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Author Topic: T.D. .049 engine performance  (Read 3115 times)

Offline GGeezer

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T.D. .049 engine performance
« on: January 12, 2014, 09:52:23 PM »
This note is directed to Andrew from Rutland:

You have mentioned a number of times that you are having trouble getting a reliable run with the TD .049 on normal suction. I too have had these problems but I may have stumbled onto something.
I have a Coroplast ManWin powered by a TD .049 (factory NV assembly) which I use for stunt training. The tank is a 1 oz. square plastic clunk tank that I plumbed up as a uniflow. I was getting inconstant engine runs and couldn't find a NV setting that would work well. High nitro fuel (35%) helped the needling somewhat but wasn't the complete answer.

I was ready to give up in frustration when a thought occurred to me. My fuel line from the tank to the engine was the 1/2A size silicone tubing with an I.D. of around 1/16". Was my fuel line causing the trouble?
I installed the medium size silicone tubing with an I.D. of just under 1/8". I started the engine and right away noticed a difference. The engine needled well and the engine performed flawlessly in all flight attitudes. I have literally hundreds of flights (and a number of crashes) on this model and hardly have had to touch the needle during a session.
This solution didn't seem to have a scientific basis and could have just been a fluke so I switched back to the small fuel line and... walla... the problem returned.

I would be interested to see if this solution fixes your TD problems, please let me know the results if you try it.

Orv.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 10:36:49 AM »
Hello Orv,
Thanks very much for posting that. It looks as though it may be my problem too. I too am using 1/16" 1/2A tubing which I think came from Bernie. It will be a few days before I can try the 1/8" tubing in anger as it lousy weather over here. It should be OK tomorrow, but I have a fence to mend ......... At least I can try the 1/8" without flying, to see what the difference is. I will get back to you when I have given it a try!

Thanks,

Andrew.
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 09:47:38 AM »
Hello Orv,
It worked! Still a tad difficult to get a good setting, but when you have dialled it in, the results are excellent. Now I wonder why? I would swear that the 1/16  tubing would have flowed sufficient fuel for the TD. I don't have the problem with Norvel engines using the same tubing. That is just weird!

Thanks for the tip,

Andrew.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 10:48:28 AM »
It is weird -- I use short (1-1/2") lengths of 1/16" ID tubing as a super-flexible clunk line for OS 20FP and OS 25LA engines, and it works just fine.
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Offline Duke.Johnson

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 11:28:33 AM »
I've had this problem too.  I haven't tried the 1/8" tube yet, but the plumber in me says the 1/8" tube may compensate for something lacking with volume.  I also use the 1/16" tube on me clunks with now problems.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 09:31:40 PM »
I wonder if a Medallion carb body on a Tee Dee would help it draw better and still get the same power. I never thought to try that before I found pressure bladders, which ended all of my fuel supply frustrations of Tee Dees. I haven't used a hard tank since.

Rusty
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Offline Wayne Collier

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 10:08:53 PM »
This explains a lot.  In running a bone stock TD .049 on a 3/4 oz wedge tank I never once had a hard start or inconsistent run.  I would read the posts about balloons and bladders and various forms of pressure.  I never once had the problems that these things were supposed to solve.  I never said anything because most of the people posting had far more experience with TDs than I did.  I was never sure why I did not have the "common" problems associated with TDs.

I never used 1/16" fuel line.  Since there was no hobby shop in my area, I was using tygon line trimmer fuel line from a local hardware store.  Was this the reason I never had the problems other people were having?

Could all the mods really be just compensating for undersized fuel line?

Not sure if it is true, but I read somewhere that the real reason that Don Garlets put a body on his dragster was to hide the 1" diameter fuel lines?
Wayne Collier     Northeast Texas
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 01:28:05 AM »
Hi Wayne and Orv.
Hard to believe we've all missed this over the years, something as simple as a wider fuel line. Almost like a no brainer, one of those head slappers.

