News:


  • May 07, 2024, 11:27:37 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: T Rex flight report  (Read 5766 times)

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
T Rex flight report
« on: March 09, 2010, 07:46:49 PM »
 A couple of weeks ago I took my ARF T-Rex out for its first flight session, and I wanted to share some thoughts and observations and advice...

  My T-Rex, the one from the "T-Rex progress thread" on Stunt Hangar, was the absolute best flying airplane I had ever flown, better than my current Time Machine, better than a host of other people's planes I have flown (including some top 20 and top 5 Nats planes).  It was also the only plane I had ever encountered that was pretty close to "flying off the board", to the point that its second flight was a full pattern that would have fared quite well on a lot of Southeast contest scoreboards

It was the best flying plane I ever had, for 2 and 1/2 flights.  It disintegrated in an outside square on flight number three, ending its career in a crumpled heap of contest balsa and ultracote.

Ranting about how bummed I am that my plane fell apart is not the purpose of this post though.  I feel that this design has too much promise to be kept down by the issues of Chinese wood selection or quality control and I think events will bear me out over the next year or two, as more people see a T-Rex fly for themselves.  I did want to share some thoughts on how mine flew, how it failed, and what can be done to rectify the structural issue.

Obviously, there is little new under the sun as far as stunt aerodynamics and design goes, and frankly, it doesn't really matter how exactly Brad Walker arrived at the numbers and configuration, but, as he would say, “I'm here to tell you” that it works.  My example had brutally hard corners that could be entered and exited with perfect control, instant locking onto the flats, and yet executed rounds with uncanny ease.  The round loops felt like they only required two inputs, one to enter the maneuver and another to return to level flight, with the plane almost saying "ok, I'll take over from here" as you entered the maneuver and giving you back the controls as it exited.  The overheads were a joy to execute and the big jug style fuselage presented just awesome as you watched the ship go through its paces.  This may be the very first truly competitive mass produced ARF in a .60 size.  My only squawks about flying characteristics were that I felt that the vertical fin area was a tiny bit too small (I know, somewhere out there Howard Rush is probably laughing right now) it made me think that it needed a little dorsal strake like the later marks of the P-47 had, just something to help a little bit with the larger props.  When I talked about this with Brad, we had a good natured argument about it and he pointed out (in fairness) that it was more likely the fact that the leadouts were not perfect yet, and in this case I defer to the designer.  Another flight issue I have noted, not just in mine, but in all four different T-Rex’s I have flown to date, is that every one of them can be driven into a stall, especially in an inside pullout where you have the 1 g of gravity added to the normal pull for a corner.  Brad’s extensive testing with his 67 ounce example did not find this problem, and I am guessing that the much lighter production versions are allowing the wing or flap to flex to the point of spilling air through the flap hinge gap.  I didn’t tape the hinge line on mine, probably the one important bench trimming thing I left out.  We are going to tape one of the other T-Rex’s in the club and see if it fixes the stalls-I’m betting it does.  I might be clear here as well that these are slight stalls, and not on every corner-maybe one detectable stall per flight, just the sort of random funny that taping usually eliminates.  I’ve been trying to get some good in flight photos to see what the wing is doing, but so far have not seen anything exciting, even on film covered wings.  The flex is detectable by some skin wrinkling, but total deflection of the wing seems much less than say, a typical I beam ship.

The achillies heel (of the ARF version) is the fuselage just at the trailing edge of the wing.  To my knowledge, there have been two failures of the fuselage where the top sheeting just behind the canopy fails under tension in an outside square, allowing the entire fuselage to split in half and making the airplane impossible to control.  The picture I attached of mine shows exactly where the failure occurred.  My buddy Eric down in Florida lost his T-Rex ARF to the exact same failure a few weeks before mine.  We thought maybe his was a fluke (he lost his in about 30 flights), but when mine failed in three flights it pretty much confirmed at least some of the ARFs had issues.  As Brad has commented on in some of the T-Rex threads, the Chinese evidentially discovered the mother lode of contest wood and started putting it in T-Rex’s, circumventing Brad’s elegant design that is made to give maximum lightness for the usual heavy wood the Chinese use.  The use of contest wood in the critical upper skin, combined with the film finish of the ARF, is enough that some will fail.  (some, but not all-one of my fellow club members has a T-Rex ARF that we abuse like a red headed stepchild, and through 91 flights it showed not the slightest structural issue anywhere.)

