stripped all the monokote off it as it was falling off anyway, and repaired what needed repairing.  Covered the wings in medium polyspan and fuse/tail in 15u mylar and Japanese tissue.  It's just about ready to start priming.  Was going to spray KlassKote. 

Thing is it's 48oz (1380g) right now, ready to fly so to speak.  I reckon spray job might take it up to 52oz (not looking for a competition finish ... just a average club Sunday flier finish so to speak).

With an OS40 or 46 ... will this weight still be OK for a model to learn basic F2B schedule on?  Or as an option could I get away with a smaller motor at this weight?

   Your finish weight seems about right. At this point, it is going to come out how it comes out.

     I would use a decently powerful engine, without knowing which OS 40/46 you are talking about (which one is in it now?) hard to say if it will be a good combination. I would not consider a 25 or similar. If you really know what you are doing, maybe, I flew 1000ish flights with a 48 ounce Nobler and a Fox 35, but drag will be your enemy here.

    This is not an ideal combination to learn to fly stunt, it may perform well enough, but is far too complicated and hard-to-repair. Still, since you have it, carry on.

    Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 01:46:03 PM »
Anyone that puts 1,000 flights on a Nobler with a Fox 35 disserves an award for something but that combination did win Worlds once and I confess to having endured the same, just not all with the Fox.

I am going to second Brett. IMHO the Green Box does not become a modern PA with more power.  I would go with something that is more powerful than the Fox 35 but a bit less than a 46LA.  A 40 would be my choice.  That will be enough to overcome the extra weight (The Nobler performed best at (38-42 Oz).  My weapon of choice "back in the day" was the McCoy 40 seconded by the OS35s.  A modern 25 puts out about the same power.  I would avoid the 40LA.  It is not the same engine as the 46LA and the 46 is really too much.  We have quite a few around here and they all fly too fast.  The Nobler is a tight corner slow ship.  5.5 is a fast lap. Speed it up and the flaps become a problem but then slow it down at 52oz and it will bite you.  I learned the pattern on a Green Box and Fox 35 but it was State of the Art when I did it.

Good luck, bottom line with the right power weight it will get you where you want to go but when you get there and have learned the pattern get into something current.  They fly very differently.

Ken

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 04:47:48 PM »
What Brett and Ken said.  I've had some success toning down a 46LA by using a smaller venturi, but then you still have that hunk of iron out front.

I know that a Magnum 36 XLS works pretty good on that weight of airplane, with an APC 11x4 or 11.5x4 (or a Thunder Tiger 11 x 4.5 -- but those are hard to come by these days).  I don't know if there's more currently available equivalents, though.  Note that it's a lot more engine than a Fox 35, just as a modern 3.6 liter V-6 is way more engine than a 1932 Ford flathead, even though they're the same size.
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Offline fred krueger

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 03:30:51 PM »
I used a Magnum 36XLS in mine.  Really good combination.

Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2020, 04:18:10 PM »
Hi

Thanks for the feedback. I assembled the model with an OS 46LA and 11x5 APC prop in order to check balance point.  With an E3030 silencer it came out slightly nose heavy at the 2 1/2"  recommended CG.

Replaced the flaps winch were pretty warped and super soft straight grain.

Then I thought it would be a good idea to follow some of the threads in here and swap out the control system.  Will use a suspended bellcrank (not the one shown), new flap and elevator horns, ball links and carbon rods etc. 

Are the recommended (in the manual) bellcrank/horn throws OK?

Thanks

Mike

Online Craig Beswick

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2020, 07:13:15 PM »
Hey Mike,
that is a lot of engine for a Top Flite ARF, but, as you are rebuilding/covering/painting the model it is likely to come out a lot heavier than original. Therefore the bigger engine will probably be okay. You could try a tongue muffler to lose a bit of nose weight. But, I do agree with Ken, an LA40 would be my suggestion. Or, God help me for mentioning it an Evolution 36! It was too much engine in my Nobler ARF prior to my crash but since the rebuild, recover and finishing, it handles beautifully with 5.1 second laps.

I put Tom Morris controls in mine. I don't recall if they came with horns or just the bellcrank, leadouts, pushrods and ball links. I am pretty sure it was standard 1" to 3/4" flap to elevator but I am not 100%. Russell from Okie Air took over from Tom, he is great to do business with so I am sure if you give him a call he will help you out with control throws.

Let us know how it is going and don't be shy to ask questions. So much good help and support here.

Craig
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2020, 12:03:37 AM »
Are the recommended (in the manual) bellcrank/horn throws OK?
I am not sure what the manual says, I don't have mine anymore.  Mine came stock 1:1.  I changed it to 2:3 after flying it and put a Morris set in.  That is a personal thing.  It flies fine at 1:1 but I don't like where the tangent is in a turn or corner so I change it.  3" crank is fine for this size plane.  I set it up to give me 30 degrees flap with 60 degrees rotation of the bellcrank then set the elevator linkage to give me 45 degrees elevator.  From what I can tell I use about half of that do do the pattern but we have some rather strange downdrafts here and  having some extra control helps.

