Author Topic: Top Ten List (Read 4383 times)

Paul Taylor · « **on:** May 17, 2010, 05:03:03 PM »

I know there are guys that have flown way more ARFs then I have, but if you had to put a top 10 list together what would it be?

I sure like my Tutor II, I hope it makes your list.

My top ten list is a total of 3. I have only flown 3 ARF's.

1. Tutor II
2. Bi-Slob
3. Flite Streak

Brett Buck · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2010, 10:55:27 PM »

I haven't flown 10 different designs, but the Vector 40 is by far the best flier, the Flite Streak/20/25FP is second, and the Nobler is about third. That's just the flying qualities of correctly assembled and trimmed airplanes, not necessarily the quality of the construction. I have only assisted in building one ARF and it was absurd the amount of work required to make it OK. Reports from those who have built them suggest that the Vector and the Noblers commonly have some alignment issue straight out of the box - the Vector wing "key" is often skewed and is pretty hard to fix (so I hear) and at least some batches of the Noblers have stab incidence issues (which should be relatively easy to fix). And the Noblers have *notoriously bad* controls that must be replaced and its not that easy to do.

I have heard nothing bad about the Flite Streak and I have seen more people have success with those than any other ARF by far - it's easy to assemble correctly, easy to trim, and goes perfectly with a 25LA/APC9-4.

The ARF that looks the best-made is the P-Force, and I expect it will be a very good flier just from looking at it, but I haven't seen one fly, much less flown one myself. Same with the T-Rex, the parts I saw looked pretty good and the design is clearly close enough that the trim/power is going to make the difference. With whatever caveats there are here in the other threads.

I think the ARF procurers are getting a much better handle on what it takes to get a decent product out of the suppliers as time goes on. Most of the issues with the Nobler are just because it was *first*. The Flite Streak is about the same era but how hard can it be to get a Flite Streak right? It's really kind of amazing what you get for the money - none are all that great, but they are pretty decent, and I sure won't be building you an airplane for $200.

Brett

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2010, 04:47:36 AM »

My Evaluations based on Limited Experience ( an admittedly subjective POV):

Vector 40s are very good. No problems so far. Three or four so far in club. Flies great.
Flite Streak. Good for a hundred flights are so. Very user friendly with an LA25. Then the nose falls off.
Primary Force, same peeling wrap problems as most ARFs, bad nose vibes in my experience (and others), front end too lightly built. Flies like a plane with no flaps. So, so, corner. Easy to set up since there are no flaps. Might work with a 25. I'd be interested in seeing one of those.
Oriental, stab horn wedged in impossible narrow corner. Ridiculously thin pushrods. Forget about digging controls out of the wing to replace. I gave up after almost splitting the wing in half trying to improve things. I have seen these fly well with a honking 40 and up to 3 ounces tail weight.
PT 19s, fues lightly build, bad vibes, stunts like a non-flapped stunter. So, so, corner. Dihedral seems a problem to me. Gets blown weird by a strong breeze.
Cardinal: mine was a dog, probably BADLY trimmed, others fly o.k., also mine had bad front end vibe problem. Seen lots of these do the tricks well. Weird fruity wood ply laminate in fues. When I stripped the fues it exuded a tropical perfume... for weeks.
All of them are a helluva deal, if you can debug and trim.

Dick Pacini · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2010, 05:06:39 AM »

How does the UHP Nobler compare as far as quality and performance? I haven't read too much about it.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2010, 10:59:09 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on May 18, 2010, 04:47:36 AM

Flite Streak. Good for a hundred flights are so. Very user friendly with an LA25. Then the nose falls off.

The old Vacaville club trainer goes back to the first run and is still together although last time I saw it, it was getting a bit ratty-looking. There are quite a few around here with a lot more than 100 flights and no self-destruction issues.

One of Uncle Jimby only lasted about 20 seconds - the one he set up to fly clockwise on the theory that, well, he could fly clockwise. He was horribly, horribly wrong.

