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Building Tips and technical articles. => ARF'S => Topic started by: Chris Fretz on January 14, 2018, 08:47:36 AM

Title: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 14, 2018, 08:47:36 AM
Sooo what kind of hinges do everyone plan on using? Dubro are all I've been using, are there better ones? I've been using epoxy to install them, is there a better way? I see the plans call for gorilla or sumo glue (which I've personally never heard of) is this a better a choice for hinges?

Thanks
Chris Fretz
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 14, 2018, 12:26:24 PM
Gorilla or P/U glue expands a bit when it dries. It also sands pretty easily.
Humidity/water is what cures it. You can find it at Home Depot or Lowes.
A lot of RC guys use it with EPP foam builds. You can mix it with water to make it foam up more, and make it easier to sand.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/how-strong-is-gorilla-glue/

I'll probably use the barrel hinges (like the dubro you mention) if I don't go full on Pocket type hinges (since I have an ARC). I will probably not get to this plane very soon, so I have plenty of time to think about it. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sparky+Control+line+build+hinges+video&&view=detail&mid=AAE87072096403F18472AAE87072096403F18472&FORM=VRDGAR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sparky+Control+line+build+hinges+video&&view=detail&mid=C27B7C454C4C9D87C307C27B7C454C4C9D87C307&&FORM=VDRVRV

Good luck with yours.

R,
Target
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 14, 2018, 03:28:41 PM
Gorilla or P/U glue expands a bit when it dries. It also sands pretty easily.
Humidity/water is what cures it. You can find it at Home Depot or Lowes.
A lot of RC guys use it with EPP foam builds. You can mix it with water to make it foam up more, and make it easier to sand.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/how-strong-is-gorilla-glue/

I'll probably use the barrel hinges (like the dubro you mention) if I don't go full on Pocket type hinges (since I have an ARC). I will probably not get to this plane very soon, so I have plenty of time to think about it. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sparky+Control+line+build+hinges+video&&view=detail&mid=AAE87072096403F18472AAE87072096403F18472&FORM=VRDGAR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sparky+Control+line+build+hinges+video&&view=detail&mid=C27B7C454C4C9D87C307C27B7C454C4C9D87C307&&FORM=VDRVRV

Good luck with yours.

R,
Target
I've seen and used gorilla glue just not on modes.  The Sumo I've never heard of. 

Your link to the gorilla glue was ingesting to read. Seems it can be  problematic expanding and pushing. What are barrel hinges? I definitely don't want to try Sparkys kind of hinge on this ARF.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 14, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
Barrel hinges are Dubro pinned hinges.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 14, 2018, 04:46:21 PM
Barrel hinges are Dubro pinned hinges.
Ohh I thought they were the round plastic ones that have to be perfectly straight.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 14, 2018, 09:25:13 PM
Those are hinge points.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 16, 2018, 10:23:44 AM
Those are hinge points.

I don't know I think it's time to strip you of the "control line newbie"  ;)
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 16, 2018, 10:58:10 AM
I'm a rc sailplane veteran. Not the "Gentle Lady" or Wanderer style.
I've cut hundreds of foam cores for sailplanes, 98% for paying customers. I also have done the (paid) gear installs for many others in their composite carbon sailplanes.
But I'm still relatively new to control line. That is what makes it most fun to me, the steep curve!
When i have time, I'll vacuum bag a carbon wing, fuse, and tail for a ukie. I'm looking forward to that.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dane Martin on January 16, 2018, 11:17:16 AM
Hey, I like the gentle lady and wanderer! Lol. I'm actually building my son a Falke DLG. he wants it all black with a "Flash" logo on it.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Brent Williams on January 16, 2018, 08:42:45 PM

I've cut hundreds of foam cores for sailplanes, 98% for paying customers. I also have done the (paid) gear installs for many others in their composite carbon sailplanes.
But I'm still relatively new to control line.
When i have time, I'll vacuum bag a carbon wing, fuse, and tail for a ukie. I'm looking forward to that.

Chris...cut it out..!.  You're bragging about your mad, Tekoa foam cutting skills again.. J.K!   ..LOL!  (inside joke...) S?P ;D
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 16, 2018, 09:54:57 PM
All I need is time now.... ::)
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 18, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
I've been messing with the SV-11 checking things out and fitting dubro hinges in the stab. It occurs to me, how do you do a final pushrod adjustment on the elevator when this things all together? No access hatch. My other ARFs I've made it possible to get to the flap horn through the cockpit as well and this one is already glued on.  Bummer there as well.  The bellcrank doesn't have a ball link just a really snug fitting rod. I'm kinda pondering putting in a 4in Tom Morris bellcrank with a ball link, if it will fit.  That would also get rid of the crimped lines. Thoughts?

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on January 19, 2018, 10:24:39 AM
I've been messing with the SV-11 checking things out and fitting dubro hinges in the stab. It occurs to me, how do you do a final pushrod adjustment on the elevator when this things all together? No access hatch. My other ARFs I've made it possible to get to the flap horn through the cockpit as well and this one is already glued on.  Bummer there as well.  The bellcrank doesn't have a ball link just a really snug fitting rod. I'm kinda pondering putting in a 4in Tom Morris bellcrank with a ball link, if it will fit.  That would also get rid of the crimped lines. Thoughts?

Chris

Hi Chris
I built the electric prototype and did make some provisions for adjustment.  Two things in play:

1. Obviously, take care to adjust as close as possible before your final installation of tail.  You probably will not get it perfect but you do not want it to be so far off that you are either bottomed out or hanging by a thread at one end or the other.

2. If you check the fuselage on either side under the stab you will find a kidney shaped opening in the balsa in line with the elevator horn - check out the attached picture.  Open this up for access to the ball link at the horn.  When you get it right put a patch of covering, or tape over it, or just leave it open so you can routinely inspect that connection.  After final adjustments on mine I have not bothered to cover it over, it is not that visible...
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 19, 2018, 01:11:50 PM
Hi Chris
I built the electric prototype and did make some provisions for adjustment.  Two things in play:

1. Obviously, take care to adjust as close as possible before your final installation of tail.  You probably will not get it perfect but you do not want it to be so far off that you are either bottomed out or hanging by a thread at one end or the other.

2. If you check the fuselage on either side under the stab you will find a kidney shaped opening in the balsa in line with the elevator horn - check out the attached picture.  Open this up for access to the ball link at the horn.  When you get it right put a patch of covering, or tape over it, or just leave it open so you can routinely inspect that connection.  After final adjustments on mine I have not bothered to cover it over, it is not that visible...
Thanks for the reply!  I'll do that too.

I see the back half of the fuse is half cut off above the stab, I assume that's to be cut off completely to make it easier to install the stab if you already have the elevators attached?

Did you use the bellcrank that was already installed into the wing?

