Author Topic: Nobler ARF fuel tank ?????? (Read 5237 times)

Richard Edwards · « **on:** January 23, 2008, 01:16:10 PM »

Okay I know there is more than enough been written and said about the mods to the Nobler ARF.

I have had one sitting and waiting to be built for a couple of years and just decided to build (if you call it build) it I have done all the control mods new leadouts, bellcrank, better pushrods and Dubro clevis etc., had to grind the rear of fuselage former where the dowel goes in so the wing would fit up into the fuselage, made certain the stab, main wing and engine mounts are all running parallel to a centre line, added cross grain hard balsa between the bearers in the tank compartment and put 1/8" ply wedges at fuselage to bearers and put a 1/2" strip of 1/8" ply across the bearers and attached to the front former also plan on using either or both brass tube in the bearers to stop crushing and or engine plates. I am using an L&J Fox .35 and I remember straight from the factory Fox .35's tended to vibrate, but expect this one to be alot better but wanted to be sure, Larry say's the engine will need 41/2 to 5 oz fuel to do the pattern.
Okay, now is my questions the model came with a 180cc/6oz plastic clunk tank with it when I put the tank in and checked the height of the fuel feed it is about 1/2" lower than the spraybar of the Fox also put a Brodak .40 in and it is the same difference, I always made sure the tank outlet was the same height as the spraybar in the past with metal tanks and could adjust it up or down to get the same engine run upright and inverted, what I need to know is, as I have never used a clunk tank before does it matter with these where the fuel outlet is on the tank in respect to the spraybar?? Incidentally I have got the new mounting instructions for the clunk tank but it say's nothing about somehow adjusting for fuel feed line, I did put the feed line at the top (closest to the bearers) but still no where near same height as the spraybar.
Also notice the bearers are not long enough and I am not putting a spacer on this engine so has anyone had any problems shortening the fibreglass cowl I doubt it will look right but heck this is an ARF !!!!!!!!!!

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2008, 04:26:40 PM »

I run a uniflow setup in mine (a round plastic klunk tank), and I adjust the uniflow vent so that it more or less lines up with the spraybar, and then slowly optimize. On a plastic klunk tank, all you need to do is to rotate the tubing to do this.
The actual location of the outlet does't matter, only where the inside position (inside the tank) of the uniflow vent matters.

Bootlegger · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2008, 03:24:51 PM »

I have a question about a fuel tank for the Nobler ARF also, I have a Fox 35 with the ceramic liner and this engine has a "drinking problem" it really likes fuel... About 5Oz if using 10% fuel so I am looking for a round clunk tank that is no more than 1 3/4" in dia to fit in the tank compartment, it has to be a 6oz tank for enough fuel capacity. Any help sure will be appreciated...

David Miller · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2008, 03:31:38 PM »

I believe the Nobler can take the same tank Tower sells for the Top Flite Tutor II which is a 6 oz rectangular tank. They sell it seperatly. Part #LXEVS7 for $3.29. Hope that helps. I've used that tank on my TutorII for 2 years now with excellant results (LA .46)

Greg L Bahrman · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2008, 06:03:12 PM »

<I believe the Nobler can take the same tank Tower sells for the Top Flite Tutor II which is a 6 oz rectangular tank. They sell it seperatly. Part #LXEVS7 for $3.29. Hope that helps. I've used that tank on my TutorII for 2 years now with excellant results (LA .46)>

In my TopFlite Nobler a 6 oz. tank would never work, just not enough room. Picture shows a 4 oz. Brodak tank and even then I had to open up the first former for the tank to protrude thru about a 1/4 in. How did you ever do it David?

Richard Edwards · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2008, 06:59:12 PM »

Greg,
I believe that is the same tank supplied with my ARF Nobler, infact where Tower lists the models that tank part# LXEVS7 it shows the ARF Nobler. Which is where my original question started as I notice you using a metal tank which is what I have always used, I guess I am still dumb about using clunk tanks as I just do not understand the method of venting and pickup in relation to the spraybar. It seems to me that if the vent is the same hieght inside the tank as the spraybar on the engine fuel would tend to run out at least until the engine starts and fuel is being pulled through, but then I am just learning about these tanks, which is why I started the thread so I could learn being as I do not have anyone near that fly's at all that can advise me and I fly on my own all the time.

David Miller · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2008, 12:24:21 AM »

Greg, The ARF Nobler later came with the plastic 6 oz tank with a piece of paper about modifying the fuse for it to fit. The metal tank came in the older Nobler ARF.

Richard Edwards · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2008, 08:52:25 PM »

I put this ARF Nobler to one side until this week when I figured I best finish it and try the uniflow clunk tank supplied with it.
Anyway I managed to finally get the controls all connected and working correctly after adding an inch to the length of the elevator pushrod, only to find that even though I connected the pushrods to the holes they tell you to, that I have the same amount of movement to both elevator and flaps, is this normal with the ARF Nobler? as I am just not used to the flaps moving as much as the elevators, so once again I have put it to one side until I can get some more info the manual sure don't say how much movement there should be, if I had known how much trouble this model was going to be to get airborne I would have scratch built a Nobler, it would have been alot easier if not faster to get it in the air what with all the problems I have had getting it this far.
Richard

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2008, 10:45:05 PM »

Stock Nobler is 1 to 1 flap to elevator. There may be a more optimal ratio (less flap) but 1 to 1 works well. We all obsess too much about these things.
In spite of my comment, if you want to play, replace the elevator horn with one that has a slot rather than holes. "1 to 1" is when the lever arm of the hole in the elevator horn matches the flap hole lever arm. To make it adjustable, you will need to cut an access window under the elevator, and also leave some space for a sliding ball link (there isn't much clearance space back there).