The short answer for the structural issue is to buy an ARC version, or strip off the covering of an ARF and redo it.  My next T-Rex will be an ARC for the simple reason that I might want to fly it at the Nats some time, and under the current rules the ARC is legal, the stripped ARF is not.  Two of the local T-Rex’s are ARC, covered in .5 oz glass cloth and epoxy on the fuselages and film on the wings, they have been flying with Saito and PA power for several weeks now without the slightest issue.  My next T-Rex will use the glass on the fuselage, and silkspan on the wings-while the extra wing rigidity may not really be needed, it certainly can’t hurt.

For the person with an ARF, reinforcement on the inside of the fuselage upper skin with glass cloth and CA or epoxy would be highly recommended -why take a chance when you have a pretty expensive engine up front.  In addition, some of the other recent T-Rex construction threads have some good tricks for extending the fuselage doublers past the trailing edge of the wing which will add greatly to the strength.  If your ARF is already completed, you might consider removing the covering from the top of the fuselage from the back of the canopy to about three inches further back and glass the wood at that point, then replace the covering.  It may not look pretty, but it will look worse if the fuselage lets go, trust me.  Again, the picture of mine shows exactly where the fuselage fails and where reinforcement will do the most good.

Finally, lets hope this thread can be an exchange for better ways to address this and any other problems that might arise with the T-Rex.  I have contacted both the manufacturer and the designer for this plane, and I know they will have engineering improvements for later generations of T-Rex’s down the line.  In the meantime, we can debrief on our own experiences here on the forum so that losses of planes and engines are minimized.  After all, as good as these things fly, you’ll want yours to hold together for a long time!

Steve


PS, I’m sorry for the rambling nature of this post, but its hard to write with a 2 year old climbing all over you.  I hope some find this helpful.
 
Steve

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 05:28:03 AM »
Just to be clear, all T-Rex's leaving Brodaks from today on will be modified to include the aft 1/16" ply doubler extensions behind the trailing edge of the wing.  Just to be sure!!!!  John is having the parts made and installed at his place by his local people.

All future runs of the T-Rex will have the doublers extended two inches behind the trailing edge of the wing, as in typical stunt design.  Somehow I missed that missing feature in my prototype units (which obviously experienced no problems), but these initial units were made from much beefier balsa.

If you have an existing T-Rex that was already built, remember, we have only had two failures out of several planes being flown, and those were from guys doing super tight Expert level patterns.  If you have YET to build yours, MAKE THE MODIFICATION!!!  It will only take a few minutes.

All in all, I think Steve has done a wonderful job explaining the issue that we have experienced, and we are making the effort to fix.  I do think that people, once they give the plane a chance may find, as Steve did, that it will fly equal to or out-fly anything around.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 05:43:22 AM »
We could not stall Joe Gilbert's no matter how hard we tried, and Joe flies hard.   Harder than anyone around here, including Doug, RO or Bill Wilson.

Again, I would point to the leadouts...  I do not think most people are actually taking the time to accurately measure the CG location, and then adjusting the leadouts 1" behind that location.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Larry Fulwider

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 01:15:49 PM »
  . . .  PS, I’m sorry for the rambling nature of this post, but its hard to write with a 2 year old climbing all over you.  I hope some find this helpful.
 

