News:




  • April 26, 2019, 06:59:05 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: 1/2 A log race  (Read 1165 times)

Offline Larry Renger

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3499
1/2 A log race
« on: October 19, 2018, 09:26:35 PM »
We (KOTRC) fly this event at the TOYS FOR TOTS event on the first weekend of December. Speed from a standing start for a 1/2 mile runs near 75 mph.

The model fuselage cross-section must be the Cox reed backplate. Fuselage must be carved “hollow log” not built up or profile. Wing area minimum 56 sq. in.

Cox reed valve engines only. (But there are some really hot reedies from old time out there!)

The club,provides 42x.012 lines and 30% fuel.

$10 toy donation for entry. We also fly a 1cc test that day.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!


Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1502
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2018, 08:32:45 AM »
what other events do thy fly at the Toys for Tots
rad racer

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2018, 10:52:06 AM »
Bob,
Typically percent of record speed (in the cage), along with Run-Whut-U-Brung racing if enough guys show up. Recently, that is mostly SCAR Goodyear. Probably some combat, too, but I never know for sure on that....

McSlow

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2018, 11:10:50 AM »
I gotta say that them hollow logs must be vicious to have to fly them on .012 diameter lines. Even the fastest Mouse racers only use .010 diameter. But then again, I hear that them 'loggers have all the Venom's, and Mousers are just running leftover hybrid product engines, nowadays.

I mean, they fly Porky's Perkys on .012's don't they? And those are pseudo-logs, so they might be vicious, too. With any engine you can afford? Homemade props al carbone. And pipes and all that?

'Course, I'm assuming that Larry is using solids, but mebbe they's stranded cables? So if everyone is using them, they probably have clips and not loops for buttons?

I think I'll pick an event that don't pull so hard. But I sure want to see how them Music-cali-anos go. Don't miss it!

Divot McSlow

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4822
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2018, 11:38:31 AM »
Perky's use .014" x 52'-6".

We use .012" x 42' for 1/2A Combat.  If I were invovled in this event I would be thankful for at least one event that uses the same lines as another standard event.
Paul Smith

Offline Dane Martin

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2018, 01:14:30 PM »
Looks like you got me, Joey Mathison and Dan Moseley coming out. How far back must the log be a constant width?

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2018, 04:26:33 PM »
Danish,

Glad to hear you Vegasino's are coming out. Somebody's got to give Larry a run for his money.

I went looking for the full Log racing rules and came up empty. I would have thought they should be here:

     http://kotrc.org/library-new.php

For lack of that, I will assume that Larry's rules in this thread are all you need. Any Cox reedy combination. Not sure about non-Cox parts like an aftermarket head and Nelson plug. Probably not, especially if you are winning....

Jed K. flew a Bf-109 log a few years back. It had a skinny fuselage if I remember right...so not sure about a "fat fuse" rule. I suppose if you brought the plans with you, you'd be golden.

Anyone have the published rules? Anything in there about vintage 20 lb balsa? Can it be a Luddite design or does it have to be a Scientific?

Divot McSlow

Offline Dane Martin

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2018, 04:42:51 PM »
I'm thinking, and I'm hoping, I can design / scratch build my own design. Then the 3 vegas boys can come out swinging. Or whipping, so to speak.....


Larry, how do the lines connect? Bellcrank buttons or lead out's?

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2018, 08:48:15 PM »
I got no stake in that log race, but if I was running it, I might make anyone from Cibola fly out of a pylon to reduce all that bondage stuff you guys do....  Since it is proto-speed, some good, healthy whippage would really improve your times.

Divot

PS--Dunno if that pan-less speed plane is within the spirit of the rules or not. Here all this time I thought they was running a respectable Musi-cali-ano event....

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1502
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2018, 11:03:49 AM »
#1  are the lines solid or braided
#2 can we use our own lines
#3 can we split the LOG to hollow the log and mount the wing
rad racer

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1502
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2018, 11:04:28 AM »
 Dave ,do they fly Perky
rad racer

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 01:42:23 AM »
Guys, guys, guys---I'm in way over my head here!

1. I am not organizing the event(s) nor am I the CD of record;
2. I did not make, nor can I find a written down copy of the log rules;
3. I have not entered the event(s), nor do I have a plane that currently seems like it even might qualify for logs or porkers.

I did pick up a Porker Perky kit a few years back, and after a look inside, common sense told me to put it back in the closet with the other leftover kits that did not look like any fun to build. So it is stacked along side a Sterling P-38 with the splintered luan fuselage doublers, a no-name brand kit for the 38 Special (the one with "special asymmetric ribs" that might have come from freehand bandsaw work--or may have been cut using the In-Sink-erator the morning after you tipped a few too many. Not sure which. And some other choice stuff. Now I don't want to anthropomorphise here, but the Porky kit is not happy about this situation at all. It is continually blowing out the corners of the cardboard box it is in, and spewing Porkywood around in the vain hope that it will be built before the wood becomes (more) petrified. It is pretty close now, considering the blocks are 20 pounders....

