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Author Topic: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED  (Read 10110 times)

Offline Chuck Matheny

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PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« on: January 26, 2023, 10:16:59 PM »
As Sgt Schultz used to say.... I KNOW NOTHING..!!...[especially not about the PAW .049]

I'd like to scratch build a plane capable of the C/L stunt pattern [well I haven't even run this engine yet so I have no idea if this is a ridiculous goal or not LL~]
I've got some experience building and flying "British Diesel Nostalgia" combat planes with PAW .15s..so I'm familiar with building my own soldered tin fuel tanks
I believe dope / silkspan is still considered a good way to go...but I also have 2 part epoxy and automotive urethane paint on hand. [some of it is 30 year old K&B epoxy that is still good]
AFAIK diesel fuel and iron on covering don't mix.
So...
How much .....
wing area and a RTF "do not exceed" target weight...?
Line length...[I'm a spiderline believer]
fuel tank size
prop
I have a 1/2 ounce plastic Visine Eye Drops bottle that might be usable for a tank. Could brass tube or tygon tubing  be pushed through tight fitting holes that have been made in the bottle.... without seepage...?

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2023, 02:48:09 AM »
       I've never ever had diesel fuel attack iron on covering. I use Monokote and Ultracote. My PAW .049 is currently on a Stork. The wingspan is 36" and about 215 sq". The PAW has no issues at all pulling this around on 42' lines. My kit isn't a Brodak version, it's the Golden State Model version which I know is heavier than the Brodak. Total weight of my model is 11.25 oz's. I use the PAW because it balances the plane with no additional nose weight. I finished with Brodak dope and no clear top coat. I've used water based poly from West Systems as well as dope and never had diesel fuel attack any finish I've ever used.

               The Stork for a 1/2A is quite large and the PAW has no problems flying the plane so I never experimented with larger. I see no reason at all why you couldn't fly a larger model using it.

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2023, 06:10:00 AM »
Thanks for your recommendations..!  H^^

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2023, 06:06:51 AM »
Hey Chuck,

   When I wrote the build article for
my FW-190D I made sure to include
all the numbers and dimensions so that
anyone building a 1/2A stunter would have
good starting reference.

  I did an awful lot of cross referencing
and testing when I designed this plane
and it paid off.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/focke-wulf-190d-stunter-build/

    I also did a post on making metal tanks.
You can see by the flight video that I get
decent engine runs with these tanks.
Run wasn't perfect in the video but
twiddling the TD's needle fixed it.
   I know it was a poorly flown pattern
but this was it's first full pattern and
I'm wearing my welly boots.
And other excuses  :-)

BTW, the tank was a stressed member
adding to engine mount rigidity.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/metal-tank-making/msg544888/#msg544888

 If I can help , just ask.

Cheers! - K.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 08:16:38 AM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2023, 12:26:17 PM »
Hey Chuck,

   When I wrote the build article for
my FW-190D I made sure to include
all the numbers and dimensions so that
anyone building a 1/2A stunter would have
good starting reference.

  I did an awful lot of cross referencing
and testing when I designed this plane
and it paid off.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/focke-wulf-190d-stunter-build/

    I also did a post on making metal tanks.
You can see by the flight video that I get
decent engine runs with these tanks.
Run wasn't perfect in the video but
twiddling the TD's needle fixed it.
   I know it was a poorly flown pattern
but this was it's first full pattern and
I'm wearing my welly boots.
And other excuses  :-)

BTW, the tank was a stressed member
adding to engine mount rigidity.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/metal-tank-making/msg544888/#msg544888

 If I can help , just ask.

Cheers! - K.
Thanks very much for the excellent documentary of your FW190.
I have kept the links [to your work] for quick reference..!

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2023, 04:30:24 AM »
You're welcome Chuck.

  Just a few thoughts.

  Larry Renger suggested that
12 oz is a good target weight for
a 1/2A. He would know.

  I like silkspan but it just isn't
as wear resistant as the polyspan
I used on the FW-190.
  A really open wing structure gets
a lot of strength from the covering.

It's all fun to think about.   y1

Cheers! - K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2023, 09:50:17 AM »
Actually 10oz is about right, 12oz would be the maximum. 🤠
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2023, 11:45:11 AM »
Ooops!

Sorry I put words in your mouth Larry. n1
I should have checked your previous
posts.