Very clear, dispassionate, easy to understand summary. If all issues were that well documented, the modeling world would be a better place.  y1

Keep that 2 year old handy when you're writing stuff  H^^

       Larry Fulwider

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22776
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 11:54:54 AM »
I agree with Larry F.    If more modelers would document their failures as to cause and fix, would make for a lot better reading.  Thanks for the report on the T-Rex. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 01:10:21 PM »
If there is thanks to be issued, it should go to John B and Bradley, who were willing to have the facts discussed in an open and honest manner, instead of covered up.  They are doing the best they can to bring out a great flying airplane-as cheaply as possible.  It doesn't always go perfectly, but they keep plugging away to get it just right.  Flying the ARF proved to me that the time and effort to work up an ARC is justified, so really my ARF adventure cannot be described as a failure.
Steve

Eric Viglione

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 01:13:10 PM »
Yup, I'm the Florida guy that lost his T-Rex.

Steve did an excellent job laying out the situation, so I won't clutter the airwaves with much more than a ditto, me too. I was probably the first and single data point for a while, and had to assume it was a fluke until proven otherwise. Mine failed at the exact same point, in a hard outside square. It "popped" in tension loud enough that people heard it and looked up to see it fold before it went into the ground. On inspection, the wood where it let go was more like solidified mashed potato than balsa. No real grain to it at all. Maybe 4 pound sheet?

I had told Steve of my failure while he was still building his. Now with 2 data points it's no longer a fluke. Make the suggested modification! Then go enjoy an outstanding airplane.


EricV


Offline Dick Pacini

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 02:07:47 PM »
Hats off to both of these gentlemen for presenting their story of airframe failure without going off on a rant.  This type of critique often gets positive attention and results in a quicker resolution.  It is refreshing to see this. 

A better product will be available to all due to their objective reporting. H^^
AMA 62221

Once, twice, three times a lady.  Four times and she does it for a living.  "You want me on that wall.  You need me on that wall."

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 06:41:41 AM »
Steve and Eric are both close friends of mine, we talk multiple times a week.  They were in the loop for the entire T-Rex process.

Unfortunately for me (and them) they both had failures, and they are ONLY TWO FAILURES that I know of...  It seems being a friend of mine puts your TR in jeopardy!!!  I was SICK to hear of the failures, and especially after the glowing flight reports...  I was hoping both would be able to take the beasts around and show them off a bit, but alas they have other stunt ship projects that will now come first.

I just want everyone to know that I take my job of designer very seriously.  I also take the blame.  After 15 years as a design engineer I have learned to not try to escape my own accountability.  If the thing is breaking, I did not anticipate every scenario.

Interestingly, this is why I am currently questioning if I want to be an engineer anymore.  It has made into a very "cynical" person outside my job (and I was NOT that way before I was trained to be that way).  Being an engineer has made me into a Missouri mule (you have to "show me").  I am tired of being the bearer of the "bad news" to people who do not think things through.  Engineers cannot afford to just go off on a flight of fancy, they have to be RIGHT...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Dick Pacini

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1629
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 06:54:41 AM »
Brad, it doesn't sound like a design flaw, but more like a material problem.  This often is the case when manufacturing gets the project and runs with it.  The best engineered product in the world can be compromised if material specs are not followed.  It does sound like the added reinforcements will prevent this fluke from happening again.

You did a great job on this airplane and I hope to own one before too long.
AMA 62221

Once, twice, three times a lady.  Four times and she does it for a living.  "You want me on that wall.  You need me on that wall."

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 08:18:34 AM »
Brad, it doesn't sound like a design flaw, but more like a material problem.  This often is the case when manufacturing gets the project and runs with it.  The best engineered product in the world can be compromised if material specs are not followed.  It does sound like the added reinforcements will prevent this fluke from happening again.

You did a great job on this airplane and I hope to own one before too long.

Well, to be fair, there was no spec for the fuselage stringers.  I never expected in a million years we would get wood this light...

