News:



  • April 23, 2024, 08:01:28 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s  (Read 2976 times)

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« on: February 27, 2017, 10:22:54 AM »
Engine:
I have, a OS FP .40 w/Muffler, an OS LA .40 W/Muffler, and a Silver Foxx .40 w/tongue muff....all with Front NVAs

What engine seems best suited for this ARF?
This will be my very first inverted engine model.

Please kind sirs... I know many many of you think the .46 is the ONLY proper engine... I do NOT have one, nor intend to seek one out

For what it is worth, I searched here and read every thread there is on SH about ARF Noblers (quite a bit of old and new information)

I have a full set of Tom Morris controls (with 3"BC) to install

I have read suggestions to NOT Epoxy the control horns into the Flaps or Elevator.. would like opinions on this subject... That said, if I did NOT glue the horn in the holes I would certainty harden the hole with CA

I have seen several references to re-making the vert stab and rudder to real air foil shape...is there some compelling reason to do this other than correct look... (I sport fly only for my own giggles)

Yes Virginia, I do intend to fuel proof and reinforce the nose, add a weight box, and some other recommended "improvements"

BUT that said, is there a compelling reason to cut open the wing tip and add adjustable lead outs? ...I have several of Pat Johnston's versions

Much has been written on the new supplied Plastic 6 Oz clunk tank-- but I never did see a way to adjust tank height...trial fitting there is not hardly any up or down adjust-ability ...I do see I can skew the outer back corner slightly to outside of circle, and I do plan muff pressure and standard vent for the TF supplied plastic tank... Opinions, ideas, hints

Yes I know I could adapt the tank to use Uniflo and the "z" bend trick to adjust vent height inside the tank

Final question, and this is an area I suck at on all the kits I have built"

I see several references to insuring the wing and stab incidences are checked and set 0 0.... BUT I get the impression that the engine mounts already have built in down thrust

So the question is what do I use to reference a true 0 0 incidence on the ARF?

BUT since I sport fly only with the occasion loop, wing over, my Crazy Ivan (long oval loop) and just a bunch of ad hoc maneuvers, is fiddling with a perfect 0 0 incidence really worth any effort?







"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22773
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 11:06:27 AM »
Yes there is tons of info on here about the ARF Nobler if you do a search.  Really the only thing I didn't like was the control system.  Replaced the bell crank and lead outs on mine.  Also redid the pushrods to ball links.   The design is suited for light engines like the Fox .35 Stunt with no muffler.  Mine right now is flying with the EVO .36 and over an ounce of lead in the tail.  The plastic cowl is in the shop.  If you are flying it just for the fun of it, any of the engines you list will work.  If the plane is in the mid to high 40 ounce range you may have to fly a little faster.  As I said the Nobler was dwsigned around the Fox 35 Stunt which is fine with the supplied fuel tank. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 12:24:50 PM »
BUT since I sport fly only with the occasion loop, wing over, my Crazy Ivan (long oval loop) and just a bunch of ad hoc maneuvers, is fiddling with a perfect 0 0 incidence really worth any effort?
well the simple answer is, do what makes you ahppy, but I can promise you, the more accurate and better aligned the model is, the more fun you will have with it, especially if there is a serious problem with incidence that you choose to overlook and it ends up causing in flight issues and ultimatly a ground penetrating crash,, so short answer, do whatever you choose, long answer please, at the very least check and verify the incidence as assembled
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 01:04:58 PM »
Mark I get that ---but there were enough references to checking the 0 0 incidence...(I assumed a not correctly cut or built ARF)

My muddled writing caused the confusion to the real question.

As the engine bearers are (assumed) built with down thrust what is the correct datum line I need to use to see if the wing, Stab, or both are on a 0 0 plane?

The follow on would be ...considering my inept flying ability and preference for just sport flying is....IF, on this plane is a 1/2 degree diff really worth fiddling with

Are they usually close or is this a real issue and some are way whacked?

Additionally I mostly build Profiles and this is very first full fuse craft. On the profiles I check this on the plan and the fuselage with Two long straight edges.  I do not have twin incidence meters ( or even just one) but if I did again what datum ref would I level the fuselage to?

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 03:44:13 PM »
The supplied fuel tank works just fine. Both of mine fly with .40s with power to spare. If you make all of the suggested mods they are great flying models.PhillySkip

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 04:57:03 PM »
Fred-
Just try to get the wing and tail at 0-0, and if in doubt, you want the LE of the stab up ever so slightly, as opposed to the LE of the stab slightly low (this is bad).
After that is set and all square, wing to stab, get the engine as close to 0 as possible, with about 2* right thrust. you should be good to go.
Glue on the rudder so that it just doesn't have any "in" tilt. Just barely perceptible out rudder is good.
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 06:55:05 PM »
Mark I get that ---but there were enough references to checking the 0 0 incidence...(I assumed a not correctly cut or built ARF)

My muddled writing caused the confusion to the real question.

As the engine bearers are (assumed) built with down thrust what is the correct datum line I need to use to see if the wing, Stab, or both are on a 0 0 plane?

The follow on would be ...considering my inept flying ability and preference for just sport flying is....IF, on this plane is a 1/2 degree diff really worth fiddling with

Are they usually close or is this a real issue and some are way whacked?

Additionally I mostly build Profiles and this is very first full fuse craft. On the profiles I check this on the plan and the fuselage with Two long straight edges.  I do not have twin incidence meters ( or even just one) but if I did again what datum ref would I level the fuselage to?