Brett

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2010, 03:45:26 AM »

Well, my club's ARF Streaks went three for three. The nose on mine fell off on landing, after an official flight. Two others did the act while in flight. The fues is hollow right after the motor mounts, even under the rear third or so of the fues under the doublers. Basically there are two 1/16" sheets (or the metric translation of similar thickness) of balsa attaching the vibrating front end. Something like that. The hollows are definitely there, since I jammed sections of carbon arrow shaft into the hollows, top and bottom, during the fix. A fix that did not fix. The resulting nose job setting up a weird vibe that upset the LA25, which, before the break up, ran sweet with no muss no fuss. Bad design idea. Hollowing out an area of maximum stress. Simple enough, of course, to cut out a solid profile front end and connect to the original fues stick, or, do a conventional solid balsa fues. Considering the price of an ARF Streak, still a bargain. The ARF PF on the hand, if you can get one, costs two and a half times the price of a Streak. I have yet to see the P-Force cut a convincing corner. Despite what folks insist. My P-Force ARF unwrapped covering same as other first generation CL ARFS that I have known. Shame. I was hoping for Monokote at the Sig price. The wing of the P-Force, a hybrid semi-i-beam construction, depends on the tautness of the covering for structural integrity. (IMHO, I AM NO ENGINEER.) Such a wing is better served by doped on Silkspan or Silk.

Larry Fulwider · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2010, 03:51:56 PM »

Don't forget the U-Key series! We tend to think of it as not a "real" ARF, since it is entirely USA made, and somewhat of a different animal than a Flite Streak, Score, or Vector.

All in all, from original concept to execution, it certainly deserves a spot in the top 10. People's U-Key issues are normally the result of the successes they have had flying the airplane.

With reliable delivery and marketing, it would be the top seller many times over, my guess.

Larry Fulwider

Russ Danneman · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2010, 07:10:13 PM »

great topic, good info, don't mean to be stupid but whats is U-Key series ?

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2010, 11:00:32 PM »

I have a Vector, I like it ok,, mine was a bit heavy though,,
I have had a flight streak, I prefer larger airplanes,, personal preference, but they do fly well trimmed correctly ( which is pretty simple compared to some with flaps)
I have had a Nobler, all 5 flights gave me massive grief, control system issues, I didnt know then what I know now,, pretty stock controls and with a load on the bellcrank, it would bind,, what a ride that was,,
My favorite above all has been the P-40 profile,, I have had two stock ones,, and two that I modified, everything from 48 oz to a heft 59 oz. All powered with an LA 46, All pretty much solid right from the git go,, In fact the wing in my Gee Bee is based on the P-40 wing, ,

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2010, 04:13:41 AM »

The P40s in our club fly great. Three or four of them, I believe. One electric. I think it won Expert (or came in second) at Brodak Expert Profile. Yep, Mike Palko's electric ARF P40 came in second in 2009. I flew that plane once. Very, very, responsive. Excellent turn. Obviously a good corner. Dan Banjok won Expert Profile with an ARF Pt-19. A plane that didn't impress me. But won the event with Dan yanking the handle. That PT-19 might be a plane with a non-stock fues. A solid fues with a longer tail moment. Dan has a way with junk.

So does Mike.

Mike and Dan use PT-19s to do their two up act of simultaneously flying the pattern. P40s, however, fly much better. IMHO.

Larry Fulwider · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2010, 12:09:05 PM »

Quote from: RUSS DANNEMAN on May 19, 2010, 07:10:13 PM

great topic, good info, don't mean to be stupid but whats is U-Key series ?

Check post #2 in this thread for pics. Beauty is in the eye of the -- how does that go?

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=274967&mesg_id=274967&listing_type=search

Larry Fulwider

Russ Danneman · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »

thanks larry!