-K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2023, 12:41:38 PM »
Years ago I built an engine test stand to measure the vertical dead lift capability of various 1/2A engines with various props.
The engine was screwed to a sliding platform that was stationed on a pair of steel wire uprights. The platform most likely had brass tubes or ny-rods to reduce friction.
Below the engine platform was a shelf where 1/2" lug nuts [weighing 1/2 oz each] were placed to add to the "payload".
This idea worked pretty well..except with the AP .061... the crankcase wore out within minutes of being run vertically

I also built a few "1/2A PIZZA BOX FLYERS" out of 1/4" balsa sticks and cellophane covering equipped with the lightest RC flight control possible. [I even used carpet thread "pull / pull" for the elevons]
So anyway...
I found that from both the test stand and in flight testing that...
a low performance reedie can hover about 9 or 10 ounces
a high perf reedie or TD can hover about 12 or 13 ounces
a Norvel AME 061 produced about 18 ounces
a  Fora .049 was able to "bench press" over 20 ounces......

Here is an example of a test session....
1/2A THRUST-O-METER !!!
Gather 'round the thrust-o-meter, gang, it's time to see what we can get from a AP .061. All runs were done with a brand new engine with 15% nitro. I want to come up with the most thrustworthy combo for an upcoming 3D project. I figure that the 6x2 is probably going to be the best prop, but maybe a 7x2 or 6.5x2 could be even better. A guy gave me a couple of hand carved 7x2 props with huge wide blades that I ran on a dieselized .061 a couple of years ago, and they worked much better than they looked. The were cartoonish looking. I took one of them and made a APC clone as best I could. The results as you can see here were disappointing, I even ended up cutting it all the way back down to a 6x2 just to compare it with the APC 6x2 and it wasn't even close. It will take closer examination to see what the difference is. Here is what I found so far:
AP.061
6x2 APC 20,600 17.6 ozs
5.5x2 APC 22,700 16 ozs
6x3 REV UP wood 17,300 16 ozs
6x3 MAS 15,300 16 ozs
5.7x3 APC 18,600 14.6 ozs
5x3 COX 19,800 14 ozs
5x3 FG [Driskill] 24,000 12.8 ozs
7x2 wood 15,600 11.6 ozs
6.5x2 wood 16,200 12.0 ozs
6x2 wood 22,500 12.2 ozs [blades were re contoured real thin]


Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2023, 01:19:57 PM »
Oooops..looks like I misremembered what the TD .049 output was 19 years ago....below are my findings that were posted at another 1/2A Forum.

"I picked up a stock TD from an RCU auction, and thought it would be interesting to see how much it could "bench press" with different props. I used 30% fuel, and a NELSON head. This engine didn't need a breakin by me, the original user did a nice job. For the test it was run on bladder. It was too dark to get tach readings, but I would say it sounded like a 21-22K engine with the 5-3 prop."

PROP THRUST OZS. COMMENTS

COX 5-3 14.4 wide needle

COX 6-3 16.6 that equals the weight of the gondola & nineteen 1/2" nuts.

COX 6-4 16.6 might as well run a 6-3, this one runs hot

FG 4.5-2.5 10.6 Great prop [fiberglass] for CL combat

APC 5.7-3 17.4 WOW!

APC 5.5-2 16.2 had to open the needle for this one, easy to needle, cool run

GRISH 5-3 13.8 good prop for weak engines

GRISH 5.5-4 15.0 never had any use for this one, needs to be cut down

GRISH 4.5-4 14.4 OOPS! see above comment

WOOD 7-2 14.4 had to close needle way down which means this prop is an overload.

I think it would be interesting now to slap on a diesel head and go through this again with some larger props..
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 09:09:15 PM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2023, 12:02:32 AM »
Thanks Chuck.

  This is good, solid data !

Even allowing for variables in the tests,
this is an excellent guide of where to start.

"Too dark to read the tach"?
Your neighbors trying to sleep through the tests.   <=

Cheers! - K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2023, 02:21:35 AM »
Thanks Chuck.

  This is good, solid data !

Even allowing for variables in the tests,
this is an excellent guide of where to start.

"Too dark to read the tach"?
Your neighbors trying to sleep through the tests.   <=

Cheers! - K.

So your FW 190 is about 2 to 1 power to weight...?
Some of the run data  you see posted might have been after I played with head shims after a disappointing run or a run that "didn't make sense"....to get the best rpm.


I live in a loud and rowdy neighborhood..... H^^
One neighbor shoots moles with a 12 gauge. Not as a hobby...just a shooting spree every now and then.
Another neighbor has dirt bikes and a pretty nice track that circles around his 2 hole golf course.
Another neighbor has connections with "The Tribe" and puts on a massive fireworks display a couple times every year.
 

