Author Topic: Smoothie ARF strip and re-do (Read 7563 times)

Larry Renger · « **on:** December 07, 2007, 09:41:04 AM »

Despite careful sealing and cleaning of my Smoothie, it suddenly started to shed covering in several places. I decided to strip and recover it. Most of the stripping process was distressingly easy, though there were the expected stubborn spots where the covering got epoxie or CA glue under it.

The real glitch was that where it got oil under the covering, the adhesive stayed on the balsa and formed a sticky barrier. I finally solved that last night with Acetone. That and some sanding got the remaining glop off.

Now for some re-sanding, filling, perhaps fillets, and definitely lightening the vertical tail and rear fuselage (I had to use my heaviest muffler plus 3/4 ounce nose weight, and would like to rid the plane of some of that)

Naturally, in handling, I managed to punch a hole in the leading edge sheeting, and that has to be filled.

One other point was that the leading edge contour was uneven and sharper than I like. That has been remedied.

More as it develops!

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:08:10 AM »

One of my CL buddies has the Smoothie arf with Fox 35--what else. Anyway, when he assembled it, trusting soul that he is, he didn't check the wing incidence.

The Smoothie now has been stripped/dis-assembled and will be re-assembled and re-covered, I think, with silkspan/dope.

When it was first flown, it turned like a combat model, at least in one direction--wow!!

Jim

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2007, 12:09:22 PM »

Think I'm teaching this dog (me) to say ARC, ARC, ARC. Better to straighten these babies out at the get go. Much easier fix. Not unlike old kit building in a way, when die smashed parts needed truing up, and bad balsa was tossed and replaced.

Rotten · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2007, 02:19:24 PM »

Here is my Smoothie with an LA 40, It was an ARF stripped immediately like all the ARF's I get it seems to be harder and harder to get ARC's so I just get the ARF and strip it as soon as I get it. It don't take long to peel that cheap china kote off.

peabody · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2007, 06:37:10 PM »

My ARFSmoothie worked reaal well....powered by a "Randy" OS .40 FP and equipped with "Hampshire" tab.

So well that it didn't concern memuch when it drizzled a bit.....

The covering ejected from the tail surfaces....kinda hard to steer....

Bill Hummel · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2007, 05:59:25 AM »

We've re-done a couple of ARFs to silkspan and dope, fixing control systems along the way. Looking back, it almost seems easier to build from a kit or from scratch. By the time you get through "fixing" everything, I'm pretty sure we can build 'em better/lighter. Perhaps the next generation of ARF stunters will be a "step up" in quality. Not bad for the money, but not quite "right"...The Smoothie we're re-doing right now will use a Fox 35 with ceramic piston/liner...next spring!

tom hampshire · « **Reply #6 on:** December 09, 2007, 07:51:14 AM »

Rich - Its a Fancher wart, not a Hampshire tab. I only get credit for stealing it. Tom H.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2008, 10:07:33 PM »

What with the holidays and all, I only just got back to work on the Smoothie. I patched the hole that magically appeared in the LE sheeting in the interim, and have started adding fillets.

One thing I did do in addition to simple re-finish, is I reshaped the leading edge. It was pretty uneven and way sharper than I like. Plenty of wood available for removal in the re-shaping process. Looks good now!

I am toying with the idea of lightening the vertical tail and aft fuselage with cut-outs. I needed some noseweight before. Any comments out there?

Bill Little · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2008, 10:15:10 AM »

Hi Larry,

Something along the lines of the *windows* in the '57 Green Box Nobler fuselage? And removing the centers of some of the tail and replacing with ribs?? I am not sure of the construction of the ARF Smoothie, not having seen one *naked*.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2008, 08:56:32 AM »

Obviously, I HAVE seen the Smoothie nekkid.

The horizontal tail has ribs, but the vertical is solid (and hard!). I was indeed thinking of Nobler style fuselage windows, but triangular, not square, so as to keep torsional stability.

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2008, 11:22:28 PM »

I don't think empanage cut-outs are the answer. They would be closer to the CG compared with the vertical fin and I don't think would make that much difference. The vertical fin is another story. It is relatively large in the Smoothy and if yours is heavy wood, just replace the whole thing with one made of contest balsa. I doubt it will be any heavier than a built up one using heavy wood. You could also scallop the trailing edge of the elevators between the ribs, or even the leading edge of the stab. Every little bit helps. If possible, use an FP

w/ a tube muffler (heavy compared to a Fox 35) and Tru-Turn (heavy compared to a Brodak) spinner. Easy nose weight.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2008, 10:36:09 AM »

I expect you are correct regarding the fuselage cut-outs.