SteveMoon · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2010, 12:53:54 PM »

The UHP product is actually the Gieseke Nobler, so it is quite a bit
different than the Top Flite Nobler. There isn't too much to compare
between the two. We did the Gieseke Nobler with the thought that
it should be a competition worthy plane from the start. I find the
plane to be a good performer and easy to fly.

I've watched Brad Walker fly his T-Rex many times and have always
been impressed with how it looks in the air. I've never flown it myself,
but from what I've seen it looks very easy to fly and performs the
pattern more than competently.

Steve

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #13 on:** May 30, 2010, 10:25:09 AM »

The best flying ARF/ARCs on the market are (by far) the UHP Geiseke Nobler and the Brodak Randy Smith Vector 40.

The Brodak Pat Johnston P-40 is also outstanding performance wise, but I have very little use for the nose construction.

I will reserve comment on the T-Rex...

Bill Heher · « **Reply #14 on:** May 30, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »

I've had experience with the TF Nobler and Streak and Brodak Oriental in both assembly / mod and flying. All 3 will fly to the limits of my skill ( Beginner pattern ) stone stock.

The Oriental with an OS .35 is my favorite of these 3.
I have had 3 of them ( 2 still alive) and they make me look like a better flyer than I feel I am. Downside is spongy /weak motor mounts and weak point in fuse at back of wing cut-out.

A Streak with an OS 20 /25 is a great way to get in the air in a few hours with a plane that will get you through the pattern. Spend the extra effort to replace the controls, strengthen the front-end / etc. and you may as well build a kit.

Nobler with an LA .46 is a good flyer, and looks good in the air. Issues with tank room and same motor mount weakness as Oriental. Still easier to assemble this one and make needed mods for longevity than to build from a kit.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2010, 03:41:42 PM »

Bradley
I am curious about your thoughts on the nose construction on the P-40. what dont you care for? Just curious, Since I have had several of these and not noticed any issues of merit.
Thanks

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2010, 11:22:02 AM »

One that seems to be consistantly overlooked is Brodaks Super Clown. Pricewise it is comparable to the T/F Flite Streak but offers much more value for the money.
I have one with an OS 35S and while some may say too much engine I really like a responsive knock about model. It's not a P.A model obviously but does suprisingly well built out of the box with one improvement. Do not use the moveable flaps. My personnel opinion is that it degrades the performance of the model based on a fly off with a flapped example.
Try one with a 25 and i doubt that you would be disappointed.
I have reviewed every ARF example, read that as bought one of each, and while they have advantges they are still light years away from being a top quality product. However , given market conditions and the persuit for a shrinking hobby dollar I think that the products will have to offer more quality to continue to be viable to the consumer, i.E .....us.
Dennis

Russ Danneman · « **Reply #17 on:** June 01, 2010, 03:14:02 PM »

interesting dennis have been wondering bout super clown.thanks rd

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #18 on:** June 01, 2010, 06:08:17 PM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on May 31, 2010, 03:41:42 PM

Bradley
I am curious about your thoughts on the nose construction on the P-40. what dont you care for? Just curious, Since I have had several of these and not noticed any issues of merit.
Thanks

The universal engine mount.

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #19 on:** June 01, 2010, 06:13:06 PM »

AHHH thanks, Actually, I have never used it so I completely blanked it out of my thoughts.
I wasnt real fond of it so instead installed conventional blind nuts and installed my motor in a more normal manner.

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #20 on:** June 02, 2010, 04:45:55 AM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on June 01, 2010, 06:13:06 PM

AHHH thanks, Actually, I have never used it so I completely blanked it out of my thoughts.
I wasnt real fond of it so instead installed conventional blind nuts and installed my motor in a more normal manner.