I do love Tee Dees on a bladder, so simple with the lack of bulk compared to a hard tank and never coughs in a loop. But I have a Tee Dee powered Baby Streak that I can try with a wedgie and a fat fuel line and see how it works. I even built it with the tank hooks but never used them. Guess I better rummage up a stock venturi. I'll report back with my results... if Winter ever gives me a good day to fly. Rain for the past six weekends, and wind this one.

Looking forward to trying this,

Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Online kenneth cook

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 06:56:56 AM »
                    Orv is using a uniflow clunk setup. While most figure a tank is a tank, I feel this is more important to his success using the TD on suction opposed to the fuel tubing. While the tubing is a contributing factor, this became very relevant to me early on using small Perfect tanks. They use the oddest type size of tubing which is absolutely too small. You can't find a tubing to fit it properly and thus the i.d. is much too small. I take those tanks apart the minute I get them and replumb with the correct size. Where is your tank Orv in regards to your engine?  I'm thinking it's directly behind the engine if it's the same plane I'm thinking off. This in turn is another reason as to why I feel  your tank is working better than most  on draw. On a profile using a wedge the pickup is too far outboard which makes the engine work harder to draw fuel. The other problem is that somewhere during the run using a wedge the engine really starts struggling for fuel due to the head pressure lowering as the volume decreases. Uniflow will help this situation, but it doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that you need a longer narrower tank. Many of the profiles don't allow for this. The solution is to pad the engine off the bearers outboard or recess the tank into the fuse like they do on larger stunters. I've played with many setups through the years only to settle on bladder. It just works with no fuss. While some claim and I'm not disputing the fact that they get the engine to run correctly, I just feel that somewhere through the run the engine wants to hiccup typically in the overhead maneuvers. I would like to see pictures if possible of the setups that work flawlessly as claimed so I can attain the knowledge I've missed somewhere. Ken

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 10:48:24 AM »
Hi Ken,
I have not flown a plane with the 1/8th tubing. I have just altered the orientation of the plane and that quite rapidly. Literally waving it around. On 1/8th tubing , the engine runs faultlessly, on 1/16 it certainly doesn't!
  Weather and workload have prevented me from trying the set up for real. I don't know if this is a solution to a longstanding problem or if it is a red herring. All I can say with certainty is there is something different in the two setups. Like you, I find it difficult to believe and cannot for the life of me think of a good reason why there is a difference.
  I will report back when I can actually fly the plane with 1/8th tubing. Despite my scepticism I think that the 1/8th will give me a different result. I will report back when I can get flying.

Andrew.
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 05:40:56 AM »
Hello Ken,
Just saw your bit on "some people think a tank is a tank". Well I have tried all sorts of tanks, from standard wedge to clunk uniflow. Yes they are different in usage, but none of them ever cured the problem of engine dithering in high to overhead maneuvers. The best was a clunk uniflow setup on a full bodied stunter, closely followed by a standard wedge tank on the INBOARD of a profile. In fact it wasn't quite a wedge but a rectangular tank pinched down a touch at the rear pick up point.
  I could live with both of these setups, BUT they were far from perfect runs.

Andrew
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Online kenneth cook

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 06:13:22 AM »
                  Andrew, I always felt that a rectangular pinched down tank was the solution. Al Rabe does this and it seems to hold the fuel in that corner as intended. I have tried for fun a bit of 1/2A speed. I never ever could get a good run out of a suction tank. But, once I introduced uniflow and used a rectangular tank that was taller than it's width, problems went away. Now, one would think that getting a plane to fly level and fast should be quite easy. I found it to be the most frustrating thing in the entire hobby. I was self taught through this experience and that made things even more frustrating although it gained a lot of knowledge. If you look at any tank used in racing today, they're coffin shaped with the rear being gradually pinched or ramped down to the rear with the far outboard corner sometimes pinched. Recently I did my kit bashed RSM Miss Ashley where I turned it into a Magician like the Brodak version. I have the Perfect wedge installed from the inboard side with the majority of the tank on the inboard and the pickup is only 3/8" sticking out the outboard side of the fuse. Now I experienced extreme problems. The faster the plane goes, the richer the engine runs. No fuel draw problems, just the opposite. The plane is launched screaming lean, the second it gets into level flight it slows, then it rockets through the manuevers and once again slows in level flight. Tank height is not an issue now but the tank in my opinion needs to be shimmed side to side opposed to up and down. Ken
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 06:34:57 AM by kenneth cook »

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 11:14:54 AM »
Thanks for that insight Ken. As you so neatly described, putting the tank inboard isn't a good solution. However in the case of the TD 0.049, it was a poor solution to the problem. Run up the engine and lean it out just before it cuts and launch quick! With my set up (as with yours) the mixture richened up to give an about right setting for the engine. Difficult to set up, but it did work! If I had the ability to push the tank through the fulelage. It would have worked much better!

