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Author Topic: Please explain the Venom .049 ??  (Read 2427 times)

Offline Paul Smith

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Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« on: December 14, 2018, 05:28:12 PM »
I understand that it was sort of a factory-hopped-up Black Widow.

When was is sold?

What was upgraded from the basic Black Widow?
Paul Smith

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 05:38:48 PM »
            Paul, I'm certain Larry Renger will comment on this. From what I have seen, it came with the lightened crankshaft. This would be similar to the Killer Bee shaft. It also had a lightened piston where the wall thickness was considerably removed. This was the failure of the engine as they failed due to the crown breaking off. The cylinder configuration was also different from the Black Widow. It was a twin bypass with single flutes per bypass unlike a Sure Start with twin bypass and two flutes. The cylinder also had taper like the old TD thin wall. I believe the venturi was enlarged to the same diameter as the tank itself which was certainly larger than a Black Widow. For some reason I think that may have been .093", it could be .082" I think .093" might be the range it suffers from fuel draw.  It came with the stock 1702 high compression head as well. The drive plate was also similar to the Killer Bee in which it offered more support to the prop hub. I'm not certain of this, but my Killer Bee instructions state that the case clearance offered on the crank was relieved for less resistance. I've always wondered if this was similar on the Venom. The engine was produced in 1996. Ken

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 07:49:20 AM »
Pretty much correct.

Same crank as the Killer Bee. Drilled crankpin and relieved crank web.

Cylinder the same as the final run of Tee Dee. Two bypasses with one extra flute each to induce swirl flow.

Anodized crankcase to reduce wear.

Old style starter spring system. The ratchet one is convenient, but costs rpm.

Added anti-galling washer behind the prop driver to allow electric starter use.

.093 diameter venturi backplate and slightly larger bore in the tank to induce turbulence in the mixture.

As noted, lightened piston. Sadly, a bit too much. Carefully broken in ones don’t break.

Only 1100 produced. The later ones are fakes, as were the final Killer Bees.  R%%%%
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2018, 09:32:02 AM »
Frequently Faked cuz Cox had no serial number system outside 250+ Unique NEFF Medallions

Golden Bee's
Killer Bee's
Venom's....low production so assumes high $$$value...ironic in that is was a terrible engine out of the package
 Out side of collector desire to have pure "ONE OF EVERY POSSIBLE COX ENGINE" there is no good reason to spend what they want for a Venom especially since that are easy to fake...Think Rollrex

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 12:28:38 PM »
OK.

Now just what is a Killer Bee?

I am pretty much up on Babe Bees, Super Bees, Golden Bees and Black Widows.

The Super Bee was a Babe Bee with a 2-port cylinder.  When this became common knowledge there wasn't a single-port Golden Bee left anyplace I flew.
Paul Smith

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 04:35:36 PM »
    If you have that file with Paul Gilbeau (spelling? Sorry Paul!) modifications for a Black Widow for mouse racing, and appropriate parts, you can build an engine as good as or better than a Venom. When we had out Golden Age Races here at Buder park years ago, I had w venom on a profile Chester Goon racer. We had to use a Cox grey 5-3 prop and at that time we could still get Cox regular fuel. I forget my times and speeds, but they were not outstanding. There were a couple of other guys with hand worked engines that were faster. I had that sheet I mentioned and some tools with me, and sat down on the pavement and using what parts I got from my spares box, I hand built a Black widow in about an hour that was within a second or so of my Venom! I think the final ruin of product engines with the choke tubes had the correct cylinder on them and those can be used. The more you do to the little boogers, the shorter the life span. I know mine is a Venom because we ordered them at the hobby shop I worked part time at and we got two. I should have bought them both, but knowing what I know now, I'm glad I saved the $39.95 for other stuff back then!!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 06:56:42 PM »
                Paul, the Killer Bee as Larry mentioned utilizes the same lightweight crank. The portion near the conrod pin is cut away and the pin is center drilled as well. The Killer Bee case was a yellowish anodizing  like the Golden Bee. This engine was introduced in 1995.   Just like the Venom, it uses a stainless shim behind the drive washer which is also larger than a standard Black Widow. While it is a reed valved engine, it used the Davis style Teflon reed. I'm not certain that the Venom used this. The Killer Bee uses a external tank and not the integral Bee style.  The Killer Bee used a non screened horseshoe backplate which was offered in black for the .049 and red for the .051. Both of which had a larger venturi over a standard product backplate.  The .051 Killer Bee piston had two identifier grooves on the piston skirt unlike the TD which used one identifier groove. Both Killer Bee cylinders used the newer style slit type cylinders. The Killer Bee also utilized a tapered cylinder.  The Sure Start used two equally spaced slits, the Killer Bees lower slit was noticeably wider which not only is specific to the engine, it may also increase spi .The original Killer Bee also had a piece of yellow nyrod installed on a brass needle. I don't believe this needle thread to be the 128 TPI but I could be incorrect. The Killer Bee also used the 1702 high comp head and was delivered with 3 head gaskets.It offered rpm's in the 22k and above range. Ken
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:14:16 PM by kenneth cook »

