News:


  • April 28, 2024, 08:55:32 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: T/F Score Scratch and Dent another one 1/21/07  (Read 4104 times)

Offline Leester

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2530
T/F Score Scratch and Dent another one 1/21/07
« on: December 12, 2006, 05:23:43 PM »
Tower has a T/F Score ARF missing canopy and cowling for $71.50 reg. $119.99 you must be a Super Saver member.
Tower has another Score this one is 84.00 and is missing the flaps only.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 12:52:30 PM by Leester »
Leester
ama 830538

rogerpion

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 04:39:59 PM »
We don't need no steenkin' memberships!  I just scored that Score!  Less than 81 bucks shipped.

I think one of the things that makes the Score look a little weird is the nose slopes down in front, but since I have no cowl to worry about, and the engine mounts are not beams, I have the opportunity to raise the engine so any eventual cowl that I make will have a more straight top line.  Theoretically, how would raising the engine's thrust line affect the plane's performance?

Offline Leester

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2530
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2006, 02:57:58 PM »
Glad you got it. When I saw it they had for SS members only. Let us see the cowl you make and if repositioning the engine effects it. I saw somewhere a flyer made it open cockpit with just a windscreen, looked cool.  Good luck
Leester
ama 830538

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 04:40:25 PM »
We don't need no steenkin' memberships!  I just scored that Score!  Less than 81 bucks shipped.

I think one of the things that makes the Score look a little weird is the nose slopes down in front, but since I have no cowl to worry about, and the engine mounts are not beams, I have the opportunity to raise the engine so any eventual cowl that I make will have a more straight top line.  Theoretically, how would raising the engine's thrust line affect the plane's performance?

Could easily upset the vertical CG, I don't like the snub nose look either  but will live with it as my Score is really nothing more than a test bed. Someone posted it needs the wheel pants for the weight below the vertical CG to balance properly, raising the engine would make it worse. I did not install the wheel pants but have not checked the vertical CG to see if it is off, could be.

I installed my engine sideways which in effect would be the same as raising the engine. The only way to really tell is to hang it by the leadouts and see if the wing hangs vertical. If I don't get involved in something else tomorrow morning I will check mine and see how close it is.

One problem you might have trying to raise the engine is getting the blind nuts installed below the tank floor. You will see what I am talking about when you get it. If I was going that far I would probably replace the molded top from the canopy forward with a block and start carving.

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2006, 04:54:12 AM »
Not real good news, I checked the vertical CG on my Score this morning and I had to hang 7 ounces on the wheels in order to get the wing vertical. I really should have LOWERED the engine but not worth doing it now.

This will tend to make the outboard wing fly low assuming the flaps and wing are straight. It can somewhat be compensated for with a flap tweak but not really the best solution, see the P-40 thread.

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2006, 11:05:07 PM »
Hi Bob:

I'm curious how you checked the vertical CG. I don't get how it could be evaluated by hanging the model from the leadouts. I personally think this is more of a theoretical abstract to be debated on forums like this than a real factor in trimming a model, except maybe at the extremes.

Changing the thrust line is another matter altogether. I would really advise the new Score buyer against monkeying with it for aesthetic "improvement." I think it looks a little odd too but that is mostly because we have been raised to think a "real" model has to look like a Nobler or a P-51 with the high prop hub. The Score has a thrust line close to the wing centerline and the location of the stab is presumably calculated to be in balance with the thrust and drag forces of the design as a whole. Plus, moving the prop hub location means a new cowl and a lot of other changes, so why get an ARF in the first place? Change out the control system and leave it at that, I would (and do) say. This is a very capable design that has a lot of potential as is, aerodynamically at least.

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2006, 07:09:00 AM »
Well Mike everyone is entitled to an opinion, I somewhat agree that ARF's are what they are. I've put together 4, all for a specific purpose centering around either engine testing or trying something that wasn't worth the time to build and finish a kit. Funny part is they all flew great once I had them flight trimmed, most even better than some of the many airplanes I have built from scratch or kits.

I do have a different opinion on the importance of the vertical CG, the leadouts need to be located at the vertical CG or the airplane will not fly with the wings level, again assuming the wings are straight. Most designers take this into consideration as I am sure the designer of the Score did.

In my case I rotated the engine moving the weight of everything above the engines centerline up. This obviously changed the vertical CG which my leadout check showed. If you can't accept the fact that hanging an airplane from the leadouts is a viable and obvious way to check the vertical CG I'm not going to try to change your thinking.