Thanks,

Andrew.
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Offline GGeezer

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 06:03:31 PM »
Hi Folks,
I am really pleased with the comments pertaining to my TD observations. I am particularly pleased that Andrew was able to replicate and legitimize my observations.
In order to clarify and address some of Ken's comments, I will give you the complete history.

1. My first setup featured a 1 oz metal Perfect wedge tank as shown in the first attached photo. It was plumbed with small DuBro 1/2A fuel line. The results were not satisfactory at all. The engine was difficult to needle and the run characteristics were all over the map. I could not get an engine run that I was happy with... and I tried! What I didn't try with this setup was a larger fuel line.

2. I will only use Uniflow tanks for my larger stunters because I can always rely on the tank head pressure remaining the same from start to finish thereby giving a reliable contsant-speed run at whatever needle setting. Ah-ha says I, I bet this might also be the solution to my TD problem so I plumbed up a plastic clunk tank for unilow as shown in the second photo (this photo shows the larger fuel line) and hooked it up the engine with the same tubing I used in step #1.
I still couldn't get a reliable run... Now what?

3. This is when, in desperation, I changed the fuel line to the next size up. Well, I was amazed at how well the engine now needled and ran. I was getting beautiful engine runs from start-up to empty with the plane in all attitudes. In fact, the set-up doesn't give me any warning when the tank goes dry and often some of my crashes come as a result of being overhead when the engine stops abruptly.
As I said in my first post, as a test, I switched back to the small fuel line and the problems returned.

4. But as Ken says, good engine runs result from a number of conditions being just right and my resulting good engine runs can be attributed to both uniflow and large fuel line. My existing set-up isn't perfect. My tank is about 1/4" too high so I get a slightly leaner engine rum inverted. But it is still within the stable operating region of the engine. Lowering the tank would mean cutting into the wing and compromising its integrity.

5. Crashes would most always crack or break the TD's carb. body. I don't know how many times I fixed it. I realized that the in a crash, the venturi would be forced backwards and this is why the body would fail. I think I sorted out the problem. As shown in the third photo, I gobbed a bunch of Devcon steel-filled epoxy around the body and I molded a gusset rib between the venturi and the cylinder. So far, it has resisted my crashing.

6 In hindsight, maybe the TD just has a... dare we say mw~... a finicky female personality and only now works because she likes the sexy purple fuel line fashion accessory ;D.

Orv.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 03:56:10 AM »
Well I got in a couple of flights this morning and Orv is absolutely correct. It was not too easy to get the needle right, but after that, the flights were excellent with a slight speeding up on the last couple of laps. I went back to the smaller diameter tubing and the problems returned.
  So Orv is vindicated, major question is why? I can think of no reason for this behaviour. It goes against common sense. There must be something odd about the TD. My Norvel AME set up works perfectly on the small diameter tubing and the tank set up is identical. This is operating at similar revs on the same prop, so I guess fuel draw is the same (probably a touch higher as the AME revs a little more than the TD), so why the difference in behaviour?
This really has me stumped. Mind you I am really happy that I can use a TD without all the hassle of going to bladder (well its hassle to me if not others!)

Andrew.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: T.D. .049 engine performance
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 09:15:19 AM »
The real fix is to downsize the venturi.  It works great.

Use some wire to keep the spray holes clear.  Epoxy it shut.  Pull out the wires when dry.

Redrill the venturi with a smaller drill.  Trial & error.  Start very small and then run the engine.  You will find a very small loss of power and really great improvement in smoothness.
Paul Smith


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