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Author Topic: Smoothie leadout repair advice please  (Read 1451 times)

Offline Electric George

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Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« on: December 16, 2024, 04:23:16 AM »
I picked up a used Brodak Smoothie ARF and although it is in very good condition, on closer inspection I discovered one of the leadouts has some some broken strands in it. I replace the leadouts on unassembled arfs and so I am familiar with this process  but this already being assembled, I am seeking advice, please. Anyone been through this already?

Does the bellcrank have to be removed? This would really be a nightmare... major surgery to the fuselage and wing.

 Is it possible to remove some centre sheeting from the wing to access the bellcrank and leadout, cut and replace? Or would it be possible to cut a section of the wing covering (between a rib bay) and wrap a piece of L.O. wire onto the leadout already in place? ( I wonder if this would snag on a rib during movement).

The wire broken strands area remains outside the wing in its travel. Is there a way of reinforcing this area so that it does not need to be replaced?
Funny thing is...I promised myself 'No more ARFS'

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2024, 07:39:52 AM »
Have you discovered the cause of the broken wires?  That has to be fixed too. My first thought was to come up with some form of splice.  I made a quick search of the rules and found this under Control Line General: "Splices at any point along the lines are not considered a “termination” and are not permitted."  There might be some verbiage in the PA rules, I didn't look.

Depending on what plans you have for the plane I would either splice it if not for competition or replace the bellcrank and leadouts. If I remember, the Smoothie had the 3" VECO type bellcrank on a flat plate mount.   If that is the case you are free to use any words you would like to describe the situation, you just can't print them here!

Ken

PS - I had an ARF Nobler that I decided to retrofit Morris controls after flying it and liking what I had.  I Disassembled the wing fuselage and took the wing out.  Cut the "monokote" from the center section to the first open bay and removed the top planking.  Except for the monokote overlap you could not tell it had been reworked.  I also converted it to a floating mount.
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Offline Electric George

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2024, 04:13:46 AM »
Have you discovered the cause of the broken wires?  That has to be fixed too. My first thought was to come up with some form of splice.  I made a quick search of the rules and found this under Control Line General: "Splices at any point along the lines are not considered a “termination” and are not permitted."  There might be some verbiage in the PA rules, I didn't look.

Depending on what plans you have for the plane I would either splice it if not for competition or replace the bellcrank and leadouts. If I remember, the Smoothie had the 3" VECO type bellcrank on a flat plate mount.   If that is the case you are free to use any words you would like to describe the situation, you just can't print them here!

Ken



PS - I had an ARF Nobler that I decided to retrofit Morris controls after flying it and liking what I had.  I Disassembled the wing fuselage and took the wing out.  Cut the "monokote" from the center section to the first open bay and removed the top planking.  Except for the monokote overlap you could not tell it had been reworked.  I also converted it to a floating mount.

Hi Ken,

A splicing could be the solution but having looked it over again I think it would be difficult to do a good job of the splice without it ending up fouling the wingtip during the full range of movement.
I am leaning towards cutting the underside covering and reducing the length of the lead out wire and terminating in the usual way using a thimble and wrapping. An extension will then be added by winding a piece of lead out wire around the same thimble and wrapping and routing out the wing and terminated in the usual way. If it looks like there is a chance of the thimble snagging a rib in the full range of movement then I will add a card (light) tunnel between the ribs for the new ends to travel along and thus provide a smooth surface for the thimble to glide along should the lines become slack. Seems like this could work or am I missing something?

I admire your commitment to improving the Nobler. If all else fails then I will have to start hacking!

Offline John Paris

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2024, 06:48:35 AM »
George,
There were problems with the crimps on the early ARFs and Brodak began to include a leadout replacement sets with those sold later on.  For my Smoothie I was able to remove the bellcrank before assembly and replace without too much difficulty.  However I did have an early Vector that had a problem that I found while in storage (I hang some by the leadouts and this one had full up one day when I looked at it) with the crimp failing at the bellcrank.  I ended up cutting the bottom of the airplane open at the wing sheeting with the bellcrank fully swung toward the wingtip and replacing the leadouts (both) using quality crimps.  Perhaps a similar approach could be used on your Smoothie.

Good luck,
John
« Last Edit: December 17, 2024, 07:07:52 AM by John Paris »
John Paris
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2024, 07:18:40 AM »
George:

By now you have probably started on a plan of action.  After reading John's post I think you have no choice but to replace the leadouts.  It also looks like the center planking is wider than the space you need to fix it so it will have to come off of the bottom inboard.  No easy fix I can see.

