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Author Topic: Wasp with Cox TD venturi  (Read 4927 times)

Offline Bill Adair

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Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« on: July 08, 2009, 04:11:40 PM »
Ran my Wasp today, with the TD venturi installed.

First off, it does not seem to draw fuel very well, but I got it running with a starter.

Also, my tach was not working well, because of poor lighting at the field (dark overcast, and surrounded by trees).

RPM with an APC 5.7 X 3 prop, using Brodak 10%, half A fuel, was as high as 24.3K!!! At that RPM I could lean it farther, but could not get a rich setting much lower than this peak.

Checked the venturi bore here at home, and it takes a #24 drill, or .152" diameter. I don't know the normal TD bore size, so I have no idea if this is normal?

Another old TD that I have, has a bore approximately equal to a #31 drill, or .120" (my #31 drill is missing, so this is a guess).

I'm thinking the venturi I have installed, has been drilled out for pressurized fuel feed.

HELP!!!!!

Bill

Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2009, 11:40:40 PM »
Larry,

Just saw your message under the Tee Dee Questions thread, and wanted to thank you for providing the answer to my question above.  H^^

The 5/32 venturi drill you mentioned for pressure fed fuel systems, is pretty close to my venturi opening size, and explains the problem I'm seeing with fuel feed on suction!

Checked my second spare venturi, and it is the same size as my other TD's, so I'm going to install that one.

My Wasp sure did scream with that big intake stack!  ;D

Bill

Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 06:17:11 PM »
Success, well almost. HB~>

The stock TD venturi starts easy, and runs much better, but it's only turning about 18K on Brodak 10% nitro. The crankshaft does not seem to be binding, and the crankcase doesn't get very hot while running.

Attempting to make a second run revealed that the needle body was loose on the venturi, even though the venturi does not turn?  I snugged it down pretty firmly on installation, but did not use a wrench. I'm going to seal it with high temp RTV before the next run.

Does anyone else, use any kind of sealant on the TD venturi?

Bill (Happily flying control line again, after a 49 year break!)
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 08:02:10 PM »
       Bill, I purchased a older Ame which is identical to my Stels engine which was missing the needle venturi. Some of the Stels engines had the venturi carb body glued in with some kind of epoxy. The engine I have has a nylon like insert that has threads within it. I found that a Cox Tee Dee carb assembly screwed right into these threads. The one problem was getting it tight like you stated. I thought about using some of the Permatex brand gasket sealer but was concerned about a few things. The Tee Dee venturi has the jet holes 360 deg. around the perimeter. I was concerned about any material getting in there and clogging them. I've also had to take the venturi out in the field to unclog those holes with fine wire. I opted for a little teflon tape on the threaded portion and called it good. Ken

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 10:43:55 PM »
Ken,

That's a good idea for keeping the threads snug, I'll have to remember that.

What I think I'm seeing, is the venturi extends past the aluminum adapter, and bottoms against the bottom of the case opening. The plastic housing on a Cox TD is deeper than the opening in the AP Wasp case, so it's no problem on a TD.

Yep, just checked my other venturi in the other adapter, and the venturi protrudes just a hair past the bottom of the adapter.  HB~>

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Graham Collins

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 10:30:45 AM »
Hi Bill,

Interesting.  I have noted the condition you have found with the 2 AP 061 I have modified as you have done.

From you description I am not sure just what is happening. Is the threaded adapter sitting below the level of top of the CS crankcase where the venturi mounts? It should be just below this level.  A thin fiber washer/gasket between the TD needle assembly and the CS crankcase might help.  If indeed the venturi itself is long enough that it is bottoming out on the CS crankcase venturi area then you could also shorten the TD venturi a bit (or taper the outside end a bit).  I have 4 TD  venturi's on hand and they all measure the same length - could be there are some that are longer.

I consistently get about 19.5K out of mine running 15% fuel and a Graupner 6x3 nylon prop (even with a scored cylinder no less - must have lost a plug element and it worked it's way back through the engine)

cheers, Graham

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 02:35:41 PM »
Hi Graham,

Prior to installation, the engine was disassembled, and the case plus all adapter and venturi parts were soaked overnight in mineral spirits, and wiped down with 99% Isopropyl alcohol.

The first time I installed the adapter it was pushed all the way in, so it sat a little below the top surface of the carb opening. When I screwed the venturi in and tightened it very gently, it pulled the adapter up against the needle body, and broke the adhesive bond.