Here it is, near the end of Feb. and I am STILL leaching oil out of the wood. K2R and a heat gun keep getting results. It HAS to dry up eventually?

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2008, 11:42:21 AM »

One constant........... normal air is always lighter than wood.

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2008, 04:52:30 AM »

I just purchased 6 rolls of Towercote on special for $6 a roll. My intention is to strip and recover a couple of ARFs, truing up the wood-- warping wings straight using CA run in slits to keep wings straight, if needed etc., checking controls and fixing if necessary, reinforcing motor mounts-- possibly fiberglassing front of profiles. In other words looking the plane over naked of covering and upgrading here and there. I plan to do the fuses in dope and silkspan, covering the wings in towercote, which tho cheap, I expect won't pull off like the covering made in China. Might even use something like balsalock on wings as an undercoat to make sure everything stays stuck. As a sidebar, these planes would then qualify under present interpretation of BOM. IMHO. Tho I'd use them only as an emergency back up in PAMPA. My "serious" stunters are scratch built or kit built. One never knows tho. Possible the good stuff isn't working too well on a given day... happened to me more than once.

posthole_digger · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2008, 06:26:53 AM »

I think you will find that Towerkote will lift at the seams if it comes into contact with raw fuel - or even exhaust. You need to coat it with comething - at least the seams. I've given up on it. It might be useful for an electric. Also, it is easy to burn holes in it with a heat gun.

Paul

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2008, 08:49:26 AM »

Thanks for the heads up Paul. As I posted the above it occurred to me that towerkote may be same as Chinakote. Hence the price. Will see. Balsaloc has worked well for at least one club member, sealing seams and sticking down lifted kote. So. I will try. The Tower stuff is a low temp plastic, burning holes, not a big surprise. Monokote costs twice as much, of course. But it can be abused with high heat.

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on February 26, 2008, 08:49:26 AM

Thanks for the heads up Paul. As I posted the above it occurred to me that towerkote may be same as Chinakote. Hence the price. Will see. Balsaloc has worked well for at least one club member, sealing seams and sticking down lifted kote. So. I will try. The Tower stuff is a low temp plastic, burning holes, not a big surprise. Monokote costs twice as much, of course. But it can be abused with high heat.

Ahhhhhhhh.... stripping an ARF and meeting the BOM....... here we go again! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Dennis, it doesn't matter to me, seriously......)

john e. holliday · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2008, 08:44:25 PM »

Sorry to all, but, stripping an ARF to bare wood does not make it an ARC. I know from experience from last year. The plane is a Brodak Oriental that has been rebuilt 4 times and the last time was stripped so it could be refinished. DOC Holliday

Mike Foley · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2008, 08:41:14 AM »

>>>Sorry to all, but, stripping an ARF to bare wood does not make it an ARC<<<<

This statement doesn't make any sense, of course it would be a ARC. If a model is without covering and ready to be covered then what would else would it be called?

For instance if I had a ARF Cardinal and stripped the china kote as well as lots of other changes I would call it at ARC seven days a week. At any contest I would state that it is a ARC and I did the finish including the covering. It would not be considered a ARF according the AMA interpretation of requiring only a few minutes of assembly

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2008, 02:48:57 PM »

Several of the PRO-BOMers believe once an ARF always an ARF.. Personally I feel if if you pull an ARF out of the trash, rebuild and recover it you built it. The way around the ARF/ARC question is sell the ARF to a buddy for a buck, help him strip it. Then buy the ARC back for a buck.. You bought an ARC right

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2008, 05:33:42 PM »

It's starting to seem that it would have been better just to start with a Brodak Smoothie kit and avoid all controversy. Building new is a lot more enjoyable than trying to rebuild or overhaul or re-cover, or whatever IMHO

and if it ain't right, you only have yourself to blame!

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2008, 06:51:53 PM »

Shortage of ARCs at the moment. At least at Brodak. So for most designs the ARC option is not possible right now. Forget about distinguishing between a stripped ARF that is recovered and an ARC. Actually, you might have an argument about the exclusion of ARFs period, from PAMPA competition. Seems to me the infamous NATs memo just about legitimizes an ARF as qualifying for PAMPA BOM events.