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2006, 06:48:48 PM »
Not trying to start an argument here Bob; I have no doubt that side-mounting your big Saito changed the vertical CG from what the designer anticipated, as would deleting the largish wheel pants. Question now is, how and to what degree has it changed and what effect on the flight characteristics can be expected? I asked about your method of determining the VCG because I cannot think of a way to suspend the model that will allow it to be located reliably.

I too think of ARFs as test beds and learning tools. Trouble is the darned airplane only "knows" forces applied around moments and centers of lift, drag and gravity and, not knowing it is only an ARF, proceeds to fly just fine. Plus, they are a Godsend for not-yet-retired guys with jobs and families.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2006, 08:28:19 PM »
I would like to start my comments with a disclaimer. I don't have a well known reputation in the stunt community i.e. no name flier however I talk to a great many people and absorb information well. I spoke on this subject to a great many people not the least of whom was Pat Johnston who has designed and built many planes. This topic was of great importance to me because I am in the middle of designing and building a semi scale stunter based on the bf 109. The low wing placement on the prototype leads to problems with the vertical cg in flight. I have decided to add dihedral to the wings in order to deal correctly with this problem. The real issue with the vertical cg placement is that as stated before, if the weight mass is above the leadout position, the airplane will fly wing low while upright, suggestions indicate that by using a tab or adjustable "aileron" you can correct this. This is true for upright flight. In a perfect flight where there is NO speed variation this may work. however this tab adjustment will be by design speed sensitive and therefore introduce other trim issues as our planes do speed up and slow down throughout the pattern. The correct way to offset this is to get the leadout position in the correct relationship to the vertical cg, or for understanding, the center of mass. To check for this relationship in an assembled airframe that is ready to fly, hang the airplane from the leadouts in a door jamb, orIEnt the airframe so that it is "flying" through the door, ie from one room to the other. Assuming that your door jamb is truly plumb the distance from the wingtip to the jamb ideally should be the same on both wintips. To understand this phenomenon and how it affects flight, imagine a bucket of water on the end of your lines. If you hold it by the handle it will swing straight out in line with your lines or arm. If you hold it by the edge of the bucket, it will instead find its own center so that the mass is evenly divided above and below the lines. This is the problem with vertical cg issues. As has been discussed before, the bellcrank does not care where it is, its all about where the leadouts are. Most of these discussions center around fore and aft issues. However the same is true in relationship to the vertical cg. If you have ever seen a "spirit of St. Louis" model fly control line, you will note that there is a hanger off the wingtip to locate the lines below the wing. This is a dramatic illustration of how to correct for vertical cg location. In my case, and Al Rabe, and Pat Johnston the solution is to raise the wingtip up to more closely approximate the center of mass in flight. Hence by using dihedral we move the wintip and more importantly the leadouts up into a more correct location. Al Rabe could more correctly describe it than I have perhaps but that is my understanding. By moving the engine vertically away from the designed and flight tested location, we have altered the vertical cg location and must somehow accomidate for this.The same holds true for rotating and engine that was designed inverted into an upright position or outward position ie as in a profile. Understandably there are more than one way to skin a cat but this is my take on it. I don't like using aerodynamic bandaids to fix a mechanical problem. If you would like to read more, there is some additional  posts in the ARF section under the two posts regarding the Brodak P-40 and some things people have observed and dealt with regarding it. It was designed as a low wing with dihedral, however in production it became a low wing without dihedral and people are moving the wing, or adding dihedral to correct this issue.

I am open to any and all comments on my stance please feel free!
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9941
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2006, 10:38:08 PM »
It might not be all that difficult to raise the LO guide in the tip enough to fix the VCG problem, if you find one. FWIW, the first PW-51 Mustang had an adjustable LO guide that was adjustable vertically as well as fore/aft. Wish I had a picture of how that was done. I suspect the normal slider plate was mounted on vertical slider pieces. The exit slot might need some fixin', but it was there, if needed. 
 :!  Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2006, 11:06:25 PM »
Steve,
that is a very good point, and a perspective I had not even considered! The incorporating of an adjustable vertical movement in the leadouts does allow that tweaking after the plane is built and with our typically thick wing sections shouldnt be to hard to accomidate enough movement for considerable adjustment since typically we are talking about 5/8 (on the P-40) to one inch max allowance.It does however validate the importance of vertical CG awareness since this was one of the preeminant PA pilots designs.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2006, 11:32:10 PM »
Can we back up and relocate this thread from about 10 entries ago? This is getting to be kind of an interesting "design" discussion that should be somewhere else. I doubt many people are following "Score scratch and dent" at this point.