I do think the extended doublers will fix the problems...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Warren Wagner

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 275
  • Bradenton, FL
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 10:27:52 AM »
So often, there is a positive side to a negative event.  The 'implosion' of Eric's "T-Rex" occurred while I was present, and I was able to benefit from Eric's postmortem report on the "cause of death".  It was pretty clear as to where the weakness in the construction existed, and the steps to overcome this seemed pretty simple and straight forward.  Fortunately, my "T-Rex" was still on the bench, and the wing had not been installed yet, so I was able to make the following modifications.

A mirror copy of the rear of the fuselage plywood doubler was made, and inserted where the "X" is in the photo, using a liberal amount of epoxy, to include the blind area at the rear of the fuselage former.

The belly pan is an integral portion of the fuselage construction, and is not just there to cover up the bottom of the wing installation.   Therefore, it's important to the strength of the fuselage, that the belly pan joints all fit well, that the excess Ultracote is trimmed back, and that a substantial glue joint is created between the pan and the wing, and the pan and both of the fuselage formers. 

A PA61 and pipe is installed in my "Rex", and it's only had about 8, cautious trim flights so far, so it has not been subjected to the same "forces" that are applied by my two expert-class friends.....though that will happen shortly.  I do have Eric availabe to "stress test" it, if I feel that is needed.  :-)  I don't expect any problems, thanks to the willingness of my fellow modelers to share their experiences, be them good or bad.

Brad....I hope this modification is what you had in mind.   If not, please feel free to correct, modify, or add to what I've said.

Cheers.

Warren Wagner
Bradenton, FL
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 05:36:15 PM by Warren Wagner »
Warren Wagner
AMA 1385

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 11:06:48 AM »
I think thats the same fix Bradley is talking about until the new batches of T-Rex's show up with the built-in engineering improvements.  I do wonder, though, as to whether or not the loads will "see" the extra doubler as a continous piece of wood, or whether the stress will see the joint at the former instead and "ignore" the extra piece of wood.  Not being an engineer, I don't know.  Brad made a compelling argument to me the other day that the fuselage should be viewed as a box sectioned  beam, not a tubular monocoque as I envisioned it.  Thats why I originally imagined reinforcing the skin over the rear of the fuselage as the fix, thinking the loads were borne by the balsa skin.  Brad's engineering experience told him that the sides of the fuselage are the box sides of the beam, as it were, and that the loads are principally borne there vs the upper and lower skin.  In this case I defer to Brad's background, and I know the ultimate fix is to extend the fuselage doublers under the former so that it is indeed one single piece of wood all the way past the wing.
Steve

Willis Swindell

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 12:05:46 PM »
This is not a problem just for the T-ex. I stand up to start my engines and the wings leading edge next to the fuselage catches hell from fingers holding the plane. I glued 1/16 balsa sheets on the inside of the second leading edge rib bay top and bottom inboard and outboard helps make the leading edge finger proof. It helps light balsa leading edge planking tremendous.  Like double planking.
Willis
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 09:44:32 AM by Willis Swindell »

Offline Elwyn Aud

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1301
    • Inferalandings Photo Page
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 10:15:42 PM »
This must be the weak spot being talked about. This one made it back down and was repaired.

Offline Douglas Ames

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1299
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 11:41:05 PM »
This must be the weak spot being talked about. This one made it back down and was repaired.

Elwyn- I've been biting my tounge about that photo...I figured Joe Gilbert would chime in when he gets the chance. He did an outstanding job of "saving" that T-Rex! Simple fix. -external doubler around the exhaust outlet.

About the aft retro-fit doubler...I agree the doubler should be one piece under the former, but since that's not practical for a pre-built ARF why not tie the fore/aft doublers together with a short length of 1/4 stick balsa through the former?
...or at least triangle stock on the fwd and aft edges of the former.
Gotta git me one of these Big Orange Suckers' someday!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 11:26:37 AM by Douglas Ames »
AMA 656546

If you do a little bit every day it will get done, or you can do it tomorrow.

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2010, 07:31:59 AM »
This must be the weak spot being talked about. This one made it back down and was repaired.