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on January 19, 2018, 03:23:49 PM
Sort of.  When we got the first prototypes back we changed over from a normal nylon BC that they used in that build to one of the Brodak PSP "Windy" bellcranks.  I changed the bellcrank on the one I built and John Brodak shipped 500 PSP bellcranks to be used in the SV-11 ARF/ARC build.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 19, 2018, 04:53:03 PM
Sort of.  When we got the first prototypes back we changed over from a normal nylon BC that they used in that build to one of the Brodak PSP "Windy" bellcranks.  I changed the bellcrank on the one I built and John Brodak shipped 500 PSP bellcranks to be used in the SV-11 ARF/ARC build.
The bellcrank in the picture looks like the same one in mine.  The circled part (control horn bearing) I didn't get in my kit. Did you leave the pushrod a super tight fit on the bellcrank or did you loosen it up some?

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on January 19, 2018, 06:54:13 PM
The bellcrank in the picture looks like the same one in mine.  The circled part (control horn bearing) I didn't get in my kit. Did you leave the pushrod a super tight fit on the bellcrank or did you loosen it up some?

Chris

I built it with the stuff it came with.  Anything that was changed (like the bellcrank) was noted.  I even used the CA type hinges because I have used them in the past and they have performed well for me - but I understand others are not so willing to try them.  There was a problem with the motor mount for the electric so that was redesigned with an integrated air scoop and the nose ring was repositioned.  Randy Smith got the nitro fuselage and discovered that the pipe tunnel was wrong, so he directed how to fix that.  As you have probably discovered the wood work is superb.  The guys who bought the ARC's have probably noticed that the cap strips for the rib are laser cut and notched into the LE and TE sheeting - it looks like the sheeting is assembled off the wing, sanded, then applied to the wing in a single piece.  The leading edge radius is also very well done - certainly a huge improvement over the earlier ARF's/ARCs.  They did a good job with the CL hardware installation too.  I think these are the best ARFs/ARCs yet.

I did not make the pushrod hole especially tight or loose in the bellcrank.  The bellcrank is about 3/8" thick so I would expect that it will last a log time without wearing loose.  I know some folks like to use a ball link there.  If I was doing that I would tap the bellcrank, use a steel washer for the ball link to set on, screw the bolt into the bellcrank then back it up with a lock not.  However I would also make sure the link cleared the joiner spars.

Everybody has their own preferences, you started this thread asking if you needed to change the bellcrank.  My answer would be no you do not NEED too, however I cannot/will not bash anyone who changed out to Tom Morris hardware, that aint bad stuff either!
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 29, 2018, 07:44:34 PM
After seeing the hole drilled off center on the leadout adjuster I thought it could cause a problem.  Maybe it would be ok maybe not.  So I ripped it out. Since it took cutting the leadouts I just said screw it and changed out the bellcrank to a Tom Morris style. A little fudging but I got it to fit.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 29, 2018, 07:46:23 PM
Pic
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 29, 2018, 07:47:09 PM
Wing just about done.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dane Martin on January 30, 2018, 06:42:03 AM
Bad @$$ Chris!
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 30, 2018, 04:11:40 PM
I'm bummed they glued the cockpit on.  If I cut it off I'll screw it up. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: jim welch on January 31, 2018, 10:28:48 AM
Ready to fly today..
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on January 31, 2018, 12:14:41 PM
You kicked my butt building it.  Im still piddleing around with dumb stuff.  I don't have the engine yet for it either.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on January 31, 2018, 03:12:51 PM
Ready to fly today..

Way to go - & keep us posted.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: jim welch on January 31, 2018, 07:06:05 PM
Chris youre doing the right things with yours bellcrank and control horns from tom great idea. Also go inside and epoxy the plate that the gear mounts to real good and gusset it against the doubler. Just like the vector it will pull out on a rough landing or too low bottom. the mount appears to be real plywood also in the nose. I made carbon gear for mine and didn't use the metal gear. couple quick flights proves what a great toy this is.
Axi 2826-10
4s 3000 mah battery
castle phoenix 50 esc
12x6 ep Apc
9500 rpm
5.0 laps on 61 foot lines
weighs an incredible 55 ozs without battery
63 ozs flight ready.
Gonna ring it out good tomorrow
I had 1.25 outboard tip weight in it and don't need but probably
 3/4 oz. The quality of this thing is quite extraordinary .
More later/ didn't mean to hijack your thread, thanks for the use of your runway...ha ha  jim
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 31, 2018, 08:42:53 PM
Are the e-clips securing the bellcrank OK? Makes me a little nervous.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 01, 2018, 03:47:54 AM
Chris youre doing the right things with yours bellcrank and control horns from tom great idea. Also go inside and epoxy the plate that the gear mounts to real good and gusset it against the doubler. Just like the vector it will pull out on a rough landing or too low bottom. the mount appears to be real plywood also in the nose. I made carbon gear for mine and didn't use the metal gear. couple quick flights proves what a great toy this is.
Axi 2826-10
4s 3000 mah battery
castle phoenix 50 esc
12x6 ep Apc
9500 rpm
5.0 laps on 61 foot lines
weighs an incredible 55 ozs without battery
63 ozs flight ready.
Gonna ring it out good tomorrow
I had 1.25 outboard tip weight in it and don't need but probably
 3/4 oz. The quality of this thing is quite extraordinary .
More later/ didn't mean to hijack your thread, thanks for the use of your runway...ha ha  jim
You didn't hijack the thread,  I welcome it!  Don't seem like anyone really has anything much to say on this thread so far.  So it was great to see something!

I only put a Tom Morris bellcrank in.  I still have the original control horns. They seem to be giving me aggravation to. You can't fit 2 ball links together with the original flap horn. I got it fudged but I sware I'm getting more flap movement than elevator movement. I have pushrod on the elevator horn on the second hole down and the flap horn its the second hole up.

I had to cut a small hole to look at the bellcrank cause I was getting a clicking, turned out epoxy dripped on the bellcrank leadout. I was afraid of something like that happening. Got it moving smooth again.

I'll check out the landing gear mount, thanks for the heads up!

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 01, 2018, 03:53:37 AM
Are the e-clips securing the bellcrank OK? Makes me a little nervous.
I thought it was a neat idea. I kept that part the same with the Tom bellcrank I put in.  I don't imagine they can pop off. Although stupid things can happen I suppose. Maybe glue a cap over the ends, if they do come off then the rod cant fall out.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on February 01, 2018, 07:58:16 AM
Are the e-clips securing the bellcrank OK? Makes me a little nervous.

I’m not sure I know what this is about. An e-clip like a snap ring?
Anybody have a picture of this setup?
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 01, 2018, 08:38:41 AM
Yep. My bellcrank pivot pin is held in with two snap rings. I'm not able to take a picture right now. Mine is an ARC Glow model.
I might glue over the ends when i know I'm not gong to mess with it further.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 01, 2018, 03:53:05 PM
I’m not sure I know what this is about. An e-clip like a snap ring?
Anybody have a picture of this setup?
This is the E clip in the wing.

Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on February 01, 2018, 06:27:09 PM
Interesting. That’s the e-clip I thought you all were talking about, they’re actually pretty reliable.
Never imagined them in this application, but I see no reason it won’t work fine.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 01, 2018, 07:15:48 PM
It's true that there's no reason this part should fail.
On my plane though, because the result of its failing is pretty much a guaranteed disaster, I'll set mine up so that the bellcrank pivot pin can't shift if either clip comes off.
Trusting the whole plane to a 3 cent part makes me nervous. I'm not what i would consider lucky. I'd rather be prepared.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: jim welch on February 01, 2018, 08:00:55 PM
Chris
I just rounded a piece of balsa and inserted flush to the planking against the clip and shaft and glued it flush to the planking so nothing could back out.
incidently I flew the plane today in some pretty strong winds and it flys superb with some really crisp corners and is solid as a rock overhead. Lap times were 5.1 and the thing glides effortlessly for a lap and a half to a nice smooth touch down. I can't wait for some better weather to get a bunch of flights on this one.
jim
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 01, 2018, 08:58:04 PM
Thanks Jim, nice report!
That's pretty much what I had in mind. Just want to make sure the pin stays located if the clips vaporized.
There is no reason for my concern, other than to satisfy my own peace of mind. I'm thinking you did it too for the same reason.

I'm so looking forward to flying this plane, but I want to do a decent job on the covering and finish, and there are 1-1/2 planes ahead of this in the queue (for the time being!!!)

Kind Regards,
Target
Title: After further review...
Post by: Jim Mynes on February 03, 2018, 05:14:14 PM
So I was “tinkering” on the Vector and, low and behold, there are the e-clips I was asking about.
I think they’ll work just fine. Gluing caps on is probably not necessary, but I’m gonna do it anyway.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on February 14, 2018, 07:05:25 AM
I only put a Tom Morris bellcrank in.  I still have the original control horns. They seem to be giving me aggravation to. You can't fit 2 ball links together with the original flap horn. I got it fudged but I sware I'm getting more flap movement than elevator movement. I have pushrod on the elevator horn on the second hole down and the flap horn its the second hole up.

Chris
Hi Chris

I did not see if you resolved your ball link dilemma, but if not here is an idea you can try.  I did this on the prototype of the Vector & SV-11's and I have been doing it ever since I started using ball links a few years back - see pix.  It maximizes the available movement to the elevator, allowing a longer pivot arm (if needed) and completely eliminates the issue with the ball links crowding for space.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 08:55:00 AM
Hi Chris

I did not see if you resolved your ball link dilemma, but if not here is an idea you can try.  I did this on the prototype of the Vector & SV-11's and I have been doing it ever since I started using ball links a few years back - see pix.  It maximizes the available movement to the elevator, allowing a longer pivot arm (if needed) and completely eliminates the issue with the ball links crowding for space.

Well I built my dads Vector wile I waited for my engine to come for the SV-11, it came the other day so I'm back into it.
I got the wing glued in last night.
But anyway I took the bellcrank from my ARF Nobler that was laying around and cut a strip off it.  I used that and basically extended the length of the control horn. But your way looks much better,  maybe I should reconsider what I did. All you basically need is just a 1 to 1 movement right?

How did you make a air exit in the cowl for engine cooling?

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on February 14, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
Why not just use the two ball links not on the same side, put the elevator ball link on the other side of the horn standup

Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
Why not just use the two ball links not on the same side, put the elevator ball link on the other side of the horn standup

Randy
I tried that first but the ball link for the elevator pushrod  hits the nut that's holding the bellcrank ball link on the other side.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 14, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
I tried that first but the ball link for the elevator pushrod  hits the nut that's holding the bellcrank ball link on the other side.

Chris
Not if you use the same hole and one long bolt, right?
I think that you are talking about two separate holes on the flap horn for attachment right? If so, could you put the machine screws through the horn the other way, so that the nuts are outside the ball link yoke?

Posting a picture would help, but I'm at work, sorry.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on February 14, 2018, 12:42:07 PM
Hi Chris

I did not see if you resolved your ball link dilemma, but if not here is an idea you can try.  I did this on the prototype of the Vector & SV-11's and I have been doing it ever since I started using ball links a few years back - see pix.  It maximizes the available movement to the elevator, allowing a longer pivot arm (if needed) and completely eliminates the issue with the ball links crowding for space.

I’ve been doing the same thing, except a ball link on each side of the horn. One screw holding both.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 01:18:44 PM
Not if you use the same hole and one long bolt, right?
I think that you are talking about two separate holes on the flap horn for attachment right? If so, could you put the machine screws through the horn the other way, so that the nuts are outside the ball link yoke?

Posting a picture would help, but I'm at work, sorry.
I probably am thinking the opposite thing Randy was saying.  Maybe he is talking about Dennis's picture and putting one on each side.

It's pretty close it even hits the cap screw head.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 02:18:19 PM
So the elevator horn is the same length as the flap horn? If not you're going to have some crazy fast elevator ratio.
Flap and elevator horn are both the same length at 1.065, with your choice of 3 holes in each horn.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
I’ve been doing the same thing, except a ball link on each side of the horn. One screw holding both.
Hi Chris

I did not see if you resolved your ball link dilemma, but if not here is an idea you can try.  I did this on the prototype of the Vector & SV-11's and I have been doing it ever since I started using ball links a few years back - see pix.  It maximizes the available movement to the elevator, allowing a longer pivot arm (if needed) and completely eliminates the issue with the ball links crowding for space.

Do you guys use the top hole on the flap horn when doing this? What elevator hole are you using also?

Thanks
Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on February 14, 2018, 05:35:40 PM
Well I built my dads Vector wile I waited for my engine to come for the SV-11, it came the other day so I'm back into it.
I got the wing glued in last night.
But anyway I took the bellcrank from my ARF Nobler that was laying around and cut a strip off it.  I used that and basically extended the length of the control horn. But your way looks much better,  maybe I should reconsider what I did. All you basically need is just a 1 to 1 movement right?

How did you make a air exit in the cowl for engine cooling?

Chris

Run the pushrod from the bellcrank to the top or outermost hole on the flap horn.
Run the elevator pushrod from the shared outermost hole (per my prior picture) to the outermost hole on the elevator.

This results in a 1:1 ratio.

The Vector and the SV-11 prototypes each got a half round air exit that looked something like this...

Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 14, 2018, 06:43:25 PM
Run the pushrod from the bellcrank to the top or outermost hole on the flap horn.
Run the elevator pushrod from the shared outermost hole (per my prior picture) to the outermost hole on the elevator.

This results in a 1:1 ratio.

The Vector and the SV-11 prototypes each got a half round air exit that looked something like this...
Ok good that's the way I put it,  thanks for sharing! Much better than how I was doing it. 

I saw the half round hole on the Vector and cut the covering off on that one but the SV-11 doesn't have the half round hole. Ill have to cut it.

Thanks again for the help!

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 14, 2018, 07:11:11 PM
Is the 1:1 ratio ideal for the SV? When should the SV use less than a 1:1 ratio?