Over the long term a kit built plane or a scratch built plane, will, if built carefully, out live an ARF. IMHO. Especially true for the first generation ARF/ARCs. Durability is essential when trimming and learning a plane for use in competition. Which means many practice flights. Also, when settings are made, a well built plane is more likely to keep those settings. A trade off of time verses quality. Don't know about you, but it takes me weeks to construct a wing. Pulling one out of a box beats that time wise. A badly warped ARF wing is one thing. Return that. But a typical balsa wing, even one built on a jig, will need some tweaking. At least when built by me. An ARF/ARC wing as purchased is often as straight as a wing I can build. The controls are another matter. ARF controls need to be inspected for durable glue joints. But the basic quality of wood construction is usually pretty good.

Mike Foley · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2008, 08:57:24 PM »

When it comes to taking sides between the Bom non Bom issues I personally couldn't care less one way or another. I have no desire to spend the bucks to go to Muncie where it really has a meaning. However it boggles my mind that some people want to debate that a ARF that is converted to a ARC is still a ARF. If that is the case I will start a business selling Top Flite Noblers that have been stripped, re boxed and sold as ARC's. Now there is no arguing the point and subject becomes mute. Of course no one would buy any Noblers for me because I would charge at least double retail price for the time spent taking off the China Kote. I think people can see where this would lead and obviously the AMA's intent on the wording was to allow uncovered models BOM points. Therefore the way I read the AMA's interpretation is covered models no BOM and uncovered models BOM, "Simple" Therefore I would not have a problem declaring a "ARC" Nobler for appearance points at a contest, providing I did the finish work

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2008, 02:08:11 AM »

Winter isn't it fellas, at least where I am. Not much flying. Time to build. Cabin fever. Reading over the bottom half of this thread gave me a chuckle. Got to hand it to Doc Holliday for coming up with his ingenious, irksome point. Whether serious or not. This evening (or morning?) at 4 a.m. in Philly it made me hoot. Good one.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2008, 08:52:46 AM »

Afraid Doc was serious.. I believe he was trounced on at one of the larger contests west of the Mississippi last year..

Doc, sorry if this is wrong info, you know how stuff changes as it gets passed around..

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2008, 09:10:34 AM »

In that case best to Doc. No harm meant.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #26 on:** February 29, 2008, 09:03:36 AM »

Well, the Smoothie is home from Warren Walker's shop, now that I have a start on my own space (a total mess, but it WILL get better!).

I think the oil is all out, the vertical tail has been cut out and ribs added, the control sensitivity reduced slightly and fillets added. Of course I had to jamb my thumb through a weak spot in the planking.

Monokote here we come.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #27 on:** February 29, 2008, 09:48:23 AM »

Quote from: Bob Reeves on February 28, 2008, 08:52:46 AM

Afraid Doc was serious.. I believe he was trounced on at one of the larger contests west of the Mississippi last year..

Doc, sorry if this is wrong info, you know how stuff changes as it gets passed around..

I was not trounced on. I myself presented the case to the CD and agreed with him. So don't blame the CD's of any of the contests I have attended. But, a lot of this could have been resolved in 2004 if our tech director would not have been pushed. Also as of last year this could have been cleaned up by the end of this year if the other board members would have voted for one of the rules proposals so it could be refined. I admire the CD's and clubs that are doing away with appearance and having a separate concours awards. Later, DOC Holliday

Larry Renger · « **Reply #28 on:** March 06, 2008, 07:56:00 AM »

Progress report: Oil once again surfaced in a few areas after the model sat for a few days. I decided to to try Balsarite as a barrier and it WORKED!!!

The model now sports full length Monokote hinges, and everything seems to be sticking OK. Once I get the covering on over the hinges, that should permanently lock everything down.

More as it develops.

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2008, 09:16:26 PM »

Larry,
Thanks for the note about Balsarite as an oil barrier for refinishing. Info for the data bank!

Jim

Larry Renger · « **Reply #30 on:** March 23, 2008, 09:19:41 AM »

Back from VSC, and some putting my new shop in order, it is time to get back to work on the Smoothie!