Disassembled and cleaned again, and reassembled with the adapter flush with the carb opening. Ran the engine, and found that the venturi had been drilled out for a pressure fuel system!

When I attempted to remove the venturi, the adapter broke loose again, and came out with the venturi.

Disassembled and cleaned again, and reseated the second adapter flush with the top of the carb opening. Gave it a couple days to cure the adhesive, and ran it on the bench. It started much easier, and ran great. On the last attempt to start it that day, it would only run out the prime, because the adapter had broken free again, and it was leaking air into the case!

I'm going to try it one more time, with thin gaskets to keep the venturi from bottoming out.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 09:55:50 PM »
I glued my adapter in with JB weld.  Like the Pig and bacon, compared to the Chicken and eggs (Commitment compared to Involvement) I am happy to say, that I have had no problems.   H^^

I wiped some 'weld into the crankcase opening, and a thin smear on the outside of the adapter and used a plate to push it in flush.  Q-tip with wood alcohol to clean up everything,; bingo the first time.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 10:19:53 PM »
Larry,

Thanks for the info!

Guess I'll get some JB Weld, and try that on mine. This pricey automotive stuff just doesn't seem to hold.

What's funny, is that I tried a thin coat of Locktite Blue (242) threadblocker to seal the needle body to the venturi, and it held firm when the Permatex Sleeve Retainer failed!  HB~>

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Graham Collins

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2009, 05:12:43 AM »
JB Weld would work too.  Norvels have had thier venturi assembly glued in but I couldn't say what they used, whether it was an epoxy or some other two or one part adhesive is anyones guess (unless someone reading this really does know?)

I have no practical experience with the Permatex sleeve retainer you had asked me about earlier and a quick review of the Permatex info seemed to indicate that it should be OK - however, you have proven that to not be so. Perhaps it is not resilent to our fuels (either the alchohol or nitro)?

I used Loctite 609 as I always have some on hand. Securing pinions to shafts of electric motors and many other similar chores has proven it usefullness to me over and over. I have even had test samples (a short piece of 3/32 copper tube secured into a short piece of 1/8 brass tube and left in a jar of 30% nitro fuel for a week) have shown no decernable weakening, loosening or other deterioration.  I don't know it's current off the shelf price but a small bottle (1/2 ounce or something close) lasts me 1 to 1-1/2 years.

cheers, Graham

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 08:56:55 PM »
Graham, and Larry,

Ran the AP Wasp again.

The Cox venturi adapter is now glued in with J-B Weld, and it seemed to hold just fine for the two short runs I made today.

My Tach was reading 19.5K on the last run, on the same APC prop (5.7 X 3) and Brodak 10% fuel that I've used previously. I think it's finally had enough break-in time.

One thing I did differently this time around, was to use the original Wasp (carb) O-ring under the Cox needle valve body, rather than an adhesive seal. The venturi fits snugly into the needle body at the top, so it was installed with no seal other than the mechanical fit.

I was incorrect about there being no cylinder base gasket on this engine. What threw me, is that they used a practically invisible clear plastic gasket! Seems to work fine, and stayed in place on the cylinder assy through three solvent washes, until I pulled it off with a dental pick!

Another nice feature of the AP Wasp engine, is the oil access hole drilled (and deburred) in the bottom of the rod big end. I don't remember seeing this done on any other engine this size?

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Graham Collins

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 09:18:05 AM »
Glad to hear it's all working out now.

On RcUniverse there are a bunch of 1/2a'ers and they generally don't have much good to say about the AP 061's.  On the control line forums it seems quite the opposite.  I realize that the AP061 is an inexpensive Chinese clone of the Norvel 061 and many have reported issues and some QA issues. I have had three (still do) and haven't had any problems any of them - the only problem with the stock engines have been the RC carbs (poor fit).  I guess it comes down to a different application and a different point of view.

cheers, Graham

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2009, 08:02:36 PM »
Graham,

Stands to reason that the R/C crowd would be less than pleased with that AP carb, and there is little they can do (short of replacing it) to make it work better.

Ran mine again today, and it's hitting 20K RPM, with the same setup used previously. Perhaps it wasn't completely broke in, after all?