Bad glue joint.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2010, 10:00:36 AM »
If you look carefully at the picture you will see the separation occurred in the belly pan joint. The strength issue does not lie in the fuselage above the joint. It lies in making a solid structural joint on the bottom of the wing to tie the belly pan to the front and aft sections of the fuselage, not just glueing it onto the bottom of the wing. In my build thread on teh electric forum on the T-Rex I explained how to make a structural epoxy fillet to create this type of joint. The joint as it comes in the kits is not accurate enough to create a structurally sound joint. Many arf's CL and RC share this issue. Two ways of addressing the same issue.

bob branch

Offline Ron Merrill

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 278
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2010, 01:49:35 PM »
Bob, i must be going blind, i couldn't find your article. Please help. #^ Ron.

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2010, 02:55:24 PM »
Never seen a belly pan on any ARF that fit. I carefully sand a balsa filler to place in the gap and glue it in with epoxy. You can just fill it with epoxy or a mixture of epoxy and a filler but in any case it needs to be a structural part of the fuselage.

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2010, 06:51:50 PM »
Ron

Here is the link to the build thread I did on an Electric T-Rex but all the assembly info applies no mater what the power system on this plane. http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=14349.0

If you look at any of the Brodak ARF's and indeed most CL arf's the fit of the belly pan is not what we would like it to be. You can barely get an adequate joint for any kind of glue to hold and most are held on really by gluing them to the wing like we do in RC. The problem is that there is no remaining structural carry thru for loads on the bottom of the fuselage. If you do not get a good joint between the front fuse and aft fuse with the belly pan you wind up with only the structure at the top of the fuse carrying the entire load. When you add a tuned pipe tunnel now you have lost more structure and if you do not put a good solid floor in the pipe tunnel ... well there just ain't nothing taking the tensile loads on the bottom. In a model with a beefy top block you can get away with it. But the T-Rex is all light construction with no blocks. So you need a tensile load carrier on the bottom. This can be achieved if you get a good complete joint at the front and rear of the belly pan. I use a structural epoxy fillet. There are a number of fillers you can mix into epoxy to create this kind of materials, flox, microfibers, sawdust... but some things are definitely not included and that includes microballons and mircrospheres and plain epoxy. The filleting blends folks use on fillets will not work. The materials are mostly microspheres. They are not structural.

My preferred material is WEST system microfiber filler # 403 because it is thixotropic.... it does not slump when used. It stays where you put it and in the shape you put in on until pressure is added then it conforms to the space and then it does not run. WEST System #405 filleting blend adhesive filler and #406 colloidal silica thickener also work well. You do not want to use something like their #410 microlight fairing filler. This is a nonstructural fillet mix. Nice for aesthetic fillets but not structural even if it is mixed in epoxy. I use these materials in any 30 minute or longer setting epoxy. If you are used to the stuff and only working a small amount 5 min epoxy will work. But all these materials increase the surface are for the epoxy components to react on. This creates more heat and the mix kicks off much faster. In the case of 5 minute epoxy, you may barely get it mixed. You do not have to use WEST System epoxies. Any structural epoxy will work. Finishing resins (usually called 20 minute epoxies in modeling terms are not structural epoxies, do not use them!). If you do not have a commercial filler sawdust will work fine, and it does not have to be flour consistency. But it will not be thixotropic. It will run and not stay where you put it and will run out of the joint. If you use it be sure you protect your flap control horn area from any possibility of it flowing down onto the horn. Gravity will pull it there and ... well you don't even want to imagine the solution to THAT problem. (been there, done that, bought the T-shirt).  Also the sawdust blends are very hard to smooth and blend. They will definately need a microfiller overlay. With a little practice though you can get very smooth fillets with the 403 blend.