I had several people fly my stock setup Nobler Arf several years ago and they all thought it was one of the better flying planes they had ever flown. And these guys were pretty reasonable flyers. So again I say don't obsess too much. It is an ARF.

Richard Edwards · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2008, 04:20:33 AM »

Thanks Alan now I will finish putting it together I just wanted to be sure the movement was normal

GEOFFREY · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2008, 11:28:14 AM »

Sullvan RST #6 is flexable and With turning the plug it works perfect . use monokote heat gun to get the tank to relax/ Been THERE DONE THAT .

Terry Bolin · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2008, 07:35:16 AM »

Post pictures of what you do. I have one of these in the ranks waiting to be built. Right now I am stuck on building Legacy planes. I Am almost finished with one and gathering balsa for the second one scratch build.

dankar · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2008, 03:53:24 AM »

Thanks all for advice on tanks. I have a Hybrid T&L .40 McCoy just needing a plane .
Dan

EddyR · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2008, 05:29:17 PM »

Bootlegger I have never heard of a Fox 35 using 5 ounces of fuel to fly the pattern. I use a 3 ounce tank in a 2-4 run setup and have plenty of time for the complete pattern. On my ST/35's that I converted to ABC set up I use less fuel than when they were stock.I would look for the problem not a bigger tank. In my ARF Nobler I have Rustler 40 and use a narrow 3.5 oz tank.I removed the firewall completely and used a v section under the tank.
Ed

Just One-eye · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2008, 06:19:38 PM »

Agreed regarding fuel mileage for ordinary Foxes (I don't have one with a ceramic liner, although I do have one with the Fox ABC setup). The most I've ever needed was 3 1/2 Ounces. For a Johnson "S", I needed 4 Ounces, and the same for a Torp 29S. My OS Max 40 H engines did fine on 4 Ounces, and the OS Max S 35s were good with 3 1/2. My ST G21-46s varied far more from one to another, with a 5 Ounce average. I had a six Ounce tank on my Magnum with a ST V51, but never got much data to work with on that one before it was stolen (and now I have a couple more of those V51s, but the Magnum is long gone -- though there's another of those still in its box here).

The FP 20 / 25 are so close to the bolt pattern for a Fox 35, that I use the FP 25 quite often now on my older planes that once had Fox 35s in them! You can get a pattern done on about 3 Ounces, even, using that one.

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2008, 05:40:27 PM »

Quote from: Richard Edwards on January 23, 2008, 01:16:10 PM

Okay I know there is more than enough been written and said about the mods to the Nobler ARF.

I have had one sitting and waiting to be built for a couple of years and just decided to build (if you call it build) it I have done all the control mods new leadouts, bellcrank, better pushrods and Dubro clevis etc., had to grind the rear of fuselage former where the dowel goes in so the wing would fit up into the fuselage, made certain the stab, main wing and engine mounts are all running parallel to a centre line, added cross grain hard balsa between the bearers in the tank compartment and put 1/8" ply wedges at fuselage to bearers and put a 1/2" strip of 1/8" ply across the bearers and attached to the front former also plan on using either or both brass tube in the bearers to stop crushing and or engine plates. I am using an L&J Fox .35 and I remember straight from the factory Fox .35's tended to vibrate, but expect this one to be alot better but wanted to be sure, Larry say's the engine will need 41/2 to 5 oz fuel to do the pattern.
Okay, now is my questions the model came with a 180cc/6oz plastic clunk tank with it when I put the tank in and checked the height of the fuel feed it is about 1/2" lower than the spraybar of the Fox also put a Brodak .40 in and it is the same difference, I always made sure the tank outlet was the same height as the spraybar in the past with metal tanks and could adjust it up or down to get the same engine run upright and inverted, what I need to know is, as I have never used a clunk tank before does it matter with these where the fuel outlet is on the tank in respect to the spraybar?? Incidentally I have got the new mounting instructions for the clunk tank but it say's nothing about somehow adjusting for fuel feed line, I did put the feed line at the top (closest to the bearers) but still no where near same height as the spraybar.
Also notice the bearers are not long enough and I am not putting a spacer on this engine so has anyone had any problems shortening the fibreglass cowl I doubt it will look right but heck this is an ARF !!!!!!!!!!