The JB Weld is still holding your adapter well, but we installed a new piece of fuel line over the needle to hold it firmer (no ratchet on this one). A friend thinks this needle valve is not a standard TD half A needle, but perhaps an .09 Medallion unit? Not sure the threads are the same, but I have two needle bodies that this needle fits, and the second one is a little different.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 12:06:51 AM »
I have recently flown the Wasp/Cox combo again.  I find it very reliable with uniflo tank venting, but not with a conventional tank.  Power is excellent.  I do use a fine thread needle system rather than the original Cox (flaunt it if ya got it!) (But they are still avialiable from TexasTimers).

Sadly, the engine put out enough power that the model committed suicide by folding the outboard wing.  So much for SkyFire 3.   ~^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 05:23:45 AM »
I hate it when that happens.
--Ray 
Roseville MN (St. Paul suburb, Arctic Circle)
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2009, 08:48:52 AM »
I haven't messed with the Wasp as an R/C engine, so I don't know what problems they have over on the "Dark Side".  However, from my work developing the carb for the Cox TD R/C 05 and 09, there is much that can be done to get great transitions with a bit of filing here or there on the drum and carb body.  Addition of an adjustable bleed hole for mid-range running is a good thing too!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Adair

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2009, 09:29:32 AM »
Wow, the Wasp folded your Skyfire wing!  ~^

I was about to install the Wasp on a Baby Flitestreak, but perhaps I'd better use a less powerful engine?

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 11:38:27 AM »
The Baby Flite Streak is plenty strong, it was designed as a combat model.  Not to worry!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 02:17:26 PM »
Are adapters for the TD venturi arrangement or other venturi arrangement still available for the AP .061 Wasp?

Thanks.

V/r, Target
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Chris
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 02:24:49 PM »
                       Chris, RSM was selling the adapters a good  many years ago and I'm certain there's none left. A club member made my adapter for the TD venturi and needle. I removed the screws that held the stock r/c carb and tapped them out for the set screws used on wheel collars to retain the adapter. I had very good results using it. Unfortunately, the bronze bushing wore out in the case very quickly. He replaced the bushing and it was a terrific running engine , still is. The thread size for the TD assembly is 1/4-32 just like the glow plug.

Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 03:51:13 PM »
Thanks Ken, just checking.
Maybe my buddy Larry Renger has some squirreled away.
I have two new AP's coming from China via FeeBay.
These are destined for stunt ships eventually, so hopefully the bush will be OK swinging a balanced 6x2 or 6x2.5 at the lower RPMs.

R,
Target
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 07:05:48 PM »
                The glo head gasket is aluminum, it really is crude and can be problematic in terms of leaking. A cox copper washer is a better option. The stock AP plugs are actually not bad in terms of performance. A Galbreath/Nelson head adapter is a superior choice. Cox plugs from TD's and stock plugs fit as well as Norvel plugs. The bolt pattern is the same as a TD with the exception of mount to mount which is a bit wider. One thing that can be a pain in the rear is the shaft size for the prop. You need to open your stock 1/2A props due to the shaft being larger.

Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 01:35:00 AM »
Thanks for the tips, Ken. I have a few of the galbreath adapters already.
Bummer about the prop shaft size.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2017, 10:07:02 PM »
    I have been reading up on all the threads about the Wasp modifications and just did one myself. I don't have access to a lathe any more so was trying to figure out a way to make an adapter that anyone could do as long as they had the 1/4"-32 tap and a drill or drill press. The required adapter needs to be .275" in outside diameter and around .221 inside diameter to allow enough material for the tap to cut threads. That doesn't leave very much. I could not find any tubing in those dimensions but after fiddling around a little bit discovered that is you telescope 1/4" brass tubing inside some 9/32" brass tubing, you get the correct I.D. you need to tap, and the O.D. is only a few thousandths of an inch too big and can be worked down using the old hand held drill or drill press trick as a lathe and a file with some sand paper to finish off. Once you have the threads cut and the ends dressed down and it fits the venturi well, then you can take an old glow plug and chuck it up in your drill, thread on the adapter and work it down to the dimension needed. Then you can tap out the holes in the case for a couple of set screws or do as I did and JB-Weld it in place so you don't have to risk any distortion. Now all I gotta do is build a model to try it out on and I have a 1/2A Pathfinder sitting within eye shot of me typing this that will be the test bed.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   PS;  I got my venturi assembly with needle valve from EX Models for $12.95 each.
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Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2017, 01:29:36 AM »
Thanks for sharing the alternate method you found, Dan. I'll keep that in the back of my mind as i press forward.
V/r,
Target
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Chris
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Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2019, 02:18:20 AM »
Here is my cox/AP Wasp.
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Chris
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2019, 07:43:05 AM »
  Looks good. What did you use? The neat thing about this adaptation is that you can flip the intake collar over and put the needle valve at the back and give yourself some more finger clearance from the prop, and put it on either side of the model depending on how the engine is mounted.. I gotta get some stuff cleaned up and get this back on the front burner!
  Type at you later,
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Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2019, 08:37:32 AM »
My OFB turned a piece of Delrin into an adapter for me.
And yeah, I'll probably do as you mention. I can also sweep the needle back if i don't mind the fuel line being swept slightly towards the prop.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2019, 11:03:32 AM »
2009 to 2019 only 10 years not the oldest NECRO thread but close....
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2019, 12:10:16 PM »
Wait until I get over onto RCG!!!
<=