R,
Target
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on February 16, 2018, 07:34:58 AM
Is the 1:1 ratio ideal for the SV? When should the SV use less than a 1:1 ratio?

R,
Target

Randy is the one best suited to answer this one.  All I can say is that mine flies really well with 1:1 and I see no need to change it.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on February 16, 2018, 07:43:49 AM
I’ve been doing the same thing, except a ball link on each side of the horn. One screw holding both.

Hi Jim
I have done some that way too, it certainly looks better!  However, it results in both the flap and elevator loading up on the same side of the pushrod and ball link from the bellcrank.  A pessimist would argue that side loads can tend to pop the ball link apart.  If you do it like my picture than the loads to the elevator are on the opposite side and sort-of balance out the load from the flaps.  Of course it is not truly a balanced load but it is closer.

Does it matter?  Probably not much...
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Fredvon4 on February 16, 2018, 01:34:27 PM
I am purely a sport pilot with no intention of learning nor perfecting a PAMPA pattern

To date None of my 11 planes (I fly for fun) is flapped... I do have a oriental, Nobler, P40, and this SV-11 with flaps

I dearly love the advice and guidance I get from these forums.... to date I have followed a lot of advice and do not have burps, flame outs, or (too many) runaways

I have a RS B&B magnum 52 and all the good stuff from John and Randy to throw this SV-11 ARF together for this spring flying WX...

A bit confused as I seem to read different flapped planes need different Flap to Elevator ratios..... as i have never trimmed a flapped craft I would like to know the successful starting ratio

Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: peabody on February 16, 2018, 03:23:46 PM
Hi Fred....
The SV, as well as the Vector, have been flying for years and the "quirks" are pretty much worked out....
Build the SV like the book says and you'll be delighted.....


Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 16, 2018, 04:30:32 PM
Isn't she pretty!?!
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on February 16, 2018, 08:19:11 PM
I am purely a sport pilot with no intention of learning nor perfecting a PAMPA pattern

To date None of my 11 planes (I fly for fun) is flapped... I do have a oriental, Nobler, P40, and this SV-11 with flaps

I dearly love the advice and guidance I get from these forums.... to date I have followed a lot of advice and do not have burps, flame outs, or (too many) runaways

I have a RS B&B magnum 52 and all the good stuff from John and Randy to throw this SV-11 ARF together for this spring flying WX...

A bit confused as I seem to read different flapped planes need different Flap to Elevator ratios..... as i have never trimmed a flapped craft I would like to know the successful starting ratio

Hi Fred  THE  plane  was designed  to use a  1 to 1  ratio of flap and  elevator,  I setup mine  that way, you would only need  to use  less flap  if you have  an ultralight  plane

Regards
Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 16, 2018, 09:25:02 PM
Less than about what weight in the case of the SV-11, Randy?
Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Fredvon4 on February 17, 2018, 09:20:34 AM
Thanks Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on February 17, 2018, 02:05:35 PM
Less than about what weight in the case of the SV-11, Randy?
Thanks in advance.

Hi Most  all stunt ships, will need  more flap if heavy, and less flap if built  very light, and most, but not all  , use  and are designed  for a  1 to 1 ratio, even though  many include a slider hoen to change ratios, Exceptions are out there , but  1 to 1 is where you normally start

Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on February 17, 2018, 03:06:35 PM
Ok, thanks Randy.
What is the sign that shows the ratio isn't optimun?
How do you tell if you need less flap or more flap by the flight characteristics?
Sorry to be a pest, and thanks for your advice in advance.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 27, 2018, 06:35:03 PM
Run the pushrod from the bellcrank to the top or outermost hole on the flap horn.
Run the elevator pushrod from the shared outermost hole (per my prior picture) to the outermost hole on the elevator.

This results in a 1:1 ratio.

The Vector and the SV-11 prototypes each got a half round air exit that looked something like this...
Hey Dennis what did you find to be the right amount of wing tip weight?
Directions say to start with 1.5oz.

Thanks
Chris Fretz
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on February 27, 2018, 07:06:38 PM
I would start  with 1 ounce
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on February 27, 2018, 07:54:40 PM
I would start  with 1 ounce
Thanks Randy will do!  Do you think this will cool the Magnum enough?

Chris Fretz
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Ivan Bolton on March 03, 2018, 07:10:14 AM
Well on with the assembly of my electric SV11.  I wondered when I saw the ends already glued into the pushrod.  I'd have preferred to JB weld them in myself and the glue did not look like JB weld.  Then when I was adjusting the elevator ball link the end just failed.  It's now JB welded back in.  I could not get the other end to loosen in fairness so I left that in place as I did not want to damage the pushrod.....  Scary though! 

I did JB weld  a triangular hardwood strengthener to the undercarriage mounting plate where it meets the front former, although it seemed well slotted in place.  I lined the wing seat with 1/8" balsa to give the glue more purchase, when gluing the wing on.   I had to add a hatch to the bottom of the 'cowl' in order to get at my Renecle timer to program it.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: peabody on March 03, 2018, 07:48:27 AM
I epoxied buttonhole thread around the ends...
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on March 13, 2018, 03:45:30 AM
Great thread let me jump in here since I'm building an electric arf sv11 too.
I thought it was too  ;D
Did you guys get tubing on your control horns? No Both mine were bare, not sure how to get the hinge points on them. Was thinking to split a piece of tubing length wise then wrap those brass hinge things (not included) around and solder it together. I haven't measured the horn yet, might be metric. I bent my own and just didn't use tubing. My horns weren't perfectly straight so it made for tight controls when all the way up and down. I ditched a lot of hardware except landing gear and cowl screws.

I noticed the ball links that came with it are soft and flexible when I threaded one on the push rod. I'm switching to Dubro and a CF tube. I changed mine to dubro, also made up new pushrods and used reverse thread on one for easy adjustment

Did anyone notice allot of things aren't glued together around the wing root area? I'm definitely getting in there with some medium CA tomorrow.   I used thin CA and went over a lot of things

When I first tried to pull the lead outs back and forth they were really stiff. Lots of kinks and the front crimp kept catching on R2. I trimmed the rib and straightened everything out and it works smooth now. I hope it doesn't want the tether point farther back because you can't get the full range of adjustment. The front lead out drags on a rib out near the tip, can't fix that but it looks like it will be ok where it is.  I noticed that too. Fixed it thought, ripped it all out and replaced it all. I'll have no leadout failures. Double check your nylon adjustable leadout slide.  Mine was drilled horribly crooked.

I did a mock up of the wing joint with the beech logs and it looks good. How do you hold the wing straight while the epoxy is curing. I guess I could stand there and hold it for 20 minutes lol.  Its such a tight fit mine held together by itself. However in hind sight I wish I had used 2 incident meters to double check it,  esp with the vector!

Pic is of the Hunt G10 electric mount trimmed to be epoxied on the back of the wooden motor mount. I applied glue then bolted in an old motor casing to clamp it in place. Everything was coated with release agents so hopefully it will come apart tomorrow. 