I use the wing for reference, then align everything else to that as  a general rule. I dont recall my ARF Nobler having downthrust in it.
Its pretty tough to do without incidence meters,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 08:40:23 AM »
Thanks Mark and all... looks like one or two incidence meters are needed as I move to more and more full fuselage planes

I can see how just installing the wing (where ever it ends up relative to the motor mounts) and making sure the stab incidence is equal or very slightly positive relative to the wing

I also see where I could level the fuse with a bubble on the motor mounts to see (before gluing) that the wing is very close

I just checked Top Flite tech data for the Nobler ARF and in the "Engine Thrust right or down" columns there is no data.
I assume (because these columns do have data for many other models) that the Nobler ARF has no Engine offsets built into the model

And Mark, or others with same opinion...I do try to get it right from the onset-- as some of my models do occasionally get flown by folks who DO know what they are doing

I was sort of hoping for an answers something like;
"These ARFs are close enough as delivered, do not be concerned"
Or
"Yes every Nobler ARF is whacked in this area and MUST be checked and corrected"

I know I know a good habit to have is always checking anyway

Still several questions in original post I would like thoughts or opinions on



"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 08:48:15 AM »
Engine:
I have, a OS FP .40 w/Muffler, an OS LA .40 W/Muffler, and a Silver Foxx .40 w/tongue muff....all with Front NVAs

[font=Verdana]If you are an engine guy or comfortable I would probably go with the LA, opinions vary , I am not an LA 40 fan, but the FP can be a handfull unless you follow the info you can find on here. I had good luck with the FPs I used but I had help[/font]

What engine seems best suited for this ARF?
This will be my very first inverted engine model.

Please kind sirs... I know many many of you think the .46 is the ONLY proper engine... I do NOT have one, nor intend to seek one out
Unfortunate, the LA 46 is IMHO better than any of the three listed

For what it is worth, I searched here and read every thread there is on SH about ARF Noblers (quite a bit of old and new information)

I have a full set of Tom Morris controls (with 3"BC) to install
Good plan, controls ate mine

I have read suggestions to NOT Epoxy the control horns into the Flaps or Elevator.. would like opinions on this subject... That said, if I did NOT glue the horn in the holes I would certainty harden the hole with CA
[font=Verdana]If the alignment of the horn and hinges is solid, its not a problem, however I have taken to making my surfaces removable so harden the hole but dont epoxy[/font]

I have seen several references to re-making the vert stab and rudder to real air foil shape...is there some compelling reason to do this other than correct look... (I sport fly only for my own giggles)
This is kind of like rudder offset, current thinking is no, no offset, no airfoil

Yes Virginia, I do intend to fuel proof and reinforce the nose, add a weight box, and some other recommended "improvements"

BUT that said, is there a compelling reason to cut open the wing tip and add adjustable lead outs? ...I have several of Pat Johnston's versions

Yes, an adjustable leadout is important, I thought the ARF had one on it as it came out of the box

Much has been written on the new supplied Plastic 6 Oz clunk tank-- but I never did see a way to adjust tank height...trial fitting there is not hardly any up or down adjust-ability ...I do see I can skew the outer back corner slightly to outside of circle, and I do plan muff pressure and standard vent for the TF supplied plastic tank... Opinions, ideas, hints

I make my own tanks ( well prior to going electric) no comment on plastic tanks except I dont like them , my opinion

Yes I know I could adapt the tank to use Uniflo and the "z" bend trick to adjust vent height inside the tank

Final question, and this is an area I suck at on all the kits I have built"

I see several references to insuring the wing and stab incidences are checked and set 0 0.... BUT I get the impression that the engine mounts already have built in down thrust

So the question is what do I use to reference a true 0 0 incidence on the ARF?

BUT since I sport fly only with the occasion loop, wing over, my Crazy Ivan (long oval loop) and just a bunch of ad hoc maneuvers, is fiddling with a perfect 0 0 incidence really worth any effort?

Get incidence meters and do it right, but dont get the silly laser version, I have one and cannot give it away, I hate it





For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: And still some more Nobler ARF ???s
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 09:54:16 AM »
Thank you Mark for taking the time to add your thoughts

I was/am leaning to the LA 40 (cuz I love the simplicity and set ups for these are out there a lot)
Then I happened on the Lew Woolard Fox 40 and thought a Nobler just begged for a Fox ....back of mind noting that TF really built and recommends the OS LA 40

Additional Info

I still do, and will always, dork my airplanes when trying new maneuvers or loosing focus and starting maneuver wrongly relative to the wind...

On the days I get to fly--- I take two types of planes with me... a couple of (3) beater RSTs to fly and not care about dorking ---and one or two of my better models that I am very conservative with

Flying again after a long long absence, I am able to fly the pretty planes and bring them home unmolested

Non Beater planes done that I enjoy flying:

Griffin ARF S-1 Ring Master with Fox 35
Mongoose with OS FX 25
Black Hawk Demon with Fox .36BB


On the way to first flights this year:

Pat Johnston Ring Master Gold for true BBTU 
Primary Force with LA 25
Pat Johnston 526 Ring master with Evo .36
This Nobler ARF...most likely OS LA 40
Brodak ME109 with Evo .36
Sky Ray with True BBTU power
Stock Twister engine not decided yet
Francherized Twister FP 40 or Evo .36 not decided yet

Yes, an ambitious schedule, but several are already in finishing stages and a few are built by an expert friend of mine

BTW--- After reading a lot about the TF Nobler ARF ---I would NEVER have deliberately bought one ---but did plan to have at least ONE Nobler in my Hanger

My recent down time with kidney stone had me on my ass for a extended period and my loving wife decided to order me up the Nobler ARF as a Pop Pop chair project ---not knowing this is NOT a screw the wings and engine on model





« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:50:54 AM by Fredvon4 »
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here