Ken
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Offline John Skukalek

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2024, 07:57:43 AM »
While storing my Smoothie arf by hanging it from the leadouts,  i found it on the floor. The leadouts failed. I cut into the bottem to access the bellcrank and replaced the leadouts using a "quality crimp" as John P mentioned.

Offline Electric George

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2024, 08:50:24 AM »
Thanks everyone for your replies. It is really useful to hear the thoughts of others.


Many thanks to both Johns, your experience of the crimp failures leads me to believe that a complete change of the lead outs are required. The fact that you were both able to get in to the Bellcrank to replace the wires, after cutting away the centre sheeting, is very useful to know and I do think this is now the strategy I will employ.

I am in no rush and so I will plan the repair and proceed when the building board is next clear. 

Thanks again all.

Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2024, 10:16:49 AM »
I have 2 ARF kits in my stash. A Top Flite Nobler and Brodak Oriental. When the time comes, I plan to replace the lead outs on both models. I plan to use the replacement method offered by Dennis Adamisin. Seems relatively straight forward. With this method, the wing covering does not need to be removed.

The Oriental kit already has an adjustable lead out guide and outer wing tip weight box. But the Nobler does not. I may also install an adjustable lead out guide and wing tip weight box on the Nobler. But would have to remove the wing covering which might be a good idea anyway due to the age of the kit.

Offline Electric George

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2024, 04:14:16 AM »
I have 2 ARF kits in my stash. A Top Flite Nobler and Brodak Oriental. When the time comes, I plan to replace the lead outs on both models. I plan to use the replacement method offered by Dennis Adamisin. Seems relatively straight forward. With this method, the wing covering does not need to be removed.

The Oriental kit already has an adjustable lead out guide and outer wing tip weight box. But the Nobler does not. I may also install an adjustable lead out guide and wing tip weight box on the Nobler. But would have to remove the wing covering which might be a good idea anyway due to the age of the kit.

Hi Colin,

I have replaced the leadouts on unassembled Nobler and Oriental arfs (and the bellcrank in the case of the Nobler) with no real problems. The only real fiddly bit was getting the Oriental Bell crank on and off with the right washers in a tight space. I think you will find it fairly easy when the time comes. No need to remove covering.
I am sure Ken can advise you regarding adjustable leadout mods and wingtip box on the Nobler.
I didn't plan to obtain any more ARFS, let alone a pre assembled one, but well I live and learn! 

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2024, 08:16:51 AM »
If you have added an adjustable leadout to a plane that was built for fixed you already know this.  Once they are movable, they will almost certainly hit something inside once moved.  I highly recommend taking the covering off of the inboard tip so that you can do it right.  I use an offshoot of Dennis's method for replacing leadouts without removing the covering with a twist.  I use a 36" 3/16 or so aluminum tube and wrap it in a minimum of 100 grit sandpaper for as much as you need to go from the tip to the bellcrank.  Before you take the old leadouts off or after you install the new ones, doesn't matter as long as the ends are off.  Slide the tube over the leadout and gently sand away any obstructions from the full forward position to the full aft.  Both will probably have wood that will become a nightmare if the leadouts are left to saw through it on their own.  If you do it gently you will not break anything.  Record it as you are sanding.  The harmonics are hilarious.  Publish it as an "Ode to a Crappy Crimp"  LL~

As for the type of adjustable.  The oriental tip should be simple but the Nobler is too thin.  I suggest adding 1/8" caps to the top and bottom and sanding them to fit then using the long grommet in the hole trick.  There is a reason the Gieseke had tip blocks!  y1

Ken

for what it is worth (not much)  I saw Dee fly his "original" at the '64 Nats.
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Offline Colin McRae

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2024, 10:52:42 AM »
If you have added an adjustable leadout to a plane that was built for fixed you already know this.  Once they are movable, they will almost certainly hit something inside once moved.  I highly recommend taking the covering off of the inboard tip so that you can do it right.  I use an offshoot of Dennis's method for replacing leadouts without removing the covering with a twist.  I use a 36" 3/16 or so aluminum tube and wrap it in a minimum of 100 grit sandpaper for as much as you need to go from the tip to the bellcrank.  Before you take the old leadouts off or after you install the new ones, doesn't matter as long as the ends are off.  Slide the tube over the leadout and gently sand away any obstructions from the full forward position to the full aft.  Both will probably have wood that will become a nightmare if the leadouts are left to saw through it on their own.  If you do it gently you will not break anything.  Record it as you are sanding.  The harmonics are hilarious.  Publish it as an "Ode to a Crappy Crimp"  LL~

As for the type of adjustable.  The oriental tip should be simple but the Nobler is too thin.  I suggest adding 1/8" caps to the top and bottom and sanding them to fit then using the long grommet in the hole trick.  There is a reason the Gieseke had tip blocks!  y1

Ken

for what it is worth (not much)  I saw Dee fly his "original" at the '64 Nats.