To use them first measure out the amount you want to mix of the epoxy liquids then mix them well. Don't try to do it on a pad. You will not have enough room once you mix in the filler. Take your time and mix the stuff well. Then add the filler. Add it generously and mix it to peanut butter consistency. A peak should stand when you pull off your mixing stick. Now apply it to the surfaces to be bonded and join them. You can use a gloved finger moistened with water or alcohol to smooth it. Structural fillet materials are harder to sand than nonstructural materials so if you are going to have to have perfect aesthetics in the area, very slightly underfill and then after the material hardens overlay a nonstructural filler over it like a microballoon mix. Do not overcompress the joint. The material will span quite a gap and you do not want a dry or starved joint. You want it totally filled with the material.

Dennis Adamisin and I were discussing this over the phone today and we both concluded gorilla glue would also probably span the gap adequately and provide adequate tensile strength though neither of us knew the tensile strength of the stuff nore how it degrades with span of the space. It is made for close contact and some of these joints are open 1/16 to 1/8 inch. So its our "thought", not something we have proved. Gorilla glues though do not finish well. While they are soft and can be sanded they are extremely porous and will not accept a finish without another filler being placed over them. Also should you be doing a fuel compartment with them, be aware that they will NOT contain a liquid! It will pour right thru the joint. Not sure how that will affect your finish around the joint, but I don't want to be the one to find out. Also note they will permanently stain your fingers dark brown. It cannot be removed until the skin exfoliates which will be a couple of weeks. btw, I specified the gloved hand for smoothing the epoxy fillets because of allergy issues. Epoxies can create allergies by direct contact. Full scale homebuilt ranks are filled with proofs of this. Very few epoxy homebuilts are built any longer due to this. Be very careful, especially when you sand the stuff. Glove and mask!

The only issue I see with this on the T-Rex is that the front bulkhead the belly pan joins to is fairly light balsa. Brad mentioned doubling this bulkhead with a thin light ply. Probably be reasonable. But if the wing is well bonded to the belly pan (again I use structural fillet materials to join my wings, for this reason, and the belly pan is well joined to the at the aft end and the front bulkhead, you have pretty well reinforced this bulkhead. I fly on moderately smooth to rough grass fields. The construction of the T-Rex is not old school balsa block stuff. It is a thin, light molded balsa shell built with really extremely light wood as Brad has mentioned. The leading edges of mine were easily as light as any under 4 pound wood I have used in the same application. I'm sure I'm not the only one to put a finger thru by suprise. While this allows this plane to fly very well indeed, it is going to require a new learning curve in proper handling for those used to building and flying balsa block formed shapes.

Kudos again to both Brad and John. They have really brought a top class competitor to the arena. Had mine up again last week as our weather is just starting to break here in Michigan. It is a real joy to fly.

bob branch

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2010, 08:18:46 PM »
If you look carefully at the picture you will see the separation occurred in the belly pan joint. The strength issue does not lie in the fuselage above the joint. It lies in making a solid structural joint on the bottom of the wing to tie the belly pan to the front and aft sections of the fuselage, not just glueing it onto the bottom of the wing. ...
bob branch

In Joe's case, the failure may have started down low and moved up, but in Eric V and my cases, it started on top and moved down.  Both Eric and I knew to be careful with the fit of the bottom, and in both our cases, there was no gap in the joints to propagate a failure.  In fact, on both of ours, we found that our tight joints on the bottom pan actually held, the lightply of the lower former simply delaminated and the assembly came apart after the upper section failed.
Steve

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2010, 05:23:22 AM »
Thanks Steve. That explains it better and says that indeed the top does need the ply added. I'll make it an addition to all my arf's now.

bob

Offline Ron Merrill

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 278
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2010, 09:06:24 AM »
Thanks Bob. y1 Ron.

Offline Bob Reeves

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3415
    • Somethin'Xtra Inc.
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2010, 09:53:47 AM »
Doubt I'll have any issues with the ARC I'm in the process of finishing as the whole fuselage is covered with fiberglass but am wondering about an ARF I put together for a friend last fall. It was finished just about the time the weather turned bad and only has a couple flights. The bottom saddle is bullet proof but I didn't do anything to the top.