I have a 200 x 200 clearing on my wooded lot and have flown Fox .36 Fast Combat models there. ..but it's kind of claustrophobic being surrounded with so many 100 foot tall trees so close to the circle.

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2023, 02:49:07 AM »
Here's another post from 19 years ago.......

RE: 1/2A THRUST-O-METER
 
HEY KIDS!
GUESS WHAT TIME IT IS?........ IT'S THRUST-O-METER TIME!
Todays competitor in the power lifting event is the NORVEL AME .061! This is the one that was in my 1/2A contest plane. I adjusted it for best compression with 30% fuel, ran it on bladder and here's what it did...

PROP RPM THRUST OZS

COX 5-3 21200 17.6

MAS 6-3 17900 20.0

MAS 5.5-4 22700 18.2

MAS 6-4 17600 19.2

ZINGALI 6-3 17900 14.8 OINK!

APC 5.7-3 21200 19.2

APC 5.5-2 24000 18.2

GRISH 5-3 24000 16.0

GRISH 5.5-4 17600 17.0

GRISH 4.5-4 21800 17.0

OPEN EXHAUST RESULTS BELOW

MAS 6-3 18800 23.0

MAS 6-4 18500 22.4

APC 5.7-3 22600 22.4

APC 5.5-2 25600 22.2

GRISH 4.5-4 22500 17.6

I don't have a COX 6 x3 but the  MAS 6 x 3 is a pretty close copy. The increase in power with open exhaust is pretty huge!

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2023, 09:15:36 AM »
Last night I transferred the layout dimensions of Goozgogs FW 190 D9 to some drawing paper...
then I went shopping through a really nice book of WWII planes for a simple one to use as a subject to model.
So here we have the RUMANIAN  IAR 80.... [Industry Aeronautical Rumania] which was their only fighter that saw action.
They built 50 of this type
wingspan 32 feet
length 27 feet
max speed 316 mph
6 machine guns no bomb payload listed..but they eventually built a  fighter bomber version designated IAR 81

After doing this sketch it looks like the canopy should be moved forward an inch and probably the wing moves forward an inch too.
The PAW .049 is heavier than the Cox TD

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2023, 10:50:08 AM »
Hey Chuck,

  The IAR 80 looks like a perfect subject to me.
The FW-190D has inconvenient shapes and angles
for easy balsa molding. ( if that's what you're considering)

  If you look at my FormFlite Thunderbolt post you
can see why the symmetrical and simple shape of the
P-47 is so much more desirable.
It would also allow you to finish the fuselage on the
plug where it would make sanding and polishing easier.

  If you like, I could organize a PDF file of the FW-190wing ribs
Or, if you want to, post the dimensions of tip and root foils
you need and I'll generate them in the computer.

  Interesting project Chuck.

Cheers! - K

(added later). The FW-190D is very sensitive to control inputs.
I think more nose weight would make it less twitchy.
Your PAW .049 weight might work well with the FW-190's
moments. 
Just a thought. -K.

 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 11:58:49 AM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2023, 02:50:18 PM »
Hey Chuck,

  The IAR 80 looks like a perfect subject to me.
The FW-190D has inconvenient shapes and angles
for easy balsa molding. ( if that's what you're considering)

  If you look at my FormFlite Thunderbolt post you
can see why the symmetrical and simple shape of the
P-47 is so much more desirable.
It would also allow you to finish the fuselage on the
plug where it would make sanding and polishing easier.

  If you like, I could organize a PDF file of the FW-190wing ribs
Or, if you want to, post the dimensions of tip and root foils
you need and I'll generate them in the computer.

  Interesting project Chuck.

Cheers! - K

(added later). The FW-190D is very sensitive to control inputs.
I think more nose weight would make it less twitchy.
Your PAW .049 weight might work well with the FW-190's
moments. 
Just a thought. -K.