Last year, the T4Ts contest schedule said Perky on it. I can't find a copy for this year, so I don't have a definitive answer. I am not sure who the CD is, for you to contact. It might be Barracuda Howie. You can corner him on the Delphi Speed Forum.

Furthermore and so forth, the log event started by requiring the plane be one of the Walt Musciano designs (Musi-Cali-Anos) and powered by a Cox reedy. Now you all know what happens when the stunt guys start flying a speed or racing event:  they start changing all the rules to "improve things" allowing them to go faster and faster until it is no longer flyable by the speed and racing guys--so only the stunt guys can win. They corrupt all of the engine rules until the only planes that can win use engines that have been out of production for 30 years, and only stunt guys have a private collection of them and endless parts. The rest of us have to settle for Cubs (authentic for Musi-Cali-Anos), or God help us, Winmacs--except these are illegal. So we get by with Cox product motors that we have to pay a rework specialist to bore oversize, hone and polish, and drill out the venturi to .098, and recut the ports, put in a good reed (Teflon pillow type so it will float at high rpm), shave the piston, and on and on. Only stunt guys have that kind of money. Apparently, the event rules try to make up for this by providing lines and fuel for free.

After eavesdropping on some of the guys at a previous contest, apparently the Golden Eagle is the hot ticket for this event. There are a lot of technical reasons for that, but it was kind of over a racing guy's head, so I can't explain it. I think part of it was that the stunt guys got plans for each of the Musi-Cali-Anos and compared the wingspan until they found one with only an 18" wing. That makes it faster. Something like that. Like they told me--it's technical.

So if they do have the event, and I was going to "roll a log," I'd definitely pick the Golden Eagle since it is the only one that can win. And I'd bring a Porky too, in case they allow piped 40's so I'd have enough power to get my 20 lb balsa off the ground. I think I could fit a Nelson into it ok if I change the mounts a little.

But here's the thing:  they may not be running Porkys; it may be Torquettes. Because on those, you can use a Cox lefthand crank TeeDee and eliminate torque rolls from the awesome and overwhelming power of these Atwood beasts. But again, them stunt guys have screwed us all--There were only 27 lefthand TeeDee cranks ever made. Joe broke one on his Torquette because of the power it was making and the remaining 26 aren't all accounted for. But I can't think of any speed and racing guys that got 'em.  So you tell me.

With a little luck, Larry will provide some clear answers to your questions and tell us what kind of time it is going to take to win.

Divot McSlow

PS--I apologize for the detailed explanation above, but felt like you deserved my best attempt at an answer. (Or else I might get whacked if I answered the doorbell tomorrow morning?) And, I will admit I am trying to recover a bit from the flying today. Instead of racing sensible stuff like Rats, and Mice, and Goodyears, I somehow ended up flying the stunt plane I brought to the field in the Fox Speed event. Now, I will tell you that I almost accidentally won that with the engine set at the 4-2 break, except that extreme shame and embarrassment made me back the needle out a little bit more. I mean just imagine, a 14 lap proto event using a prehistoric engine that only Joe Bellcrank could love? In fact, it was almost as "spritely" as my carrier low speed from the contest last weekend, but without even using a throttle. Brilliant!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:00:27 AM by Dave Hull »

Offline Paul Smith

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4822
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2018, 07:33:14 AM »
The genuine Walt Musciano Hollow Log rules required the same airplane (or maybe two counting the spare) to do four events:


Craftsmanship.
Speed - a half mile from a standing start.
Stunt.
Racing, 3-up if possible, often 2-up.


The Golden Hawk and the Bullet were favored subjects.

To qualify for the craftsmanship award the plane needed to fly at least one event.

In 2006, Walt personally attended the contest at Kalamazoo and donated the prizes.



Paul Smith

Offline Dane Martin

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2018, 08:23:19 AM »
Reading through the original post, I don't see anywhere where it says the plane must be a Walt Musciano design. It gives a wing area, a fuse dimension, and such. If it needed to be a Musciano plane, then it should say, Walt Musciano designs only. And then leave it to the entrant to decide which log to roll.
Am I incorrect in this assessment?

Offline Dane Martin

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2018, 08:31:26 AM »

Furthermore and so forth, the log event started by requiring the plane be one of the Walt Musciano designs (Musi-Cali-Anos) and powered by a Cox reedy. Now you all know what happens when the stunt guys start flying a speed or racing event:  they start changing all the rules to "improve things" allowing them to go faster and faster until it is no longer flyable by the speed and racing guys--so only the stunt guys can win. They corrupt all of the engine rules until the only planes that can win use engines that have been out of production for 30 years, and only stunt guys have a private collection of them and endless parts. The rest of us have to settle for Cubs (authentic for Musi-Cali-Anos), or God help us, Winmacs--except these are illegal. So we get by with Cox product motors that we have to pay a rework specialist to bore oversize, hone and polish, and drill out the venturi to .098, and recut the ports, put in a good reed (Teflon pillow type so it will float at high rpm), shave the piston, and on and on. Only stunt guys have that kind of money. Apparently, the event rules try to make up for this by providing lines and fuel for free.