MM 8)
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on March 13, 2018, 06:32:56 AM
On my Vector wing I measured the root thickness and the tip thickness, cut some shims that measured half the difference between those measurements, and put those shims on my bench at the tip rip locations. That takes care of holding the wing at zero dihedral.
Then when I mashed it all together the trailing edge was swept back. I put blocks in a straight line to push the trailing edge against, eyeballed the wing in place, and it looked good.
Then I measured the height of the trailing edge from the bench all along the length of it, bracing and weighing it down as needed until it was consistent.
Once I was happy with the alignment I took it he wing out, pulled the halves apart, slathered the Titebond to it, and put it back in my ‘jig’, tweaking, realigning, and measuring until I was happy with it.
When the glue dried there was a gap at the rear of the wing joint. Epoxy/Microballoons and a strip of fiberglass cloth fixed that up nicely.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on March 13, 2018, 06:38:20 AM
For the flap horn I used brass flat stock and wrapped it around the wire, squished it with pliers, and cut to length. I drilled a couple of small holes in the brass tag and roughed it up a bit for the glue to grab better.
There’s not much trailing edge wood there, I think it’s a 1/8 or 3/16 strip. The brass tabs don’t need to be very long.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on March 13, 2018, 06:53:48 AM
I didn’t use the supplied hinges, I use the big DuBro cotter pin type.
I won’t be using the supplied pushrods or ball links.
Here’s a tip for you...
Before you do any sanding or trimming near the canopy, stuff a paper towel in there to keep debris out. I have balsa dust and fine shavings trapped in the narrow areas under the canopy that will not come out. I’ve tried brushing it out with a small paintbrush, that just jams it in tighter. A can of computer air got some out, but wedged the rest in tight. The only solution is to remove the canopy, and as far as I can tell that will cause more problems than it’s worth.
I would have preferred to install the canopy myself after pushrod adjustments and what not were complete.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Walter Johnson on March 16, 2018, 05:02:21 PM
I'M just getting started on my SV11 ARF electric in the electric instruction sheet it talks about sliding the ESC through the chin round air intake down underneath into the chamber under the battery box area. There is a solid wall at the front of this chamber when looking at it through the air intake what have you guys done for placement of the ESC. Thanks Walter
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on April 07, 2018, 12:09:20 AM
Can you save weight by getting the ARC version and covering it yourself? How much would you save?

NO there is  no  ARC  Electric  SV11

Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Joe Yau on April 23, 2018, 04:41:11 PM
Totally bummed, finish weight is 69oz. have to use .018" lines.

Are you running 6 cell batt? or 5 cell..
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Brent Williams on April 23, 2018, 06:07:55 PM
What motor are you planning on running?
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Jim Mynes on April 24, 2018, 08:38:16 AM
Totally bummed, finish weight is 69oz. have to use .018" lines.

Although not ideal, I don’t see that as a problem.
When I was a teenager we were using .018 lines on Ringmasters, Flite Streaks, pretty much everything with a .35 on it.
.015 lines were for .15 powered planes.
AMA Requirements were different back then, based on displacement.
An SV-11 back then might have needed .021 lines. I never ventured above a .40 size engine, so I don’t know what a .60 would have needed.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on April 24, 2018, 10:03:20 AM
Totally bummed, finish weight is 69oz. have to use .018" lines.
I was planning on using .018 the whole time. It's a big airplane.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on April 24, 2018, 01:15:05 PM
Here's how I hold the battery in. I put a 4-40 blind nut in a block of basswood and epoxied it to the bottom plywood. The fork keys into the slots in the top plywood. The balsa block holds the battery up on center line. No out board plug needed, I just plug the battery in and close the door.
Your wing fits much better in the body than mine does.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: pmackenzie on April 30, 2018, 10:37:05 AM
Quick question - A friend (who is not on here) is putting together an ARF and asked me what flap /elevator throw ratio to use?

Thanks,

Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: peabody on April 30, 2018, 01:52:48 PM
Pat...assuming an SV 11 or Vector, 1 to 1 is great, with the bellcrank to flap horn in the slowest (least movement) position. There are a bunch flying and working well...
Other AFRs are different....

Have fun!
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: pmackenzie on May 01, 2018, 04:52:07 AM
SV11, same as the thread topic :)

So bellcrank to flap horn in the closest hole on the crank, and to the top of the flap horn?

Thanks,

Pat
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on May 19, 2018, 09:34:28 AM
Putting mine together today. I noticed I didn’t get the flap/ elevator horn bearings nor did I get the retainer for the flap pushrod. I was thinking about soldering on a thread coupler so the flap rod would have ball link both ends.
Are the horn bearings a necessity? I could run by the hardware store and buy some sheet brass to make them out of. How thick, .015, .010??

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on May 21, 2018, 02:57:37 PM
Okay, I screwed up! I epoxied the flap horn in upside down. I wasn’t paying attention and forgot that flaps were unequal lengths. I should have marked them R and L but it’s too late now. Suggestions for fixing this? I wondered if I could just resolder the horn part 180 degrees around but not sure how it has been soldered to begin with. If it is true silver, my torches aren’t hot enough. Plus, it appears to have plating on both the wire and the horn part. That could really mess up any attempt to solder it.
I also have been thinking about heating the wire where it goes into the flap to see if heat will soften the epoxy enough to pull it out.

What do you think are my best options?

Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: pmackenzie on May 21, 2018, 05:06:40 PM
Heat up the wire. Normal epoxy will get soft at fairly low temps.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: RandySmith on May 21, 2018, 05:08:30 PM
Okay, I screwed up! I epoxied the flap horn in upside down. I wasn’t paying attention and forgot that flaps were unequal lengths. I should have marked them R and L but it’s too late now. Suggestions for fixing this? I wondered if I could just resolder the horn part 180 degrees around but not sure how it has been soldered to begin with. If it is true silver, my torches aren’t hot enough. Plus, it appears to have plating on both the wire and the horn part. That could really mess up any attempt to solder it.
I also have been thinking about heating the wire where it goes into the flap to see if heat will soften the epoxy enough to pull it out.

What do you think are my best options?

Matt

Matt   I would try  to heat the  horn wire  and see if the epoxy gets soft enough  to pull them out

Regards
Randy
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on May 22, 2018, 07:32:49 PM
Heat worked perfect for fixing my screw up! After pulling the horn out of the flaps, I thought I better double check the elevators too. The elevator horn was also upside down. Both are now corrected and will start hinging my next session.

Thanks, Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: john e. holliday on May 23, 2018, 11:36:35 AM
And I thought I was the only one at doing things like this.    Just yesterday evening I cut ply pieces for the elevator on new project and then proceeded to CA in place backwards. HB~>
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on June 02, 2018, 06:05:21 PM
I finished up all the woodwork on my SV11 yesterday. I’ve assembled a buttload of RC arfs. Damn few compare to the way things fitted together on this one. The wing to fuse joint only needed a little sanding to get a near perfect fit same with the joints on the stab and over-fairing. Cockpit section also had a great fit.
I screwed up and got ahead of myself. I realized after epoxying the wing on that I didn’t add any extra gussets to the landing gear plate. I did glue in some 1/8” fuse doublers in the wing and stab mounting areas.
My current concern is mounting the motor. It seems like there is something keeping the motor from going up against the firewall. I wonder if the original motor it was designed for was a smaller diameter motor and the currently recommended motor is larger diameter. I’ll try to get into it a bit more tomorrow.

Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Walter Johnson on June 04, 2018, 07:49:48 AM
I finished up all the woodwork on my SV11 yesterday. I’ve assembled a buttload of RC arfs. Damn few compare to the way things fitted together on this one. The wing to fuse joint only needed a little sanding to get a near perfect fit same with the joints on the stab and over-fairing. Cockpit section also had a great fit.
I screwed up and got ahead of myself. I realized after epoxying the wing on that I didn’t add any extra gussets to the landing gear plate. I did glue in some 1/8” fuse doublers in the wing and stab mounting areas.
My current concern is mounting the motor. It seems like there is something keeping the motor from going up against the firewall. I wonder if the original motor it was designed for was a smaller diameter motor and the currently recommended motor is larger diameter. I’ll try to get into it a bit more tomorrow.

Matt
Hi Matt, Just finished up my SV11 arf electric here are some tips for your issues. On the landing gear plate there are good size round holes all along the fuselage bottom I opened up three of them for more cooling just aft of the gear plate you can sneak in triangle stock no problem with some 5 minute epoxy through those holes. Motor mounting I used the suggested Brodak motor which does not sit flat due to the wires at 6 oclock they will flex/bend a little as you snug down the mounting bolts be sure not to use to long of bolts as to not contact the windings. Walter
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on June 04, 2018, 08:01:06 AM
Hi Matt, Just finished up my SV11 arf electric here are some tips for your issues. On the landing gear plate there are good size round holes all along the fuselage bottom I opened up three of them for more cooling just aft of the gear plate you can sneak in triangle stock no problem with some 5 minute epoxy through those holes. Motor mounting I used the suggested Brodak motor which does not sit flat due to the wires at 6 oclock they will flex/bend a little as you snug down the mounting bolts be sure not to use to long of bolts as to not contact the windings. Walter

I cut out that lip beneath the motor so the wires don’t get in a bind. I was planning to use a Castle Edge 75A esc but it’s too big to fit in. Searching for an alternative. I have several others that would work but no programming cards to set up governor mode. Probably going to order a Castle Talon 60 today or I’ll try the old Phoenix 45 I have in stock. Not sure how much current capacity I really need for this plane.
I considered opening up a couple of those holes for cooling air even though the manual didn’t mention it. Gaining access to brace the gear plate guarantees I’ll open at least one up!

Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Walter Johnson on June 04, 2018, 09:30:17 AM
I cut out that lip beneath the motor so the wires don’t get in a bind. I was planning to use a Castle Edge 75A esc but it’s too big to fit in. Searching for an alternative. I have several others that would work but no programming cards to set up governor mode. Probably going to order a Castle Talon 60 today or I’ll try the old Phoenix 45 I have in stock. Not sure how much current capacity I really need for this plane.
I considered opening up a couple of those holes for cooling air even though the manual didn’t mention it. Gaining access to brace the gear plate guarantees I’ll open at least one up!

Matt
On ESC and timer I went again with what was recommended a Brodak Hornet 60 amp esc and the Hornet hubin timer also their 3500 mah 4s lipo a little pricey but light and compact.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 05, 2018, 05:06:49 PM
I've got a few flights on my SV-11. It's turning tight outsides compared to insides, hoping a pushrod adjustment helps this out.
https://youtu.be/RysKjKZgG8w
Chris
Title: blank
Post by: Motorman on June 05, 2018, 06:52:11 PM
blank
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 05, 2018, 07:27:34 PM
Mine has the exact same problem, tighter outsides. A push rod adjustment didn't fix mine. I believe it's got down thrust built in from the factory. I've shimmed the motor for more up thrust with .025" washers but I think .015" washers would be enough. It's been too windy to fly for me to find out.

Edit: I just watched your video, yours makes a different sound. I guess we don't have the same motor so maybe the problem common to both is the stab? I just glued the wing and stab in the slots without checking so I think I'll go take some measurements.

Motorman 8)
Well yours is electric and mines not.  I did use incidence meters on mine.  I'll still give the pushrod a try.  But the incidence meters may have been a waist of time then.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 06, 2018, 02:44:59 AM
Are you going to shorten the push rod? I shortened mine so with the elevator is neutral the flaps are hanging down about 3/16" and it still turns tighter on outsides. That's why I'm thinking it's thrust line or the stab.
First thing I'll try is lengthen the push rod from the flaps to elevator pushrod. And hope it still flys straight and level. I guess my last resort will be decrease line spacing on the down line only. I had the same problem on a green box nobler and never did fix it.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 07, 2018, 01:49:42 AM
I just took a couple of trim flights and the up thrust fixed  the turning problem and it doesn't hunt anymore.
Did yours hunt from the beginning?  Mine don't hunt.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on June 07, 2018, 12:39:35 PM
It almost sounds like Chris's problem is that the bellcrank wasn't neutral when the flaps are. I doubt that he would miss that, but it would account for more authority one way than the other.

Does the same handle deflection give the same flap and elevator deflection?
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 07, 2018, 01:21:30 PM
It almost sounds like Chris's problem is that the bellcrank wasn't neutral when the flaps are. I doubt that he would miss that, but it would account for more authority one way than the other.

Does the same handle deflection give the same flap and elevator deflection?
The relationship of the bellcrank doesn't matter where it is. Well I suppose it would of the bellcrank was at the end of its throw it would start being different but you would have to have to really off for that.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on June 07, 2018, 02:33:55 PM
I would think that the less your total bellcrank travel, full up to full down, the more a little offset would matter, but I'm no expert.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on June 07, 2018, 05:23:26 PM
I would think that the less your total bellcrank travel, full up to full down, the more a little offset would matter, but I'm no expert.
I don't know, I usually set them up pretty square to get the same travel up and down. Anywho when I get back to messing with it I'll let you guys know what happens.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on June 15, 2018, 11:09:05 AM
I finally got to fly my SV11 yesterday. I set my timer for about 2 1/2 minutes so I was able to get in 4 short trim flights with my two batteries. First flight was smoking fast and pulling like a freight train. I thought I had set the governor to 9800 which should have given me laps around 5.4 seconds but it was more in the 4.2 time frame. Second flight I turned down the motor a bit and got in a few loops to see how it felt. It was still in the 5.0 range though. Turned it down again and ended up about 5.2/lap. A few more maneuvers that all felt fairly decent. Last flight I forgot to turn down the motor any more. Flew the remaining pattern maneuvers I hadn’t yet tried and it went pretty good. I put the batteries on charge and flew my Twister for a while.
I turned down the motor a little bit more and set the flight time to about 5 1/2 minutes. I was able to put in two complete somewhat respectable patterns on the next two flights. Granted, I’ve still flown less than 20 complete patterns as I’m still learning it. The SV11 is much better and easier to fly than my current Twister. Really have to work to get a decent attempt out of the Twister whereas the SV11 is much easier. Squares and the hourglass are kicking my butt, but there is a glimmer of hope for them now.