I flew mine with an OS35s with great results then converted it to Electric with a 2826/12 which is a 46 equivalent.  It was overpowered at a decent RPM and didn't perform well at 5.1.  I went to longer lines and got it to a 5.5 but a little plane on long lines is just wrong.

Have fun - Ken
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Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2020, 01:37:45 AM »
Hi

I've actually got an RC OS 40FP I could put a CL venturi/NVA set up on.  I'm guessing this would be an option too?

Cheers

Mike

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2020, 01:13:05 PM »
Mike,

Keep looking at the weight.  A few comments:

--The CG will shift back when paint is added
--The OS 46LA is essentially the same weight as the OS 40LA (Listed as 9.6 and 9.5 oz. sans muffler)
--The OS 46LA is a more friendly motor for CL than the 40LA. I ran the 40 in a Noblarf myself without issues, but may have gotten lucky on all the setup details
--The OS 40FP (8.22 oz. plus 1.7 for the 762 muffler) can be made to work, but box stock many guys have trouble getting a stable run. Setup matters here, starting with the venturi size. If you want to run the FP, go watch a guy who sez he knows how to make them run and see if you agree
--The Fox .35 Stunt will fly a light Noblarf, but becomes a challenge in much of a breeze. I'm flying one like that right now.  I had to add considerable nose weight to make things happy.
--If you change mufflers around, you can expect the run characteristics to change. They may be better---or worse. So saving weight on the muffler is not a completely independent choice.
--I have had two igNoblarfs and both had 1:1 controls. They fly, or flew in the case of the OS powered one, better than I do. I found they turned quicker outsides than insides. I suspect that has more to do with my range of motion of my hand than the plane.

If you are still learning maneuvers my thought is to run whut you brung. There are a lot worse choices and combinations....

The Divot

Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2020, 11:54:44 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.  Will post some pics when closer to finish.

Thanks

Mike

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2020, 06:42:15 AM »
I might be the odd duck here, but I'd consider an  OS FP.40S. Generally speaking,  stock they're a bit "untamed" for stunt - but in a heavier-than-it-should-be model they can come into their own. They're light, really powerful, and IIRC, they interchange with the .40/.46 LA. Also easy to cool. I've not had problems with "runaway" with uniflow setup but have heard of them.

I have a Sig Mustang I built around 25 or so years ago. It's a tank but it's got an FP .40S in it that pulls it like a beast. Being heavy it wants to go fast but the motor is so strong I was able to lengthen the lines and get a semi-reasonable lap time.

Great windy/turbulent day machine. :)

Chuck
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2021, 07:42:14 PM »
LA46. User friendly. You can adjust power with smaller venturi, they will even run on the rich side. Use a free flowing chip muffler or gutted stock muffler. Stock mufflers can also run nice. FP40 or LA40, if you have someone around that can make it work. I looked back over a discussion like this about ARF Noblers powered by an FP 25 or LA25, runs similar. Lots of this and that, back and forth. Then a key number came up, line length. The Nobler was flying on 58' lines. Too short, not optimum. 61' or a bit longer, much better room to maneuver. You will need a 40 or 46 to keep that bird out on the lines when using optimum line length. Even if the Nobler comes in at a lower weight. We have 4 or 5, perhaps more, ARF Noblers doing their thing in our club. Modern 40 (FP or LA, modern, made after 1980) typical power. No 25s. Even the nicely assembled ones. Only ARF Nobler I saw with less power, that worked, was flown by a mythic modeler from Salem NJ area, built first 20 point NATS stunter. SKI Dombrowski (apologies for the probable misspelling). He used a Fox35 that broke from rich to lean whenever the nose pointed up. Short lines. No breeze. Slow laps. Dead calm day. He placed mid pack. Under powering or marginal power leaves little room for mistakes. When the wind blows, doubtful a typical flyer can do a respectable pattern. 

Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2021, 08:22:39 AM »
Hi

Just about finished and has come in at 52 oz but not unexpected.  I’m using an OS46LA and was wondering if you guys recommend going with the original RC type clunk tank or making one up?

Cheers

Mike

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2021, 09:27:00 AM »
Hi

Just about finished and has come in at 52 oz but not unexpected.  I’m using an OS46LA and was wondering if you guys recommend going with the original RC type clunk tank or making one up?

Cheers

Mike
I had a lot of trouble with the white one that came with the ARF.  I would get another clunk but measure before you buy because that fuselage is narrow.  If you can't then build one to fit.  The "Green Box" was designed around squeezing in a Veco 3.5oz tank.  You need at least 4 for the LA.  My LA (not on a Nobler) did the pattern with about 5 laps extra on 4 +-.
I used a 6oz clunk.