Do you take the gamble or order a roll of orange covering  ??? ??? ???

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2272
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2010, 01:07:49 PM »
Doubt I'll have any issues with the ARC I'm in the process of finishing as the whole fuselage is covered with fiberglass but am wondering about an ARF I put together for a friend last fall. It was finished just about the time the weather turned bad and only has a couple flights. The bottom saddle is bullet proof but I didn't do anything to the top.

Do you take the gamble or order a roll of orange covering  ??? ??? ???

From where I sit, you order the orange covering.  n~
My buddy Jimmy Welch had 91 successful flights on his ST 51 powered T Rex with no reinforcement or issues, but the sight of mine folding up was so jaw dropping to Welch that the next week his ARF was sporting big patches of carbon veil over the aft fuselage. Now he knows its indestructable! y1
Steve

Willis Swindell

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2010, 03:24:29 PM »
Back up of Steve’s story

Offline jim welch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 07:34:45 PM »
It's 6 strips of 50k tow 3/4 inch wide about five inches long applied from aft of the canopy rearward top and bottom.i just cut the covering off and applied the tow with epoxy cause i sure don't want to loose this arf.We have certainly tortured this airplane where we fly at and it had held up for 91 flights and won the KOI and its is one great flying machine.My ARC T REX alias P 47, PA61 on pipe has just about all the upgrades bradley mentioned plus full carbon reinforced fuselage,kevlar fillets, and .5 glass on the whole fuselage and flying great.  Jimmy
AMA 89335

Offline Rudy Taube

  • Ret Flyboy
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 974
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2010, 01:09:34 AM »
It's 6 strips of 50k tow 3/4 inch wide about five inches long applied from aft of the canopy rearward top and bottom.i just cut the covering off and applied the tow with epoxy cause i sure don't want to loose this arf.We have certainly tortured this airplane where we fly at and it had held up for 91 flights and won the KOI and its is one great flying machine.My ARC T REX alias P 47, PA61 on pipe has just about all the upgrades bradley mentioned plus full carbon reinforced fuselage,kevlar fillets, and .5 glass on the whole fuselage and flying great.  Jimmy

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the details on your ARF patch. It looks like it should solve the problem

On your ARC/T-Rex/P-47 that you covered the fuse with FG, did you paint over the FG or did you use a film covering? I would like to use the carbon vail or .5 FG on my ARC/T-Rex/P-47 put on with the foam safe thin CA suggested on this forum but I would like to cover the whole plane with Ultracote (I am paint challenged and don't want to go there ;-)

Do you, or anyone out there know if film goes over the carbon vail or FG easily? I have only covered over wood in the past, before ARFs took over. Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,  H^^
Rudy
AMA 1667

Offline bob branch

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 941
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2010, 05:23:22 AM »
Rudy

I am afraid you will find that a very difficult thing to do. No film likes to go over a non porous surface. The gases released by the adhesive have no where to escape. Covering for instance over a doped surface is a nightmare. A good thing to do is just take a piece of scrap balsa sheeting  and do a trial to test your results. One possibility, but I will state I cannot make it work in my hands, but others swear by it is to use balsarite over the surface and then cover with monocote. A key is that the balsarite must be adequately thinned. Be sure you have new balsarite... question your supplier. If its been setting on the shelf do not use it. I don't remember the thinner, but it should be thin when put on. It sands very poorly.  I believe then that you use a lower heat to adhere the monocote to it. I do not believe it works with ultracote. I have had nothing but "throw the plane out" results with it. But as I said others get good results. You may want to go on the building forum of RC Universe and asked those who use it how to make it work.