 

NO....ACTUALLY....THE FW190 WAS THE PERFECT SUBJECT BUT GOOZGOG ALREADY CLAIMED IT.... n1

Seriously..your FW 190 would be such a hard act to follow [to put on display here] ....
and so  I needed to find a plane that might work if I transfer your basic layout to it
What's advantageous about the RUMIANIAN IAR 80 for a plane to model is that nobody has ever heard of it [except for the most extreme "GEEK LEVEL"  warbird historians]..so nobody is going to come up to me and point out 99 inaccuracies. LL~

I am tempted to make the fuselage form in 2 or 3 lengthwise pieces so that the balsa skin seams can be glued together while bound to the form.
After doing the gluing of the balsa skins while still on the form  a thin lengthwise layer of the form is pulled out first..then the 2 outer halves of the form would be pretty loose and easy to pull out. Cover the areas where gluing is going to be done with clear plastic tape as a "release agent".
The fuselage form sure would be easy to make if I had a fully equipped machine shop.
What is the diameter of the front end of your FW190 fuselage...?
I like the sinister look of the long nose...rearward wing loaction...[5.5" from the prop driver face to LE]..so I'll go with that.
Worse case, the cylindrical fuselage can be shortened up front if the CG is a problem
The PAW 80, prop and Visine bottle fuel tank weigh 3.5 ounces.... :(
Is 20% CG considered an OK place to start...?
You mentioned using a carbon rod for the wing's  TE. How did you hinge your flaps...?
How did the outboard flap end up 17% larger than the inboard...?
OK....that's 4 questions in one post ...thanks for your interest and your support....!  H^^
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 03:15:05 PM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2023, 04:08:32 AM »
G'morning Chuck.

  Sorry I'm telling you what I'm sure you know but
I'm writing this for everyone. Please don't be offended
if it seems too obvious.

  The firewall diameter is;

On the plug   - 1.4375 " ( 1-7/16")

On the plane - 1.625 "    ( 1-5/8" )

  A radial engine design with a circular firewall
is not required for a molded balsa fuselage but
it does make things easier.

BTW .... Miles M20 / Blackburn Firebrand / Ryan fireball.

   I don't think you need to worry too much
about releasing the balsa shells from the plug.
  I rub the raw wood with a paraffin candle, then
melt it in with a hot air gun.
I haven't had any problems.
  I put the half shells together on the plug ,
overlapping the raw edges, then cut through both.
It gives a tight seam that I tack together with CyA.
This way it stays straight.

  I don't have fancy shop tools. I do have a table saw
and little band saw, drill press and belt sander.
  I carve plugs from Home Depot pine or spruce using
a tiny Stanley hobby plane and LOTS of pencil lines.

  The Focke-Wulf has 0-0-0 incidence angles set to
a datum line that I establish when I'm carving a plug.
  Fun Fact; the seam running down the side of a real
Spitfire is the datum line.

  FLAPS! ?  Lots of opinions about whether a 1/2A
Stunter needs flaps. They add a huge amount of
work to a build.
  I used flaps since my intention was to design a
full blown 1/2A precision aerobatics plane.
I'm glad I did but that's just my opinion.
  The outer flap has 17% more area for all the reasons
that full size CLPA does.  Mostly it's to counteract
yawing and hinging caused by line pull.
  Seriously, the landing gear drag probably affects
the plane more than the flaps. Outside turns  are
naturally tighter than inside turns.

Cheers! K.

Adventures in balsa molding.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-spitfire-replica-build-flight-video/msg380034/#msg380034

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/top-flight-form-flight-thunderbolt-18'/


Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2023, 02:19:09 PM »
Thanks for giving me a  look at your Spifire and P-47..!
I'll look into getting a Rapidograph Pen to make those bold hinge lines
Good point about the actual girth of the fuselage being 1/8" more than the form diameter. I have an old wood baseball bat with a 2.25" dia barrel..but would like to reduce it to 2".
I've never built an assymetric winged model [not on purpose] although I've known of their "purposeful" existence.
All this time I thought the rule of thumb was  less span for the outboard panel.....so when I look at your FW 190 I don't see where the EXTRA 17% OUTBOARD FLAP AREA is coming from...?
also....
What diameter carbon rod did you use for the FW190s trailing edge...?
Without having a hobby shop handy for me to "size up" certain building materials in my hands..it's hard for me to guess what will work best when it comes to materials I'm not familiar with.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 07:16:34 PM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2023, 05:59:39 AM »
G'morning Chuck,

In the FW-190D article, Post #8,  I wrote;

  "  I was planning on using Carbon fiber rod
for the trailing edge but I did a test and, believe
it or not, the built up balsa box spar T.E. is lighter
and stiffer."

  I did a lot of testing for this design and was
surprised when the balsa T.E box spar proved
stiffer and lighter than 1/8" x 1/8" CF T.E. from
a salvaged combat plane.

  Yup. Outboard flap bigger. I forget where 17%
number came from but it isn't arbitrary.

  I hear you when it's about material availability.
I mostly use 1/16" balsa sheet. It's available and
strong when covered with silkspan.