As far as the assembly of the plane, there are several areas that could stand improvement. First and foremost in my mind is the motor mounting. While the ply isn’t lite-ply, it is a long way from the good aircraft plywood we are used to. Bolting the motor in on the bench, I could feel the wood crushing way too easily. Not only that, but putting a washer on the mounting bolts caused interference with the prop drive collet. I ended up machining a piece of 2.5mm carbon plate to cover the whole mounting area. The downside is, my plate has blocked all airflow through the motor and it comes down hotter than I’d like. If I cut air passages similar to what is in the ply mounts, I’ll lose the load spreading properties I gained by adding the carbon plate. A 4mm carbon motor mounting plate built into the nose rather than the ply would have been awesome.
I knew of two guys that had their flap to elevator pushrods fail during construction so I stress tested mine fairly well. It survived so I used it as is.
It would be nice to have some extra covering to cover the seams where the canopy section attaches and where the piece goes on over the stab. Those seams just really stick out to me.
The instructions showed sliding the ESC in from the front and going under the battery tray. The former at the front of the tray had no holes in it where wires nor an ESC could enter. Not sure what was planned there.
I ended up putting my timer on the battery door with Velcro. It was the only place I could figure out where I had access to adjust it.
Maybe if I need a replacement, I’ll go for the ARC and do a little more modding in the nose section to alleviate some of the issues I found.
My new favorite plane!

Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Matt Brown on July 06, 2018, 07:21:43 PM
So I’m heading to Muncie early Sunday morning to fly Intermediate. Only real issue I’m having is it gets stupid light on the lines after the second corner of the hourglass. It pretty much guarantees a very low score on that maneuver. I don’t care as much about the score as I worry about how ugly the maneuver is.

FWIW, I used CA hinges on mine. They are a bit stiff but so far I can’t feel any downside while flying.

Wish me luck!
Matt
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on July 06, 2018, 08:13:37 PM
Ok, so I pulled out all the hinge pins and replaced them with .025" music wire. Didn't really get much better. I hope it's not the tubing on the flap horn because that would be fairly impossible to fix. Then I cut into the wing tip and removed the lead out slider. Good thing because it was almost cracked in half. While it was out the controls were a little better  but still too sticky. Made a new slider out of nylon. Next step take off the canopy and cut out the cockpit to get to the flap horn. After I disconnect that it will tell me if it's still flaps or something on the bellcrank. This is getting to be like a hobby.

Motorman 8)
Hi, MM-
Is this a new sv11 arf that you assembled, or one bought rtf preassembled from someone else? It sounds like you didn't assemble it because if you did, I'd assume that you'd make sure everything worked right at each assembly step. And then you'd know if something was sticky or binding, i would think.
Hope you find the issue with it.
Watching,
Target
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on July 06, 2018, 11:10:33 PM
I had a clicking after epoxying the wing together.  It was dripped epoxy on the bellcrank, luckily I found it before I glued it into the fuse.

I adjusted my pushrod to the elevator by making it longer and it seems to have fixed my tighter outside loops.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on July 07, 2018, 12:30:21 PM
Glad you found the problem, motorman. I'll be on the lookout when i assemble my arc.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on July 07, 2018, 08:59:55 PM
That's interesting. I shortened my elevator push rod to give it less flap/lift in the outsides and it didn't work. I think my problem is handle adjustment. I got a set of lines made up that were the same exact length and the lead outs were so far out of wack I have a 2" line clip on the down line and I still have to feed in too much up for take off.
After all this time I finally put that crank in my Testors McCoy. 29  that you straightened. It runs very smooth,  you did a great job!  Thanks again!

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Chris Fretz on August 18, 2018, 07:22:55 PM
Just a heads up,  I had the wheel and wheel pant fall of in flight.  Didnt end pretty.  Gear got ripped off on the landing. I'm changing the wheel pant nuts to nylon lock nuts. I used blue threadlocker on them and the gear mount screws.

Chris
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 18, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
I finally got to fly my SV11 yesterday. I set my timer for about 2 1/2 minutes so I was able to get in 4 short trim flights with my two batteries. First flight was smoking fast and pulling like a freight train. I thought I had set the governor to 9800 which should have given me laps around 5.4 seconds but it was more in the 4.2 time frame. Second flight I turned down the motor a bit and got in a few loops to see how it felt. It was still in the 5.0 range though. Turned it down again and ended up about 5.2/lap. A few more maneuvers that all felt fairly decent. Last flight I forgot to turn down the motor any more. Flew the remaining pattern maneuvers I hadn’t yet tried and it went pretty good. I put the batteries on charge and flew my Twister for a while.
I turned down the motor a little bit more and set the flight time to about 5 1/2 minutes. I was able to put in two complete somewhat respectable patterns on the next two flights. Granted, I’ve still flown less than 20 complete patterns as I’m still learning it. The SV11 is much better and easier to fly than my current Twister. Really have to work to get a decent attempt out of the Twister whereas the SV11 is much easier. Squares and the hourglass are kicking my butt, but there is a glimmer of hope for them now.

As far as the assembly of the plane, there are several areas that could stand improvement. First and foremost in my mind is the motor mounting. While the ply isn’t lite-ply, it is a long way from the good aircraft plywood we are used to. Bolting the motor in on the bench, I could feel the wood crushing way too easily. Not only that, but putting a washer on the mounting bolts caused interference with the prop drive collet. I ended up machining a piece of 2.5mm carbon plate to cover the whole mounting area. The downside is, my plate has blocked all airflow through the motor and it comes down hotter than I’d like. If I cut air passages similar to what is in the ply mounts, I’ll lose the load spreading properties I gained by adding the carbon plate. A 4mm carbon motor mounting plate built into the nose rather than the ply would have been awesome.
I knew of two guys that had their flap to elevator pushrods fail during construction so I stress tested mine fairly well. It survived so I used it as is.
It would be nice to have some extra covering to cover the seams where the canopy section attaches and where the piece goes on over the stab. Those seams just really stick out to me.
The instructions showed sliding the ESC in from the front and going under the battery tray. The former at the front of the tray had no holes in it where wires nor an ESC could enter. Not sure what was planned there.
I ended up putting my timer on the battery door with Velcro. It was the only place I could figure out where I had access to adjust it.
Maybe if I need a replacement, I’ll go for the ARC and do a little more modding in the nose section to alleviate some of the issues I found.
My new favorite plane!