I now have all the control surfaces hinged and covered, not a trivial task when they are already on the model! Getting 'kote on the edges of an elevator or flap with the rest of the model in the way isn't easy. But I managed an acceptable job of it, and will seal them with epoxy to make sure the seams stay put.

Colors are dark red and cream with two tones of blue and metallic gray for trim.

Next up is also difficult, doing the fillets!

Larry Renger · « **Reply #31 on:** March 30, 2008, 10:01:17 AM »

Here are a couple of photos showing actual progress! Note how the MonoKote hinges disappear under the covering. Covering around the fillets and into the gap of the flaps is a challenge with an already assembled model!

Larry Renger · « **Reply #32 on:** April 23, 2008, 11:17:27 PM »

Done at last!!!!

The hard part was getting the oil out of the structure. Once that was done, it was like any regular model. I have to admit, that monokoting the flaps and elevators with them attached to the model made a lot of things hard to do well.

Not up to my standards, but workable. So here is the finished model. I like the Cream and Dark Red combo, but there aren't any other colors that go with that combination for trim. Not much to be done rather than use the black lettering and leave it at that. I have half a dozen trim sheets in various colors, but nothing works.

Oh well, it will fly just as well, no matter what the deco.

I did reduce the elevator throw compared to the flaps. It was about 1.5:1 and now is about 1.25:1 . I hope this will allow a more aft cg, while still retaining smooth stability.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #33 on:** April 25, 2008, 07:59:07 AM »

I flew the model yesterday. The engine is acting up again, so I need to re-do the tank installation with more careful foam placement. That cured it last time.

In addition, it still turns too suddenly for me to handle with my skill level and coordination. Some noseweight will be needed again.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #34 on:** April 25, 2008, 03:36:20 PM »

I dunno Larry, I think that is a GREAT color combo. If you want some pin striping - how about some orange and medium blue???

I seem to recall you reported a problem with different turns insdie and outside - I do not recall seeing that you fixed that???

I HATE adding ballast if it can be avoided! If you can SLOW DOWN the elevator to closer to 1:1 I think you might improve your control feel...

Larry Renger · « **Reply #35 on:** April 26, 2008, 09:45:05 PM »

I agree in principle on noseweight, but it IS convenient. 3/4 ounce right behind the spinner and narrowest handle spacing on the Fancher Handle seem to have done the trick. Also, a bit of more foam around the tank, and the plane is flying great again.

I am toying with the idea of white stars on the red and black stars on the cream in an alternating pattern right at the color break.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #36 on:** April 27, 2008, 06:22:13 AM »

Hey Larry, that "Smoothie" looks great to me, but, I am biased toward simple color schemes. As far as a different color for pin striping you can't go wrong with black or a dark color like Navy blue. Hope you get used to the turning ability of the "Smoothie". Have fun, DOC Holliday

Larry Renger · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2008, 07:15:38 PM »

At the Palmer Contest, the Smoothie flew perfectly (I didn't, but that isn't the models fault) for Old Time, and the first flight of Advanced, but would not start and run for the second flight.

Today I took the engine out and examined it. There was glop in the needle assembly EVEN THOUGH I USE A FILTER! Must have been lurking there while the engine was in storage, and then jammed up after enough fuel had loosened it up. Message to earth! Clean the needle assembly of a stored engine before use!

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #38 on:** April 29, 2008, 09:04:00 PM »

Hi Larry, That redeaux really looks sharp! Did you use Mono-Coat hinges for your surfaces? I have found these to work quite well for me; one plane of mine has over 600 flights on it with the Mono-Cot hinges lasting for all flights! Still flying as well. In addition my Smoothie ARF needed the engine rails to be routed out about 1/8th inch so as to enable the tank to be lowered. Mine is powered by an LA .46 which just sings on this plane! Sorry for your encounter with the dreaded Goop Goblin! Phil Spillman

Larry Renger · « **Reply #39 on:** April 30, 2008, 10:38:25 AM »

If you look at the first photos I published on this thread you can see the MonoKote hinges in progress. I have also had good, long term luck with them. No hinge tape required!

Larry Renger · « **Reply #40 on:** May 05, 2008, 10:48:18 AM »

Well, I have my "golden" engine run back. I flew two flights at the Keith Trostle Stunt Clinic contest in Competitor Classic. Flawless runs again (at last). Scores 462 and 463.5, not quite up to my best, which is around the 480 mark, but getting there.