  The baseball bat mold made me smile. 
Nothing wrong with the shape but it's made of
Ash and that's a very hard wood to work with.
  I'm encouraging you to carve a plug from
soft wood like pine or spruce.. It isn't difficult and
you'll get exactly what you want.

 In 1981 I shaved a broken and rotten 40' wood
boat mast down from 8" diameter down to 4".
I was on a beach near Georgetown Great Exuma
Bahamas. All I had was a hand saw, a plane,
a machete  and some string.
It took me a whole week working under a palm tree.

  I used the ancient technique of progressively
shaving the cross section of the mast from
square to octagon to 16 sided , then planing it round.
  I used the string and a pencil to keep it straight.
It worked out pretty well.
The same technique is a good way to get your plug
round and straight.

  I'm posting some drawings of the FW-190D wing.
If you like, I could organize 8-1/2" x 11" files that
you could tape together and work from.
That would take a whole morning so , unless you're going
to use them, please don't let me do it.  :-)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 06:19:48 AM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2023, 11:52:47 AM »
G'morning Chuck,

In the FW-190D article, Post #8,  I wrote;

  "  I was planning on using Carbon fiber rod
for the trailing edge but I did a test and, believe
it or not, the built up balsa box spar T.E. is lighter
and stiffer."

  I did a lot of testing for this design and was
surprised when the balsa T.E box spar proved
stiffer and lighter than 1/8" x 1/8" CF T.E. from
a salvaged combat plane.

  Yup. Outboard flap bigger. I forget where 17%
number came from but it isn't arbitrary.

  I hear you when it's about material availability.
I mostly use 1/16" balsa sheet. It's available and
strong when covered with silkspan.

  The baseball bat mold made me smile. 
Nothing wrong with the shape but it's made of
Ash and that's a very hard wood to work with.
  I'm encouraging you to carve a plug from
soft wood like pine or spruce.. It isn't difficult and
you'll get exactly what you want.

 In 1981 I shaved a broken and rotten 40' wood
boat mast down from 8" diameter down to 4".
I was on a beach near Georgetown Great Exuma
Bahamas. All I had was a hand saw, a plane,
a machete  and some string.
It took me a whole week working under a palm tree.

  I used the ancient technique of progressively
shaving the cross section of the mast from
square to octagon to 16 sided , then planing it round.
  I used the string and a pencil to keep it straight.
It worked out pretty well.
The same technique is a good way to get your plug
round and straight.

  I'm posting some drawings of the FW-190D wing.
If you like, I could organize 8-1/2" x 11" files that
you could tape together and work from.
That would take a whole morning so , unless you're going
to use them, please don't let me do it.  :-)

Thanks again for the info..!
I can copy the rib outlines you posted and take it from there....thanks for sharing them..

So....I guess  the outboard flap on the FW 190 goes full span and the inboard flap is active for 83% of the span...and the remainder is stationary?

I got lucky and found a way for my Harbor Freight metal lathe to hold the bat long enough for me to shave it down a little.

In the aft end I'll use a table saw to carve it to a point at the rudder line, then either plane or disk sand it to blend it to the forward section that is perfectly round.
I plan on carving the wing saddle and horizontal stab platform into the form...using my drill press as a "mill".

 

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2023, 02:23:17 AM »
G'morning Chuck,

  I am envious of your machine lathe.  Nice!
 

  If you look at the ribs you can see the slots
that mesh with slots in the main spar, just like
a Nobler. The rigidity of the wing comes mostly
from the D tube leading edge.

  Both flaps extend out to the tips. The photos
show how it is. The outboard flap is wider across
the entire length.

  A mistake I made with the P-47 was notching the
form for the stabilizer before I molded the balsa.
I had to patch the notch and start over.
 When I cut out the places for wing and stab
I measured from the datum line.

Cheers! - K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2023, 07:53:33 AM »
G'morning Chuck,

  I am envious of your machine lathe.  Nice!
 

  If you look at the ribs you can see the slots
that mesh with slots in the main spar, just like
a Nobler. The rigidity of the wing comes mostly
from the D tube leading edge.

  Both flaps extend out to the tips. The photos
show how it is. The outboard flap is wider across
the entire length.


  A mistake I made with the P-47 was notching the
form for the stabilizer before I molded the balsa.
I had to patch the notch and start over.

 When I cut out the places for wing and stab
I measured from the datum line.

Cheers! - K.

OK....very clever...!
The outboard flap has 17% more chord and I wasn't able to see that.

I remember you mentioned how notching the stab platform was a mistake but I guess I am determined to find out for myself why that is.

I can't pass up the chance to notch the stab platform while I have the form mounted perfectly square and true on it's "holding fixture"

I made a rough cutout [a slightly oversize cutout] for the wing saddle.
Next step is to build the wing...then use the finished wing and some bondo to "pot" the exact shape of the wing's upper surface into the fuselage mold.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2023, 05:15:30 PM »
Save the cutouts from your male molds. Then put layers of masking tape down the center of the cutoff piece until you build up exactly the amount of the saw kerf to reinstall the piece flush. A couple of flathead screws will hold everything in position. This allows you to mold the balsa without the defects that will inevitably occur from the unsupported area. You can slice the cutouts in your balsa piece in-situ using the edge of your mold cutout if you made it accurately and smooth enough. The just run your xacto thru the balsa and glide along the kerf--which is one reason you only put the shim tape down the middle.

Of course, lots of ways to skin the (Bear)cat---or Thunderbolt, or....

D

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2023, 07:26:47 AM »
Save the cutouts from your male molds.
Of course, lots of ways to skin the (Bear)cat---or Thunderbolt, or....

D

Dave I was thinking the same thing.
Problem with the cutout for the wing saddle is it is in a million pieces....!
While thinking some more about my plan of attack with final assembly I definitely want access to the bellcrank and the flap linkage.
Access to the fuel tank would be nice too.
Hard to execute these fancy ideas without gaining weight..or weakening the model.
Access to the flap / elevator linkage could be via a removable cockpit canopy and access to the fuel tank via a removable plywood firewall

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2023, 09:27:27 PM »
Some  progress to report...

The first wing ended up weighing 4 ounces.
I used 2-56 hardware for the linkage pieces
3/16" thick flaps
1/8" thick main spar
"siamesed credit card" bellcrank with aluminum bushings and 1/8" diameter aluminum axle
Provision for adjustable leadouts

Good looking wing...just heavier than I want for .049 power.
The 1/16" thick molded balsa leading edge was very easy...using about a 10 minute soak in the bath tub before wrapping around the form.

Wing #2...
1/8" Aluminum tube flap linkage...but I am still using 2-56 steel wire to connect the bellcrank to the flap horns.
1/16" thick balsa main spar with a 1/16" thick doubler for the inner 8 inches of wing span.
So far this wing weighs 2 3/8 ounces but it doesn't have the round wing tips.
I think I will do without the wing tips  to save weight.

What I learned.....
I don't think you can get much lighter than 1/8" aluminum tubing for control linkage. I found what looks like a #1 machine screw to act as my main "hitch pin" for the flap / elevator linkage.
Take the time to pick the most bendable 1/16" balsa in your stash to do the molded technique with and do not try to use the molded pieces until all of the stress has been heat soaked and molded out of them.
I fought with some splitting and warping with wing #2 leading edge sheeting thanks to not taking my own advice.
The Siamesed Credit Card bellcrank seems plenty strong and of course very light. One of the cards had a clear plastic film that you want to remove BEFORE the work is started.
I am still looking for EZ HINGES....might have to go with sewn hinges after the tissue work is done...?

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2023, 11:43:57 PM »
Chuck,

You could consider drafting mylar to replace the EZ Hinges for a 1/2A.  I have tested some of the thinnest mylar and found it worked well. They make it with one side rough so that you can draw on it. The other side is smooth and shiny--so I scuffed both sides with some fine sandpaper. There is nearly zero spring force to it, so no gnashing and wailing about stiff hinges is needed. (You will have to put up with every guy born since 1953 telling you that it won't work for control line though, just for R/C....)

Or, using Spectra for a few sewn hinges works fine, too.

Dave

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2023, 11:55:37 PM »
Chuck,

You could consider drafting mylar to replace the EZ Hinges for a 1/2A.  I have tested some of the thinnest mylar and found it worked well. They make it with one side rough so that you can draw on it. The other side is smooth and shiny--so I scuffed both sides with some fine sandpaper. There is nearly zero spring force to it, so no gnashing and wailing about stiff hinges is needed. (You will have to put up with every guy born since 1953 telling you that it won't work for control line though, just for R/C....)

Or, using Spectra for a few sewn hinges works fine, too.

Dave

Thanks Dave...I'll look into getting some mylar. Just to be safe I am in the habit of pinning that type of hinge with toothpicks. If a dollars worth of mylar ends up being a lifetime supply...I'll never forgive myself for spending $5000 on DuBro EZ Hinges over the years...... H^^

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2023, 11:06:26 PM »
Here's a little progress and a little damage control.
I accidentally hit the original bellcrank with a drop of super glue...making it useless.
After a short temper tantrum I made a new one outta .060" aluminum...because it's what I had laying around. It pivots on a 1/8" diameter aluminum rod axle.
The molded 1/16" balsa fuselage was very easy to make. I lined the interior with a 2nd layer of 1/16" balsa from stem to stern.
The firewall is [so far 1/16" plywood backed with 1/4" balsa.
The fuselage weighs 1 ounce...but I'll add another layer of 1/16" plywood to the firewall where the plastic engine mount gets attached with #2 sheetmetal screws.
 

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2023, 11:09:41 PM »
Here's the fuselage....

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2023, 05:51:12 PM »
Today was Engine Test Lab Day at the Rumanian Fighter Plane Factory.
I love it when old stuff still works.
The engine is brand new but the fuel is 20 year old Dr Diesel 1/2A Blend.
I assumed that it was 0% ether after sitting in a wood shed for 20 years so I added  John Deere starting fluid  to the mix.
I soldered up the fuel tank last night out of .005" brass sheet and used 1/8" brass tubing for the plumbing. The tank might be extremely ugly but it works.
Oh yeah...ye olde Weller soldering gun had it's tip go bad so I used a 7 inch long hunk of #10 copper wire to serve as a replacement element.
The old solder was corroded so I wiped the corrosion off with fine sandpaper before using it.
That damn tygon tubing is some really grabby stuff..once you slip it over the brass spray bar nipple  it does not want to come back off..[and it is properly sized here]
If memory serves correctly I think I used to use black neoprene for diesel ...?
I'm going to end up breaking this plane just trying to get the tygon tubing pulled off the engine during fueling.


The little engine ran nice and steady [and cool] with a 6.3 x 4 APC at 10,900 and the 1 oz tank ran forever. I used this prop for break in because it's a beefy prop that would survive  the abuse of the first clumsy test session. Now that the engine is dialed in I'll try it with an actual 1/2A prop like a Cox 6 x 3 and see if it will hand start..
Here's a photo  of my very sophisticated   Rumanian Fighter Dyno Facility / Propulsion Laboratory.....

« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 06:34:40 PM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2023, 05:22:11 AM »
Diesels like big props. At least a 6x4.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2023, 08:26:19 AM »
Diesels like big props. At least a 6x4.

Larry....what do you  use for fuel line...? This yellow 1/8" tygon isn't very easy to pull off the spray bar.

also..the needle has a split collet that I needed to pinch all the way in order to keep the needle from free wheeling while the engine is running. I think it should be a wee bit tighter..but the collet can't be pinched any tighter than it is...[without me getting reckless]
I wonder what the PAW Gurus do as a remedy..?

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2023, 12:53:49 AM »
another Saturday at the Rumanian Fighter Plane factory comes and goes.
We were out of Rumanian fighter canopies..so we used this  canopy from a downed Bulgarian Fighter.
At this point the CG is at 14% and the plane weighs 9 ozs.
It still needs an elevator push rod, a cowl, some spackle, dope, silkspan and however many pennies glued here and there  to make it flyable. If it's goig to need a ridiculous amount of weight added to the tail to move the CG back to something in the low 20s..then maybe the engine needs to move back. I wont worry about it until after the plane is closer to being done.
I'm leaving the rounded wing tips off for now until I establish the leadout position.
Speaking of leadouts I received a package of double flared eyelets from a C/L supplier and the eyelets looked way too wide. A little voice told me to terminate the leadouts with them anyway and then crush them flat in a smooth jawed vise.
this works perfectly.
The downside is there's no way to recycle these eyelets to another plane once they've been crushed as nicely as I did them... H^^
« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 09:38:20 AM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2023, 12:56:42 AM »
and this is the other end

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2023, 06:06:59 AM »
Been a while for me, but I recall using Neoprene tubing.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2023, 12:55:53 PM »
Been a while for me, but I recall using Neoprene tubing.
Thanks Larry.....I'd like to find the most user friendly tubing that will make refueling with a cowl [in the way of performing this task].....easier.

Speaking of cowls...here is one that we made out of a very exotic material known as Alclad Aluminum...because at the Rumanian Fighter Plane Factory we spare no expense....ever..!!


Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2023, 12:49:36 PM »
Looking great Chuck !
I'm really enjoying this build.

  On little airplanes I use the full size
Dubro hinges but  I cut them down
to size with scissors.