Be careful with getting nose heavy.  My Noblers had severe hinging problems if they were heavy AND nose heavy.  The plane was designed to top out around 40oz.  You may need a "wart" if you are going to be doing tight corners soon.  A word on priorities is warranted.  Hinging is only a real issue when you get to the competitive stage.  With the power of the 46 you are not going to fall out of the sky but once you get the hang of it, hinging will hamper your efforts to learn how to fly through a corner and lock into the flat.  It is always better to learn on something properly trimmed but no amount of trimming is ever going to turn a Nobler into a Shark.

Good Luck and keep keeping on - ken
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 09:49:01 AM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2021, 11:12:42 AM »
Hello


Thanks ... I guess you would run on silencer pressure or would you set the RC tank up as uniflow.  ’ll check out ‘hinging’ and ‘warts’ in the forums.

Cheers

Mike

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2021, 11:41:13 AM »
I've had pretty good luck with a plain ol' clunk tank and muffler pressure, at least with the 46LA on a 54 ounce profile Twister (yes -- way overweight).

I'd recommend starting with an APC 11.5 x 4; compare that with an APC 11 x 4 and an APC 12.25 x 3.75.  At that weight, you'll probably like the 11.5 x 4 best.  Whatever you do, spend some time swapping props and finding the best one -- every plane & engine has a prop that it's happiest with, and it's different each time.  So -- experiment.

Get some nylon net -- pantyhose is supposed to work; I prefer the fine mesh net they wrap flowers with.  Get some O-rings that are the right size to hold the net onto the venturi.  Go to the field with a little bag with O-rings and squares of net about 1 1/4".  You can tune the engine power with squares of net held over the venturi with O-rings -- basically, they're a quick and easy venturi restrictor.

You want to set the engine up so that it's in a wet two-stroke through the whole flight.  Without modifications that kill power, on that size plane, the 46LA does not want to go into a four stroke.  For a first cut with those props, I'd launch at around 9500 RPM.  If the plane "runs away" (suddenly goes into a mode where it's screaming fast and pulling your arm out of its socket), then pile on more mesh and lean it out.  If the plane doesn't have enough power in the overheads and the tops of maneuvers, remove mesh and richen it up.  If there's no happy medium on a 52 ounce plane, an 46LA, and one of those props, then something's wrong with the motor.

If you have someone to help you trim, follow their recommendations.  If not, search out Paul Walker's trim articles and follow them.  Speed is a good band-aid for poor trim, so start out flying fast (5, 5.2 second laps on 67' lines).  Line length is a good band-aid for a heavy plane -- I'd suggest starting at about 67 feet handle-to-canopy (i.e., about 65' eyelet-to-eyelet).

My goal as I trim a plane is to get the trim good enough that I can drop the speed and still retain control, and so the plane is mostly flying itself.  The slower the plane is, the more time you have to respond to it.  Ideally, you flog the trimming to the point where the plane mostly flies itself, and you're just suggesting a course of action via the handle.  If you're having to constantly issue course corrections just to keep it on the straight and level, you're doing something wrong.
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Offline katana

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2021, 12:16:11 PM »
  If the plane "runs away" (suddenly goes into a mode where it's screaming fast and pulling your arm out of its socket), then pile on more mesh and lean it out.  If the plane doesn't have enough power in the overheads and the tops of manoeuvres, remove mesh and richen it up.  If there's no happy medium on a 52 ounce plane, an 46LA, and one of those props, then something's wrong with the motor.

Isn't that backwards? By restricting the air going in, with the same needle position - it becomes RICHER. By removing restriction and allowing more air in, it becomes leaner! Not having enough power is never cured by making less LOL!

Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 12:36:29 PM »
Isn't that backwards? By restricting the air going in, with the same needle position - it becomes RICHER. By removing restriction and allowing more air in, it becomes leaner! Not having enough power is never cured by making less LOL!

It is assumed that the reader is smart enough to readjust the needle valve after every change of venturi size or restrictor mesh.

LOL.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2021, 12:47:18 PM »
Hello


Thanks ... I guess you would run on silencer pressure or would you set the RC tank up as uniflow.  ’ll check out ‘hinging’ and ‘warts’ in the forums.

Cheers

Mike
My apologies, sometimes we speak in stunt lingo and forget it is not a universal language.  Hinging in laymen's terms is when the outboard wing drops suddenly in a turn or corner when the wings are level otherwise in both upright and inverted.
A wart is a tab affixed to the flap that increases it's area near the tip thus providing additional lift to stop hinging.

Ken
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Offline Mike Quinn

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Re: Top Flite Nobler - second hand rebuild for CL newbie
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2021, 02:40:31 PM »
Haha ... no problem.  Perfectly happy to look things up on the forum.  The search works fine :)

Thanks for all the help guys.

 Mike


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