After crashing my Nobler ARF i am not going to say anything bad about the Bellcrank Leadout system and the pushrod as far as I can tell that part of the control system is rock solid. Especially the bellcrank. I liked the leadout clips and the pushrod and leodout holes had now wear> i was really supprised. I think the main problem with the control setup is the pushrod. In my case I did a poor job of soldering the clevis onto the pushrod. I like the plane but not the covering. If I get anothe Nobler ARF I will take the covering off and maybe use Worldrex on It. Worldtex is great stuff. It goes aroud corners good an you can paint over it with airplane dope. AND IT STAYS SHRUNK.

Garf · « **Reply #16 on:** September 01, 2008, 08:58:17 AM »

This shows my solution to this problem. It is a rectangular steel clunk tank. It works well.

http://hangarflying.proboards18.com/index.cgi?board=wire&action=display&thread=2426

Bootlegger · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2008, 05:39:02 PM »

Reply to Ed Ruane, The Fox 35 that I am refering to is set up with the new ceramic liner combo with hemi head and stuffer back plate.
When I try to run 10% nitro that engine eats fuel, however with 5% 4oz is enough.
If I misled you it wasn't intended.
This Fox doesn't viberate like the old ones either. Sweet runner that 4-2-4 breaks like all Fox 35's do... Hope that this clears up any mis information....

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #18 on:** September 08, 2008, 06:05:28 AM »

I have an ARF Nobler with a ST 46 in the nose. Still need to build a tank as the first two tries didn't work real well. Need about 5 1/5 ounces and it's going to take a little Oklahoma engineering to stuff it in the space available.

What I really didn't like about the stock Tower clunk tank is the bottom is concave into the container. If you make the clunk line long enough to go to an outside corner the bottom will stop it from being able to move freely up and down. If you shorten it so it clears the bottom you are more than 1/4 inch away from the rear of the tank when it's level. No way is it going to empty the tank before the engine quits.

Also have heard of more than one neck splitting, this could be from tightening the stopper too much but not something you hear very often with Sullivan tanks.

Wished I had the experience and know how with Saito 40's I do now when I built the ARF. I would have stuck a Saito in it which works well on 4 ounces.. Now I would need to completly rebuild and refinish the nose and just isn't worth the trouble.

Greg L Bahrman · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2008, 09:44:45 AM »

http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/_overlay/tankcaps1.htm

Hi Bob,
Bob Violett sells a replacement Kit that has caps in aluminum and new stoppers for both gas and glow fuel along with tube. I have used them in place of the plastic stock ones.

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:10:03 PM »

I used a Sullivan rectangle tank of 4 ozs. on my ARF Nobler which was adequate for SW PA altitudes and almost OK at sealevel! I necked down the venturi in my B .40 engine to be .270 ID which helped in the consumption of fuel! Got me through the pattern with about 6 laps to spare! I am rebuilding this ship with an RC engine mount and expect to use the same Sullivan tank or one just like it. Mine uses a two clunk set up with muffler pressure and 10 11 11 fuel. You might be able to get by with less than 6 ozs. of fuel!

Tally Ho!

Phil Spillman

Neal Beekman · « **Reply #21 on:** February 24, 2009, 05:16:06 PM »

My Profile Nobler powered with a LA 40.Started out as a ARF.

Brian Massey · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2009, 09:48:27 AM »

I'm building the Top Flite ARF Nobler and after reading these posts glad it's not just me that thinks the tanks wrong. This is my first (and last!) ARF, I could not be more disappointed. The supplied tank (180cc) fits, but does not allow the fuel line to be on a plain with the venturi, nor did any setup instructions come with the tank. The tank does not look like the tank pictured, nor does it fit the description. I'm going to use an old McCoy .40 for power, with a tongue muffler, so no muffler pressure will be used; I'm going the old fashion route of using prop blast for the pressure. This week I'll build my own clunk tank to fit.

Besides the tank issue, the ARF shows very shoddy control installation, sloppy covering etc. etc. Building from plans will actually wind up being easier, and result in a plane I can trust . . . and it would have the proper airfoil rudder.

I emailed Top Flite regarding the fuel tank issue, and they promply ignored me . . . shame on them.

Brian

john e. holliday · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2009, 12:26:48 PM »

I think they have already heard of the faults of the ARF Nobler since day one of the kit. I built mine almost box stock. I did not like the crimped lines and replaced them. Mine was/is powered with the old trusty Fox .35 Stunt. The supplied tank was just the right size to do the complete pattern. I did have a Brodak .40 in it for one flying session. Wanted to get some air time before it went into another plane. Barely got the horizontal 8's in.

For me the ARF Nobler is a knock about plane that went together in a very short time and flies very well for me. Anyway I have had another ARF that was a joke to me after a dozen flights as it kept coming apart untill I completely took it apart down to bare wood and reassembled it.

Now go build your kits. If you had been on this forum or any other you would probably have never bought the ARF Nobler. It has been out for several years. DOC Holliday

Brian Massey · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2009, 06:34:33 PM »

Thanks for your comments Doc; I'll get the Nobler up and flying soon, and do believe that dispite the kit's shortcomings it will be a good flyer. My next project is Tom Warden's TT. I've got most of the parts cut out, just need to get the ribs cut and then find the time to assemble.

Brian

Author Topic: Nobler ARF fuel tank ?????? (Read 5237 times)

Alan Hahn

Alan Hahn