Why does that sound more like fast combat...... S?P

Offline Larry Renger

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3499
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2018, 12:14:52 PM »
Definitely any original design is welcome. I am attaching a couple of photos of my Zippie racer. Also a detail photo showing how the fuselage was done in two halves after external carving.  The cowl was Lost Foam Fiberglass.

I would give a blatant profile model the fish eye!

We provide the lines, handle and fuel. The lines do have line clips.


My engine uses a Venom front end, Galbreath/Nelson head and drilled out Babe Bee tank setup. If it is basically a Cox Reed engine, it is OK. Diesel anyone?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dane Martin

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2417
  • heli pilot BHOR
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2018, 01:51:00 PM »
Thanks for the info, Larry. That's all I needed to finish my project!

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 06:34:05 PM »
Ok, we got some of the rule (changes) verified.

It is a roll-your-own-log event, not a Musi-Cali-Ano. Performance, as predicted, can be expected to be jacked up significantly. But safety should be improved since they should fly a whole lot better. Ducking a Zig-Zag at these tremendous racing speeds is scary.

I'm thinking we need to do a tap test on Larry's fuselage to see if he is hiding a speed pan under that gorgeous red paint.

If it looks like the event will be a walk-off for red airplanes, I may enter a Streaker and see just how horrible a fish eye I get from Larry. It can't be too bad---all my paint jobs have fish eye so I'm used to it. Besides, the Streaker is made from a manly set of logs--all douglas fir and basswood. No frilly balsa for a fuselage.

Divot McSlow


Offline Larry Renger

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3499
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 10:32:23 PM »
Pity me, I only have two more Venom engines. (Only 1100 were made) Bwahaaahaaahaa!  VD~
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Heher

  • Fix-it
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 937
  • I may not always BOM- but I do the re-builds!
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 12:11:02 PM »
This one might stand a chance, and the documentation is all there... book came from a library clearance sale.
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
If it's broke Fix-it
If it ain't broke- let me see it for a minute
AMA 264898- since 1988!

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM »
Well, now, there, Bill--you must be a stunt guy, stirring up trouble like this! And clever too, just like a stunt guy, who are always out-thinking themselves. So let's look at your proposed winner in light of the rules.

First, kudos and bonus to you that you have an official Musi-Cali-Ano plan there. You can always be sure when you see the clever block arrows that tell you what the parts are. Definitely proven provenance.

Second, you are going to have to convince the ED, CD and the on-site rules committee that the engine displacement rule applies individually to your multi. I admit, there is a bit of a vagueness to the rules in this regard. Which the G'knights should fix immediately. Now perhaps you were going to run a pair of PeeWees? That would unquestionably be legal, I think.

Now here's the really clever and insidious thing about this design choice--it is gonna build heavy, and a heavy plane always whips better.  So if I was the circle judge--which I am not--I would invoke a pylon penalty right away. You gotta take the first lap in the pylon. And that don't mean you can shove your arm thru the yoke all the way to the elbow, neither!

But if them G'knights modified the rules some more, and gave out points for scaleyness and appearance, I'd say you got a winner there. Personally, I love to see an F-82 shoot down a Golden Eagle, or even (way) better, a dreaded Zig-Zag. Even Snoopy would take a shot at a Zig-Zag.....

Divot

PS--With a pair of PeeWees, if you have of gotten 'em started sometime that afternoon and managed to go all ten laps, you woulda had a good prospect of winning. For sure you would have placed. Build that sucker, and bring it or mail in for a proxy flight!

Offline Bill Heher

  • Fix-it
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 937
  • I may not always BOM- but I do the re-builds!
Re: 1/2 A log race - source book
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 12:47:50 PM »
Walt's book,  a library clearance sale. bargain...
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
If it's broke Fix-it
If it ain't broke- let me see it for a minute
AMA 264898- since 1988!

Offline Bill Heher

  • Fix-it
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 937
  • I may not always BOM- but I do the re-builds!
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 01:08:31 PM »
2 Pee-Wees- check, 2 Tee Dee .020s - check. 2 TeeDee Piston / Cyl / GlowHeads on fresh PeeWee crankcases with polished shafts and rebuilt tanks so that precious 1.5 cc of fuel doesn't leak out... hmmmm
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
If it's broke Fix-it
If it ain't broke- let me see it for a minute
AMA 264898- since 1988!

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 01:16:55 PM »
No no no no!  No TeeDees! This is a reedy event....

Save the TeeDees so you can lose them on a fleafright.

Divot

Offline john e. holliday

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 20241
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2018, 02:39:47 PM »
I guess that puts the RR1's on the shelf. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530

Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Larry Renger

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3499
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 08:13:35 PM »
I would love to use my RR-1s, but no they are not legal (unless we wanted to start an unlimited class). I may try a Space Bug, as it has a better reed induction system than the later reedies.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dave Hull

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 712
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2018, 12:14:49 AM »
Doc,
Apparently there's you and four other guys who have got an RR1. Leave it in your display case and just run what 99.98% of the rest of the loggy's run.

Divot

Offline Larry Renger

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3499
Re: 1/2 A log race
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2018, 08:08:44 AM »
Ha, I have two, one stock the other modified with a balanced crank and late TD cylinder.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!


Tags: