I've read the rules, and I don't see anything that precludes competing with an ARF (or someone else's plane); except for losing a few points.

I fly because I like to fly.

I build because I like to build.

Sure, I'd like to win some contests, but mostly I compete because I like to compete, and because the feedback from the judges and fellow competitors helps me fly better.

I fly models that I've built because I like to build, because I'm a tightwad, and because I'm not rolling in the dough right now.  Were I up on money, and not such a perfectionist about building, then I'd happily buy ARFs and fly them.

I would love to be in a position to say "I woulda won except for this here ARF and them there appearance points".  Until I'm within 20 points of winning (which is going to take a loooooooong time), I feel no external motivation to fly what I build.  When I get to that point, you'll hear me saying "I woulda won except that I can't finish planes for #@$#!".

The closest explanation that I can give came from a conversation I had at the Salem contest this fall (it's still 2010 here).  The fellow was grumbling about appearance points, quite obviously because he (a) wanted to win, and (b) wasn't a hot builder.

I can't fault anyone for wanting the rules to lean their way -- but I'm with you on disagreeing with the "I can't".  It's more "I'd rather not", or "I won't", or "I can fly but I can't win so why bother".

By that reasoning, I should be grumbling that the flights are judged at all!  I should be allowed to start my engine, then the judges should roll several dice to get my score, then I'll fly a lap, then look at the score board.  Why should I say this?  Because my flying is crappy!  Staggering through a beginner's pattern without unscheduled contact with the ground is a triumph for me; I certainly don't fly well enough to win anything (unless I happen to be in a class with as many people as trophies, as was the case at Salem).

So I think at this point we're just singing in harmony.  I do think the BOM rule is getting ragged around the edges, and will be getting more and more obsolete.  I don't know of any other sport where you're scored on building your own equipment.  The way the world is going I think it's getting more and more dated.  I don't like that, I'm happy that I can be scored on a combination of my building skills and my flying, but I wouldn't be surprised that by the time that appearance points would make a material difference to my ability to win a trophy that they're no longer being awarded.

HI Doc,

Flying an ARF or not isn't the point of my question.  The thinking, and subsequent posting, of: "I can't because of the Appearance points" is my concern. 

Heck, I just might fly the ARF Electric Super Clown we just got a Huntersville in OTS!  Of course, that isn't really germane to my "question" since there is no AP at Huntersville.  (another subject I have never fully understood, but also not germane to my original question!) LOL!!  And I don't want this thread to go "there".

Thanks!  And HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Big Bear

Okay, Okay!!!, I found it. Now my problem is how much work is really needed to complete the model in your opinion. 20,30,40%? Is the ARC better for checking quality vs the ARF? Any good sources for these planes besides Brodak, Ultrahobby? Thanks---LOUIE 

Thanks Rich. I do see there is a lot out there on the Vector ARC/ARF and unless I know exactly what control system is in whatever one I get I must do surgery to find out. Dis site is "da bomb", you guys are great and always willing to help us retreads out!---LOUIE

Thanks Rich. I do see there is a lot out there on the Vector ARC/ARF and unless I know exactly what control system is in whatever one I get I must do surgery to find out. Dis site is "da bomb", you guys are great and always willing to help us retreads out!---LOUIE

Hi Louie,

The bellcrank is visible in the ARF/ARCs.  So you will be able to "see" what's in there before you put it all together.  Changes are up to the discretion of the owner.  The stuff in the Vector is pretty good.  Some just don't like the crimps, etc., on the lead outs.  A CF pushrod is always an easy and good upgrade, though.  

I will tend towards the ARCs in the future purchases.  Just too much hassle to "seal" all the edges of the covering on the ARFs, and everyone says the covering starts to come up if not sealed.  We cheated on the Vector ARF and used Min Wax polyurethane in a spray can (not the waterbased) and sprayed all the edges.  It is a practice plane, so the "looks" were not critical.  Not noticeable from 5 feet anyway!

Big Bear

I can't fly my ARF in a contest......

...because I gave it away!   

Hi Bill,

When people say they "can't fly their ARF in a contest", they are really saying (what they mean is):  " I can't COMPETE with an ARF in a CLPA contest where the BOM/APs rule is used". AND THEY ARE CORRECT!

I'm posting this in answer to your Topics question. This is for those who have not read the rules section where I originally posted this at the request of Robert for an explanation of one of my prior posts. I hope this answers your original question.


          THE  BOM/AP  RULE HAS A VERY LARGE IMPACT ON “ALL” CLPA CONTESTS IN THE USA!

The BOM rule is THE rule that is used to DIVIDE the models at EVERY CONTEST IN THE NATION  into those that get A/P points and those ARFs that do NOT receive ANY A/Ps. (the obvious exceptions are the contests in two regions of the country that no longer use the BOM/AP rule at their PAMPA contests).

Bob Branch said it best: “…. This means that ARFs are allowed to enter PAMPA events but NOT compete. They are “allowed” there for a “Fly-in”, NOT a competition. ….”

For years I have heard it over and over again "..... that ARFs are allowed to enter and there is No significant penalty to do so .....” . This statement, and others like it, are DEAD WRONG!

Many of us have felt all along that the BOM/AP rules had a large impact at ALL contests in the USA, but I wanted to get the ACTUAL FACTS before I made my bold statement in print. The other day, when our winter temps plunged way down into the mid 60s, I stayed inside and spent a few hours doing a little research. The numbers below come from 10 randomly selected contests that had at least 5 or more entries in each class. These 10 came from a group of 20 that I studied. These contests come from all quadrants of the USA and cover the past several years.  I have more details in my SS, but below are the important high lights.

HERE ARE THE FACTS:

INTERMEDIATE

100% of ALL contests had their TOP THREE PLACES CHANGE THEIR ORDER BY 10 POINTS OR LESS.

80% of  ALL contests: 15 POINTS or LESS covered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, place. This means that you could out fly everyone else by 15 points and could still end up in 4th place 80% of the time!  At 40% of the contests: 10 POINTS covered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. 

80% of ALL contests had the 1st place winner and the 2nd place pilot  with 10 POINTS or LESS separation between them.  This means that at 80% of the contests the second place pilot flying an ARF would have been the WINNER of the event if the other guy had not received 11 Appearance Points THAT HE RECEIVED BECAUSE OF THE UNDERLYING BOM/AP RULE.

ADVANCED

100 % of ALL contests had their TOP THREE PLACES CHANGE THEIR ORDER BY 15 POINTS OR LESS.  90% BY 10 POINTS OR LESS.

70% of ALL contests:  15POINTS or LESS covered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. At 60% of the contests: 10 POINTS covered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd PLACE.

70% of ALL contests had the 1st PLACE WINNER and the 2nd place pilot with 10 POINTS OR LESS separation between them.

EXPERT

100 % of ALL contests had their TOP THREE PLACES CHANGE THEIR ORDER BY 10 POINTS OR LESS.

90 % of ALL contests:  15 POINTS or LESS covered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.  70% BY 10 POINTS OR LESS.

90% of ALL contests had the 1st PLACE WINNER and the 2nd place pilot with 10 POINTS OR LESS separation between them.

SOME COMMENTS

Someone else's research may show slightly different #s, but they will still be very close. They will still show that THE BOM HAS A LARGE IMPACT ON ALL CONTESTS IN THE USA! ....... So everyone, PLEASE stop telling us that the BOM does not impact any other contest but the nat's, IT DOES!

I have another request for all those who have said this in the past. PLEASE stop saying: "..... just practice a little more and you can make up those 15 points ...." or something similar to this. ...... I know you think you are helping, and I know you don't mean it to be insulting, but it is. We have all practiced as hard as our schedules and other obligations have allowed us to practice. We have all devoted as much time, money, and effort as we can, under our individual circumstances, to this activity. This is exactly why most sports have several different classes so that people with similar levels of commitment can compete with each other. And those that are VERY committed have a top, usually called "OPEN, or UNLIMITED" CLASS, that allows the very best/MOST committed people to compete for the "top of the heap" prize.  ....... Before anyone says this comment to us again, please go up to one of our World Champion American pilots when he places 2nd at a regional contest, 10 points behind the winner, and tell him: " you should have practiced more, and put more effort into this hobby, then you would have easily been able to make up those 10 points", then ask him how he feels about your comment. Then go up to the other world champion pilot that was the winner and tell him THAT YOU ARE TAKING 10 POINTS AWAY FROM HIM, moving him to 2nd place. Then ask him how he feels about it. ..... I doubt if either one will say that these 10 points had NO impact on their results.
    AFTER you have talked to both of these world champions "at" the contest, then come and talk to me about these 10 "little" points!

NO $$$. To be clear, "I, and 99.9% of the others who want to see this rule changed outside the Nat's, have ZERRO commercial interest in this hobby". NO ONE is getting rich in the CL industry. In fact, the ONLY person that is making any serious $$ in the entire model industry is the young man who created and owns the "REAL FLIGHT" flight simulator program. I know many of the people in the industry (RC and CL) and most are just getting by. The few successful people are lucky to be making a middle class living, at best. .... It's like most businesses in the world of aviation: "How do you make 1 million $ in aviation? .... Start with 2 million $s. ;-)

Robert, even though this post is an effort to address your request for an explanation, I am not referring to YOU in any of the above examples of prior statements. I am trying to address the many statements made by many different people over the past several years. I am very impressed by, and grateful for, your open-mindedness on this important topic. As I said earlier, for a master builder like you to make such a reasonable statement at the start of your topic gives us all hope that we will be able to come to some reasonable compromise on this important issue.

I think that with over 12,000 ARF/ARCs (mostly ARFs) out there, it is not a "small" issue anymore. It impacts more than a small minority of CLPA flyers. I have always thought that keeping the BOM/AP rule at the Nat's and having PAMPA take the next step from allowing ARFs to enter to actually allowing them to compete equally on a level playing field by removing the BOM/AP rule from PAMPA contests nationwide would be a compromise that may make the largest % of CLPA flyers happy (As if making us CLPA flyers happy is EVER going to be possible?     ). At least it might be better than the very low % of happy people in the three+ camps we have now?

Again, thank you and your "staff" for bringing us this wonderful CLPA forum. You have made it very easy for us "retreads" to come back to our roots in CL. 

Regards, 

Take away starting points. Take away pattern points.Take away appearance points. Take away flight scores next and we will be just like little league. Show up and you win! Get real! Stop taking away things and add some points by building a model. Easy.

""I believe we get scored on 15 maneuvers now, no pattern points. ""

HI Bill

AS of Jan 1  pattern points are 25 points and are back in the scoring

Randy

Thanks, Randy.  

I knew that, I am just all discombobulated with what's going on here at the homestead.......   I gotta get Gail well SOON! LOL!!

Bill

Overall, there are MORE people flying C/L now than there was 10 years ago, and more CLPA contestants.  Maybe not PAMPA members, but people who are actually flying and attending contests across the country.

Big Bear

Big Bear...I'm not real sure I would agree with that on a local basis. We gain some and lose some, but the ecomedy (sic) has been a major factor. So, some folks show up at two contests a year, instead of all of them, or maybe only one. We even have a few who can't manage to renew their passports...not sure why, but it's not real cheap, and you gotta bring pictures of yourself, and then there's the cost of camera repair$... Steve

Hi Steve,

Maybe not the best explanation on my part.  It's just that there are more people competing, even on a "part time" basis, and more just doing "sport flying", so to speak.  There has been a rise in the C/L numbers as far as "that" section goes.  Not like the hey day of th e'50s-'60s, but a LOT better than the, say, '80s!  And other than those that are passing on to the big field in the heavens, those that start, or comeback to, C/L tend to keep at it longer than the "average R/C guy".  Of course there are MORE people flying R/C, in all its "types", but so many just come and go, some after a very brief period.  And a lot of those never come back, they just move on to the next "hobby du jour".

Thanks,
Bill

(snip)
What's an SS?

For Chebbies, it was the "Super Sport" option...... bucket seats, Super Sport badges......  Always wanted a SS '66 Chevelle.

(man I KNOW this will get me in trouble with someone!)

Bill