[/quote

I've used it but somewhat differently.
I used it as a mounting plate. Removed the outer plywood and sat it right on the beam. Made a better non crushable seat for the engine.
Dennis

Mike Alimov · « **Reply #21 on:** June 03, 2010, 07:15:14 PM »

I don't think there are enough CL ARFs on the market to compile a Top 10 list (of what - maybe 20 different ARFs?), but my top two are:
1. Top Flite Score (with Saito 56 CL)
2. Brodak Vector (with OS 40 FP).
If non-CL ARFs are permitted, then:
3. China Model Products Giles-202 ARF (with Saito 56 CL).

I have not flown the Brodak T-Rex or the UHP Nobler, as those are possible candidates.

All ARFs, including those on my Top 3 list, require at least 40 - 50 working hours to be correctly assembled, including upgrades to the control system, strengthening of the nose section and landing gear attachment points, re-ironing and sealing of the film covering, fuel proofing, etc. When done this way, these ARFs will last several flying seasons of heavy use, and are competitive at the Expert level at regional contests. Knowledge of trimming and CL power systems is required, as always.

peabody · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2010, 05:07:08 AM »

I would add the Pathfinder....
With an LA 46 it is a terrific flier....
And the "kit"/pieces go and fit together very well, with no replacement of anything required.
Have fun!

wwwarbird · « **Reply #23 on:** June 08, 2010, 10:07:12 PM »

For the money especially, you just can't beat the Flite Streak. All you need is an LA .25 and it's a very capable model and then mainly just needs a Fazer landing gear to make it a great (for the price) all around airplane. A .35 is big time overkill on this ARF. About the only significant fault is the weakness of the nose as it snaps off fairly easily on impact.

The Primary Force is an excellent flyer too. The fuse is weak on it though to the point that some powerplants won't be happy on it. The covering could be better too. Hopefully they will be available in quantities again at some point, I'd buy another in a heartbeat, strip the covering, build a new fuse, put a dope finish on it and have a real airplane.

I never got comfortable with my Tutor II. It could have just been me, but it always felt to me like the tail would drop beginning each maneuver as opposed to the engine, prop and wing leading it and flying it through. I had an OS .46 LA on mine. Sold it, didn't like it.

Joseph Lijoi · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2010, 09:57:44 AM »

Brodak 38 special aluminum landing gear works well on the Flite Streak with 2 1/4 wheels. You will need a spacer for the tank.

Bill Little · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2010, 04:20:54 AM »

Hmmmm....... I (we, Aaron and I) have two ARFs. A Vector (Aaron), and a TF Nobler which was a Father's Day gift when it first hit the market. Never have flown either. The Nobler, I changed out the controls, braced the Motor Mounts and have it ready for assembly, just haven't done it yet. The Vector is about ready for assembly we haven't had it that long, and Aaron isn't doing any flying right now (raising kids, etc.,). I haven't found anything in the Vector that looks like it needs work other than I replaced the controls. Nobler will have a DS .40 and the Vector will have the Magnum .36 XlIIS (Granderson style). I am really looking forward to what the Vector will do having had/flown a few of Randy's designs. The wife and, especially the kids, got me the Nobler due to all the talk I did about the one I had back in the early '60s! LOL!! If I can get it to fly as good as that one did, I will be a happy camper.

Never had the Flite Steak ARF, mainly because we have a kit built one from years ago that we restored. All my Flite Streaks have had the single gear and a R/C horn bolted under the outboard tip. maybe I will put a dual gear on this one. Or maybe not!

Never had a problem with the single gear.... AND this time the power is a BBTU 20FP that I "won" from Dan the Dirt!

Life is good
Big Bear

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #26 on:** October 04, 2010, 03:16:46 PM »

My favorite is the Vector ARC with a ST46 in it for power. Five ounce tank and a air filter. A 11X5 Zinger prop and10- 18fuel with 4 ounces of caster added. I put mine togather not using any line-up insterments and it flies in the grove both right side up and inverted. Another thing I like about ths ARC from brodak is the doublers run back behind the wing about 2 formers. Mine flyes very well.