Anyone here who has experience making it work well please pipe in. You might also place an inquiry on the building forum here. But make sure in your inquiry that you specify you want a competition finish result. Not just something covered. 

bob branch

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2010, 09:36:17 AM »
Rudy,
not personal experience per se,, but What about using dope instead of epoxy.
It would not be as strong but still stronger than naked wood.
Another option, I HAVE done silkspan and dope over a surface and then monokoted over that. The key being not to totally fill the silkspan with dope. say maybe two coats instead of 4?
the other alternative is , since Im layed off now, you could fly me down and I could coach you through painting the plane,, I will even bring my spray guns  LL~ y1
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Rudy Taube

  • Ret Flyboy
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 974
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2010, 11:15:32 PM »
Hi Bob and Mark,

Bob,

Thank you for the help. That has been my feeling on this, it is difficult to impossible to do. I sold all my paint gear decades ago when all the RC ARFs were better than I could build and I could afford to hire an expert to do any painting that was needed (no AP problem in RC ;-).

I think I will just skip the outside reinforcement and just complete my inside CF/ply reinforcements and cover the balsa. Thanks again for your input.

Mark,

If it were not for the strange BOM rule in CL, I would ship the plane to you and pay you $x,xxx to finish it for me. Or just send you the plane ticket and have you take a vacation here at the beach while the paint dries, it was 76 in sunshine today. :-) BTW: your excellent pilot looks great in the cockpit. I am back to work hot and heavy on the plane and it should be finished in a few weeks (I am really slow ;-). It has a very powerful electric motor for power, a removeable wing and tail (so I can fly up to one of your NW contests this year, and McMinville next year! :-) and a lot of scale details. It will not be in your league of beautiful finished models, but it should get me a few APs for a change.  #^

The good news is that the economy will continue to improve this spring and summer and things should get better for you and your company. We need to keep talented artists like you employed in the work force so that you can continue making our world a more beautiful place to live!  y1

Warm Regards,  H^^
Rudy
AMA 1667

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2010, 09:59:20 AM »
76 degrees,, hmm
beach,, HMMMM
now let me think, I have taught many people to paint, maybe I can ,,

Rudy, thanks you make me feel like I may actually know something lol,,
I do really look forward to you making some of our contests, the regionals is a spectacular event! The Avenger may even still be alive then,, lol
Failing that, well maybe I can strap a plane on my back and hitchhike down for Golden state this fall,,
I look forward to seeing the pilot in his rightfull home,, ;)
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Willis Swindell

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010, 08:19:52 AM »
Just a little up date. The T-Rex flew well at Huntersville in 25 plus MPH winds. I took a first and Jimmy Welch took a third in some real adverse weather and it held up fine.
Willis  H^^

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22776
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2010, 08:27:36 AM »
Congrats to  both of you.  This will make Bradley happy. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Willis Swindell

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2010, 09:11:30 AM »
Yea Brad might also be right about the big ruder Jimmy’s stock T-rex did handle the gust a little better then mine. But no one in their right mind would fly in that much wind. I’ll keep my big rudder.
Willis  LL~

Online Joe Gilbert

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 516
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 07:50:48 AM »
Mine need some explaining , it had a near crash I had the leadouts to close togeather and out of the wingover they caught and I gave a big yank they came lose just in time to graze the ground bent the gear and buzzed the prop. Didn't catch the damage I did to the glue joint, just took gear out and re bent them and went flying the next time it was little windy and I was leaning on it to see what it would do at the botton of the out side square it popped lose and almost crashed flew around for while and Elwyn got some pictures the gap looks a lot bigger in picture than it did with eye, got back over and landed. I glued back with Gorilla glue pealed the monocoate back wet the balsa and let dry, soaked the balsa on top with CA and all is well. I think the gorilla glue is the right thing to use, it takes up some space and is very strong.
Joe Gilbert

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: T Rex flight report
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2010, 10:10:27 AM »
Yea Brad might also be right about the big ruder Jimmy’s stock T-rex did handle the gust a little better then mine. But no one in their right mind would fly in that much wind. I’ll keep my big rudder.
Willis  LL~

 HB~>

The little rudder should be called the Muncie rudder...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here