I am still adding decorations, but got 12 appearance points even unfinished. The stars on the wing came out looking good, and I will add stars and stripes to the tail surfaces. I don't know what I will do on the bottom, if anything.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2008, 08:41:21 PM »

You just can't go wrong with Stars and Stripes, IMO!

On the control ratio issue, since the Smoothie is small and thin winged, relatively, I'd think 1:1 should be a good place to start, tho more flap than elevator would be logical if the thing is heavy. Start by calculating the wing loading, probably.

Steve

Larry Renger · « **Reply #42 on:** May 06, 2008, 06:53:02 PM »

The kit does recomment 1:1, but I am currently using 1.25:1 elevator:flap. I admit I haven't measured the cg position and checked it against recommendations. Having too much fun flying the plane

Larry Renger · « **Reply #43 on:** May 08, 2008, 12:44:35 PM »

It's DONE!!!

That's 116 hand cut stars, folks!

Steve Holt · « **Reply #44 on:** May 08, 2008, 05:04:53 PM »

Very nice Larry. I guess it is time to get mine out of storage and get to work on it. Thanks for the guide on "how to" for this kind of project.
Steve

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #45 on:** May 09, 2008, 01:15:36 PM »

Quote from: Larry Renger on May 08, 2008, 12:44:35 PM

It's DONE!!!

That's 116 hand cut stars, folks!

You must have the same insanity as Frank Carlisle

Larry Renger · « **Reply #46 on:** June 15, 2008, 04:25:05 PM »

If you have been following Andy Borgogna's thread on his Score, you know he has line tension issues. Today (flying on Father's Day, what a treat!) he tried moving his lead-outs forward, and it helped. Seeing this, I took a close look at how the Smoothie is flying, and saw that the landing gear were way out of line with the outboard wheel trailing.

As a result, I started moving the lead-outs forward, and now have the plane flying exactly perpendicular to my line of sight. Yes, it really does seem to improve the overheads!

Thanks for the tip, Brett!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #47 on:** June 15, 2008, 08:27:00 PM »

Hey Larry, the Smoothie looks great. Glad to hear your curing the trim problems. DOC Holliday

Larry Renger · « **Reply #48 on:** June 30, 2008, 06:09:21 PM »

More pri=ogress!!

This week, I changed the flap/elevator back to the 1:1 that was recommended on the plans and instructions. What do you know, they were correct!

In addition I switchec to an RSM +25 handle withe somewhat smaller line spacing at neutral (and about the same as the Fancher Handle at the extremes of motion).

The results are astounding! The model grooves perfectly in level flight, does round maneuvers as well as I can control them, and flips hard corners like there is no tommorow.

Any points I lose with this model are certainly my fault, not the design or construction!

Bob Palmer got it right!

Larry

John Paris · « **Reply #49 on:** June 30, 2008, 07:41:46 PM »

Larry,
Do you have a picture of the RSM +25 handle? I was unable to find it on Eric's site.
Thanks,
John

Larry Renger · « **Reply #50 on:** July 01, 2008, 05:04:25 PM »

It is a 25% scale up of the 1/2A handle. I am attaching a photo of that.

The handle has rectangular inserts that define the line spacing, and due to the way the Lead-outs run over them, you get exponential control so you have a very smooth flight at the center while still having the control power for hard corners.

John Paris · « **Reply #51 on:** July 02, 2008, 09:39:04 AM »

Larry,
Thanks for picture. The way you had described it, I figured that there was some exponential feature.
John

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #52 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:01:05 AM »

I'm a sucker for handles. I have your 1/2A version. Is the new 25+ version "out in the wild" yet?

Larry Renger · « **Reply #53 on:** July 07, 2008, 11:14:09 AM »

Check the RSM catalog. It should be in there. If not, E-mail Eric.

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #54 on:** July 09, 2008, 06:09:25 PM »

hand cut stars.... SHEESH - you know you can buy craft foam cutters that are Star shaped - they work on film too -

Larry Renger · « **Reply #55 on:** July 11, 2008, 08:23:22 AM »

But I needed 2 sizes!

Actually, I do have a star cutter, but I only located it this last week. Maybe next plane ....

Author Topic: Smoothie ARF strip and re-do (Read 7563 times)

posthole_digger

Alan Hahn