About VCG, I thought the importance is to pitch stability, not to roll or as a counter to centripedal/cetrifugal force. I get that we need to avoid the "Spirit of St. Louis" leadout thing, but what about with a conventional purpose-designed modern stunter? As in Bob's example, what can we expect to happen when the VCG is changed? What aspect of flight is affected, and why?

Any of you guys with engineering degrees or a few Walker Cups on the mantle have the answer?

Online Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6059
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2007, 12:16:06 PM »
I just have one thing to say about the TF Score ARF. It is not pleasing to my eyes.
Beauty is in the eye of the handle holder.
 <= LL~
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2007, 03:17:34 PM »
Don't care for the looks either but it doesn't matter.. It is a verry good stunt ship that could teach many just how good a well built airplane can fly.


Offline Mike Scholtes

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2007, 03:49:32 PM »
Whoa, Nellie! I feel I need to step in to defend the Score's appearance. First off, if one thinks they are unattractive I guess one can simply not buy a Score; that's why I don't have a Ferrari. Well, one reason anyway. Second, the looks can be quickly improved by peeling off a lot of the stick-on trim like the fuselage stripes and red curlicues on the wings. Residue comes off easily with lacquer thinner. Third, I happen to LIKE how it looks, especially in the air: like a real, serious F2B model! It flies great and is capable of far more than I am at the moment (hope springs eternal).

Note to Bob: mine is flying better with the CG at 4" behind LE at root. How's your sidewinder Saito working out? That engine sounds like the cat's meow for this model.


Online Joe Gilbert

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 515
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2007, 06:05:44 PM »
Mike Bob let me fly that old sidewinder today and WOW what a tractor. This airplane could be dangerous in good hands. Lots of potential.
Joe Gilbert

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2007, 06:10:11 PM »
Note to Bob: mine is flying better with the CG at 4" behind LE at root. How's your sidewinder Saito working out? That engine sounds like the cat's meow for this model.

Put two flights on it today and Joe Gilbert flew it once.. getting better all the time. Not sure exactly where the CG is, didn't check it after installing the cowl and adding a Brodak spinner but am sure it is forward of what the instructions call for. It was 1/4 inch ahead before adding the cowl and spinner which added about 2 ounces to the nose. Would guess it's 1/2 to 3/4 forward as it sits. It flys much better than it did but still have a few trimming issues. Need to drop the elevator a little further, remove some tip weight and move the leadouts forward a tad. Even at that Joe put in a pattern I would have been happy with at any contest.

The Saito is still running great, it was a tad fast in this cold thick air, really need to make an adjustable venturi like I did for the 40a and just dial in the power needed for the present conditions. All in all it's really a great combination.

This is pretty much a plug-n-play package of off-the-shelf componets costing around $300.00 that can be competitive well into Expert.

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2007, 07:10:49 AM »
 LL~  finally found a use for those old hard rubber wheels that came with the 70's Sterling kits (Ringmaster & Skylark). They weigh over an once each so I made brass bushings and stuck them on the Score. This will add at least two ounces below the vertical CG  LL~

Just checked the CG on my Score so I could reset the leadouts per LineIII, it's only 3 1/2 inches from the leading edge and flys fine. I did go to an inch narrower handle spacing which helped. As it sits with the original handle spacing it's still way too sensitave.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 07:34:39 AM by Bob Reeves »

Offline Leester

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2530
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent another one 1/21/07
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2007, 12:53:41 PM »
bump
Leester
ama 830538

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent another one 1/21/07
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2007, 03:05:46 PM »
Tower has a T/F Score ARF missing canopy and cowling for $71.50 reg. $119.99 you must be a Super Saver member.
Tower has another Score this one is 84.00 and is missing the flaps only.

Bet I know where the flaps went.. One of our club members Tom Martin got one with really bad warped flaps, he called they sent him another set of flaps. Can't believe they don't save it for replacement parts. Guess it's cheaper just to open another one than keep track of the parts.

Offline Leester

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2530
Re: T/F Score Scratch and Dent another one 1/21/07
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2007, 05:23:13 PM »
36.00 off is a good deal, you can make alot of flaps for that.
Leester
ama 830538


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here