Thx for the tip on adj lead outs on the Nobler. That an internal rub might happen w/ adj lead outs. (Again, the rookie builder in me !!)

I'm actually 50/50 on adj lead outs for the Nobler. I have another somewhat beat up Nobler ARF that flies reasonably well at the fixed lead out location. Maybe adj lead outs are not really necessary. I need to think on it.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2024, 12:38:21 PM »
Maybe adj lead outs are not really necessary. I need to think on it.
Don't think too much.  No two planes are alike and with the ARF's they are all in the same place.  If you have any hope of making it fly really well you have to adjust the CG to your liking and the leadouts follow the CG. A movement as little as 1/8" can make a huge difference in how a plane flies.  You won't regret it.

Ken
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2024, 01:41:33 PM »
Have you determined what caused the broken strands?

I was always worried about something like that happening.  When I used solid leadouts, I went with a small brass tube for the guide.  Then, I went to a nylon or Teflon slider piece.  Now I use stranded leadouts because of the chance of bending the solids.  I use the nylon or Teflon slider for the stranded leadouts and never had a problem with broken strands.  A few guys I fly with have put hundreds of flights on stranded leadouts with no broken strands so it looks like they last a long time.

I have seen stranded leadouts with a piece of brass tube for the guide but I wonder how long that will go until the rubbing produces broken strands.

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2024, 01:46:28 PM »
Ken has given you good advice.  It might seem like too much work to make an adjustable feature but if you ever need it, you will be glad you put it in.  I never build without adjustable leadouts, tip weight box, and a way to adjust elevator relative to flaps.

I had two planes with an annoying yaw oscillation in corners.  Moving the leadouts forward fixed that.  With no adjustable leadouts, I would have ended up with two very unsatisfying planes.

Offline Electric George

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2024, 03:13:30 AM »
Have you determined what caused the broken strands?

I was always worried about something like that happening.  When I used solid leadouts, I went with a small brass tube for the guide.  Then, I went to a nylon or Teflon slider piece.  Now I use stranded leadouts because of the chance of bending the solids.  I use the nylon or Teflon slider for the stranded leadouts and never had a problem with broken strands.  A few guys I fly with have put hundreds of flights on stranded leadouts with no broken strands so it looks like they last a long time.

I have seen stranded leadouts with a piece of brass tube for the guide but I wonder how long that will go until the rubbing produces broken strands.

No. The broken strands appear on the leadout past the point where it may come in contact with the wingtip and there is no evidence of them touching on the tip and so I can't see how anything could have come in contact with it to damage it. Perhaps it is just the quality of the wire?

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2024, 12:01:36 PM »
If the frayed strands are outside of the tip, and that part of the leadout would never reach the leadout guide at full travel, then it could be the quality of the wire.  Or, since it is a used plane, maybe the previous owner(s) damaged it from poor handling.

I have seen instances where the leadout guide is well inside the tip so that the leadouts can rub on something right at the edge of the slot.  There could be something inside the tip, just beyond the slot, that the wire was rubbing on but you can't see that unless you inspect closely.  Maybe the leadouts were rubbing on a sharp edge at the top or bottom of the leadout slot.  I chamfer that edge to lessen the chance of the leadout rubbing there.

Check everything out very well so you do not have a repeat of frayed leadouts.

Offline Electric George

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Re: Smoothie leadout repair advice please
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2024, 08:04:11 AM »
If the frayed strands are outside of the tip, and that part of the leadout would never reach the leadout guide at full travel, then it could be the quality of the wire.  Or, since it is a used plane, maybe the previous owner(s) damaged it from poor handling.

I have seen instances where the leadout guide is well inside the tip so that the leadouts can rub on something right at the edge of the slot.  There could be something inside the tip, just beyond the slot, that the wire was rubbing on but you can't see that unless you inspect closely.  Maybe the leadouts were rubbing on a sharp edge at the top or bottom of the leadout slot.  I chamfer that edge to lessen the chance of the leadout rubbing there.

Check everything out very well so you do not have a repeat of frayed leadouts.

Hi Jim,
Yes, I am going to replace the leadouts. I will check everything out carefully but I do think it could be a wire quality problem or the line has been mishandled as the fraying does not travel back as far as the wingtip. I totally agree, replacing the leadouts once is enough!


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