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 05:04:24 AM »
Only 1100 produced. The later ones are fakes, as were the final Killer Bees.  R%%%%

Larry, I enjoyed your June 1996 Cox engines article in the Model Aviation magazine. You gave a very good explanation on the different types of intake porting, differences on the different models of Cox engines.

I gather here that you are referring to the Estes assembled ones. I heard about that, where they were fitting wrong non-performance parts. I'd be very unhappy if I got one of those.

Was always happy with the Cox engines I bought from the real Cox factory. Last one, a .049 R/C Bee, back in the late 1970's was a good one, very happy with it. Not high performance as the Widows and hopped up versions, but was stronger than the Babe Bee. Wore out the P/C, on its second set when I Figure-9'd my 36" Sterling Minnie Mambo R/C in the early 1980's. Since, haven't done much half-A flying although have over time collected used Cox engines.

New, since bought 2 .049 Sure Starts for $7 each from the Estes Cox surplus store in April 2008 before they shut their door.

To others, Paul Gibeault wrote an article titled, "The Revised 2011 Gibeault Mouse Race Program" that may be of interest. http://www.balsabeavers.com/information/articles/mouse_racing_2016.pdf

It explains basically how to create a high performance Cox reed valve mouse racing engine. (I think this describes rolling your own Killer Bee or Venom equivalent.)

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 01:32:49 PM »
To my knowledge, no stock Cox ever used a Teflon reed. The Killer Bee and Venom used stainless steel reeds. Frankly, I could never get the Teflon reeds to work.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 09:00:51 AM »
To my knowledge, no stock Cox ever used a Teflon reed. The Killer Bee and Venom used stainless steel reeds. Frankly, I could never get the Teflon reeds to work.

Larry, I'm certainly no expert on this. I found it interesting that Paul Gilbeaut came up with the same conclusion you did on Teflon reeds in his article from my link above. For mouse racing he found them unreliable. Also, I found it interesting that one can obtain Tee Dee like performance on a reedy, especially with the later designed reed housing using a plastic clip and mylar reeds versus the spring C-clip for the earlier metal reeds.

Thus I gather that these days, cobbling together one's own Killer Bee or Venom version is within grasp without breaking the bank, food for thought.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 01:14:05 PM »
I have owned a lot of all the various hot rod Cox engines as I grew up

all long gone from various Army moves

Bernie at Cox International actually does a good job of replicating them but never claims they are original COX item

Over several years now I have seen plenty of Killer Bee, Golden Bee, Venom, and NEFF Medallions that  are faked

As I said earlier, for some collector that MUST have one or more of EVERY engine and prototype...I would assume that collector is savvy enough to not get burned.....

BTW Bernie's HIS WAY copies are very well done...priced about right 

https://coxengines.ca/performance-engines/
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Please explain the Venom .049 ??
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2018, 03:51:25 PM »
I've bought things from Cox International, Bernie does a good job in shipping things promptly. I've also ordered from Matt at Ex Model Engines. He has counterparts also to the Killer Bee and Venom. Similarly to Bernie's engines being suffixed with "II" to indicate these are not original Cox, Matt calls his the "Black Lynx" and "Taipan Serpent". His QRC equivalent is called the "Harpy Eagle". I believe his Golden Bee equivalent is called the "Silver Stunter".

http://www.exmodelengines.com/home.php?cat=279

These may seem expensive, but in reality given our inflation (which is claimed to be low, but it is not), they are reasonably priced. So, from either shop, one cannot go wrong. ;D


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