Matt

Matt you are at the perfect time to move up on SV11. I am of the opinion that if the plane is better that you you can improve. You must have room to grow in to. SV12 was my first competitive bird and I loved it. My skills skyrocketed from that time on.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: peabody on October 19, 2018, 05:05:57 AM
Chris.....that's an issue with most of the Brodak full bodied ARF/ARCs, as well as SV kits.
Ward VanDuzer used a long (maybe 4") piece of spruce, which ran forward through F-2. He used it to fasten his cowl as well. A lot stronger solution than simply adding more glue and glass.

Have fun!
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 19, 2018, 07:25:12 AM
Just a heads up,  I had the wheel and wheel pant fall of in flight.  Didnt end pretty.  Gear got ripped off on the landing. I'm changing the wheel pant nuts to nylon lock nuts. I used blue threadlocker on them and the gear mount screws.

Chris

Chris you can tell that the ARF manufacturer left the option open for a tuned pipe model. I zoomed in on your picture and I definitely find that inadequate. Not only it is inadequate but on top of that it is badly glued. If you look at the glue joints you can tel that.
I would remove the box add some hardwood and modify the existing. Extend the hardwood back to get a larger footprint for strength.

Some of you are saying that it turns tighter outside than inside and that is something I expect to happen. The flaps horn is oriented at 90 degrees but if you look at your push-rod angle it goes up from inside the wing it sweeps up to the attachment point. That geometry will make the flaps go up more than it would go down for same bellcrank deflection angle up and down hence less impute up and more impute down. You need a better flap horn to get the equal response up and down.  To achieve equal response if you look from the side the horn should be oriented perpendicular in reference to the push-rod when flaps are in the neutral position. 
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 19, 2018, 08:24:41 AM
Well yours is electric and mines not.  I did use incidence meters on mine.  I'll still give the pushrod a try.  But the incidence meters may have been a waist of time then.

No not a waste of time at all.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on October 19, 2018, 10:45:41 AM
Some of you are saying that it turns tighter outside than inside and that is something I expect to happen. The flaps horn is oriented at 90 degrees but if you look at your push-rod angle it goes up from inside the wing it sweeps up to the attachment point. That geometry will make the flaps go up more than it would go down for same bellcrank deflection angle up and down hence less impute up and more impute down. You need a better flap horn to get the equal response up and down.  To achieve equal response if you look from the side the horn should be oriented perpendicular in reference to the push-rod when flaps are in the neutral position.

Can you post a link of a commercially available flap horn that would achieve what you are referring to?
I think that you mean the style that have the dog-leg linkage arm, right?

R,
target
PS. Going to fly DLG's now.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 19, 2018, 02:26:30 PM
Can you post a link of a commercially available flap horn that would achieve what you are referring to?
I think that you mean the style that have the dog-leg linkage arm, right?

R,
target
PS. Going to fly DLG's now.

They work but you can use the original too. Check the picture. I am amusing the arm on push rod from elevator to flaps is the same (for example 1in on flaps and also 1in on elevator).
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Kevin Muckleroy on October 19, 2018, 06:36:11 PM
Isn't this the same? From Stunt Hanger Hobby.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: MikeyPratt on October 26, 2018, 11:25:49 AM
Hey, I like the gentle lady and wanderer! Lol. I'm actually building my son a Falke DLG. he wants it all black with a "Flash" logo on it.

I’m more of the Riser & Riser 100 type.

Later,
Mikey
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 26, 2018, 12:02:10 PM
Isn't this the same? From Stunt Hanger Hobby.

Kevin technically yes but notice the key missing element which is the nonexistent wire bend for flaps. Obviously for a reason (all planes have different fuselage widths). So when you bend those wires you have to take in account the 90 degree angle reference.  What I drew in the diagram uses the existing stuff.
What you have in your picture works as well. That horn keeps the hole for flap to elevator push-rod  at a more normal 90 degrees and will be more friendly if you want to adjust the elevator throw with a slider of some kind.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on October 26, 2018, 09:08:12 PM
TDM, not to be argumentative, but to do what you suggest, won't we have to re-solder the horn re-clocked to the bends then?
I assume this is what you intend. I can't imagine doing it any other way.
So this should work and not end up with a horn that might slip on the flap "joiner" rod?

Thanks. Sorry to be a pest.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 29, 2018, 06:39:56 AM
First of all there are no stupid questions and no one is a pest.
Target I don't know the geometry you have in your push rod setup or the type of push-rods you have or the ability to adjust your system. I can only assume based on posts posts which suggest a 90 degree horn perpendicular to the flap wire bend. If that is the case and you have to square reference on the flaps and elevator then leave it alone and bias the bellcrank by shortening the pushrod from the bellcrank to the flaps push rod. I think there is the easiest fix. Obviously you have to recenter the handle after that. If yo have a single 1/8 in wire you can cut it with Dremel and brass tubing (actually two pieces tube inside of tube so you have wire tube then tube outside that tube) and solder back in pace, or splice and use copper wire to wrap the splice and solder that. Before you lock yourself in a setting check to have equal flaps deflection up and down for equal angular deflection on bellcrank.
Now if this is your first SV and you are just learning and improving and this is no big deal (just a little unbalance and not excessive) as i saw in a video posted in this thread I would leave it alone practice a lot and on the next one make yourself a system with better geometry in it. Or make it a winter fix it project. I have my winter fix it project where i have to adjust the landing gear position and bring it down a little for more prop clearance.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: TDM on October 29, 2018, 07:26:50 AM
That's interesting. I shortened my elevator push rod to give it less flap/lift in the outsides and it didn't work.

Kind of expected that to happen. You are looking in the wrong place. But you are looking in the right system. You should not look at the flaps to elevator but at the bellcrank to flaps pushrod instead. What you did only puts pressure on flying surfaces which some of us will use that bias to some effect to combat hunting. Leave the flap and elevator symmetric (deflection) and 0-0 on both of them so the pane turns equally. Bias the bellcrank to flap shorter to get the equal turn. Bellcrank to flaps pushrod short (bellcrank neutral clockwise if you view from top), this bias gives less up control more down, and vice versa. Handle has nothing to do with it, the only things you can adjust at handle is neutral point and spacing for sensitivity.
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: John Rist on December 25, 2018, 07:36:25 PM


Pic is of the Hunt G10 electric mount trimmed to be epoxied on the back of the wooden motor mount. I applied glue then bolted in an old motor casing to clamp it in place. Everything was coated with release agents so hopefully it will come apart tomorrow. 

MM 8)

Did you hag out some of the wood mount so that screws set on top of the fiberglass not the wood????
Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: MikeyPratt on January 12, 2019, 12:28:07 PM
Hi Chris,
One to one is ideal for the SV-11 as per Randy.  If you build an SV-11 under 55 ounces (including the battery & flight ready) then it may be helpful to increase the elevator throw.  I've built a number of different models under 50 ounces and they all required the controls to be set up very quick (more elevator than flap).  I don't think any of the ARF or ARC will make it to this range, from what I've seen most are in mid 60 ounce range flight ready.  Very good flying at that weight.

Mikey

Title: Re: SV-11
Post by: Target on January 12, 2019, 03:38:19 PM
Thank you.