Guess whose spray bar parts I used?? Thank you Fred!!!

PS. What are you TD fanatics using for a wrench on the venturi? Does the cox wrench fit it? Because my ignition wrench set is a little too thick to fit the flatted section comfortably.
Thanks,
Target,
Raiser of the dead, aka necromancer.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2019, 12:27:01 PM »
Target,

Man, I love this adapter! I'm glad you revisited this thread. A few years back, I also researched the same material. Somehow I missed this adapter/Cox Venturi mod. Maybe I stopped just short of this particular modification...I probably managed to get the JH venturi and stopped looking.

The price is awesome as long as the adapter is short change.

Like I mentioned, I have a Jan Haluzko venturi on a well broken-in AP .061. If I could score an aluminum adapter, I'd buy the EXModels Cox assembly for a side-by-side comparison with the JH venturi. I also have a short stack of props and a tachometer.
The test could be atmospheric pressure-fed times two one minute runs per prop vs muffler pressure-fed times two one minute runs per prop. I can video the runs.

So Target,
Can you make a couple more adapters?

Thanks,



Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2019, 12:45:13 PM »
Wait until I get over onto RCG!!!
<=

Guess whose spray bar parts I used?? Thank you Fred!!!

PS. What are you TD fanatics using for a wrench on the venturi? Does the cox wrench fit it? Because my ignition wrench set is a little too thick to fit the flatted section comfortably.
Thanks,
Target,
Raiser of the dead, aka necromancer.

    Yes, there is a section on the wrenches that come with TD engines that fits this hex flats.  Otherwise you can probably make something up out of sheet metal that will hold up easily enough.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2019, 12:46:36 PM »
2009 to 2019 only 10 years not the oldest NECRO thread but close....


   Hi Fred;
   Yes, there are no new problems, just new people experiencing the old ones !!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2019, 01:10:57 PM »

   Hi Fred;
   Yes, there are no new problems, just new people experiencing the old ones !!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Truer words were never spoken.

FYI, I never post a new thread without at least a basic search of the topic. That is how I came onto the adapter piece I think that David Gardener posted.
Vr,
Target
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Chris
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Offline Target

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Re: Wasp with Cox TD venturi
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2019, 01:21:07 PM »
Target,

Man, I love this adapter! I'm glad you revisited this thread.

So Target,
Can you make a couple more adapters?

Thanks,

Jim-
It is a flying buddy that made this, so I can't volunteer (voluntell?) him to make you some. Sorry bud.

However, I think that Dan has a plan (sorry for the word play, Dan) that could work well. Even better I think would be to source some thick(ish) walled 9/32" aluminum tube (or brass) and do as he suggested, and spin the outside to OD spec on a drill press, then when the fit is right, tap it for the 1/4-32 threads that fit the TD rig.
Personally, I would skip the pinch bolts in the case and just glue in the adapter with some scuffing, acetone, and JB weld. If you put the JB on the adapter and invert the engine on assembly, you should avoid tragedy, I think....
I'll look for suitable tubing myself at MMC or wherever and if I am successful, maybe I will retire early, and go into the AP Wasp conversion business! Should be really lucrative!
So If I do find the tubing (and I have 2 more new AP's, so there IS incentive), I'll let you know.

R,
Target
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 01:52:18 PM by Target »
Regards,
Chris
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