Cheers! - K.

Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2023, 01:09:17 PM »
Looking great Chuck !
I'm really enjoying this build.

  On little airplanes I use the full size
Dubro hinges but  I cut them down
to size with scissors.

Cheers! - K.

Thanks for all of your support K..!
Looking back on the build so far I wish I had medium weight balsa instead of "contest grade" for the sheeting and other parts. This contest grade wood [mail ordered from SIG] has almost no strength...especially in the thicknesses under 1/4".
I've got the type of giant scale plastic hinge that has it's own copper cotter pin and I did consider cutting them down out of desperation.
But the due date promised by Motion RC for the CA hinges and other stuff is March 2.
I ordered a bunch of acrylic paints from them also.
Tower used to be my GO TO place...but it seems they went to sht during the time I spent away from the hobby. [I feel personally responsible... evidently it was the loss of my business for those couple years that caused their business to fail].... H^^
They had such a sterling reputation and decent sales help over the phone.
I actually loved it when the Tower Operator would remind me of bulk specials that I missed that were  better values.
Those were the days.


Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2023, 04:56:33 AM »
Hey Chuck,

  Yes. I liked Tower too. back when
I had gone over to the dark side and
was flying RC.
The shame of it!

  Sparky has done some posts showing
how he makes hinges. I've tugged on
the lead outs and they are extra smooth.

  I use my medium quality 1/16" balsa
for molding over a form. I weigh each sheet
and save the prime stuff for , I don't know
what.
  With full size stunters I clad the balsa with
very light glass cloth and epoxy but for
little planes I rely on medium weight
Silkspan and dope to act as a stressed skin.
It really stiffens things.
  Something to consider is fortifying high
risk areas by soaking them with thin Cya.
Wing roots and stabilizer mounts etc.

Cheers! - K.


 
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2023, 11:25:32 AM »
Hey Chuck,

  Yes. I liked Tower too. back when
I had gone over to the dark side and
was flying RC.
The shame of it!

  Sparky has done some posts showing
how he makes hinges. I've tugged on
the lead outs and they are extra smooth.

 I rely on medium weight
Silkspan and dope to act as a stressed skin.

It really stiffens things.
  Something to consider is fortifying high
risk areas by soaking them with thin Cya.
Wing roots and stabilizer mounts etc.

Cheers! - K.

Your reply is very timely because I was wondering about adding some strength to mainly the aft end of the fuselage.
I have already put a layer of 1/2 oz cloth inside the nose of the plane all the way back to the wing saddle. I did it with West System epoxy.  I rationed the batch of epoxy to 1/2 a teaspoon's worth which was just enough.
The fuel tank area is nice and fuel proof and somewhat stronger.
The PAW engine is making this plane nose heavy..so might as well add structural weight to the "wasp-like" aft end of the fuselage instead of dead weight.
[I've already lengthened the aft fuselage by about 2 inches bc of the CG issue].
I have medium silk span and dope and wondered if 2 layers of tissue over the fuselage is something that has ever been done if 1 layer doesn't seem like it's enough...?H^^



 

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2023, 11:41:44 AM »
    Way back in the day..
the Free Flight guys would
double cover very open wing
structures.
i tried it once and got ugly bubbles.

  If one layer of medium weight
Silkspan doesn't do it, then easy
enough to add another one.
  I'm betting that one layer,
applied damp and doped through
with thinned nitrate will be enough.

  BTW Chuck, your PAW diesel
is exciting. Looking at it, I can
smell the ether!

Cheers! - K.
 
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2023, 02:57:40 PM »
    Way back in the day..
the Free Flight guys would
double cover very open wing
structures.
i tried it once and got ugly bubbles.

  If one layer of medium weight
Silkspan doesn't do it, then easy
enough to add another one.
  I'm betting that one layer,
applied damp and doped through
with thinned nitrate will be enough.

  BTW Chuck, your PAW diesel
is exciting. Looking at it, I can
smell the ether!

Cheers! - K.
 

Hmmmm....my experience with bubbles and "solvent pops" in paint jobs have a common explanation. Not enough time was allow for all of the solvents in the prior coat to "GAS OFF"...before the next coat ends up trapping the gasses that are still trying to escape.
I dimly recall reading some of the Free Flight articles and maybe even the C/L Stunt articles of Model Aviation Magazine and recall message traffic about waiting A MONTH between application of coats of dope...!!!
I find that pretty extreme..but try to imagine the investment that the top C/L Builders have in a winter project and I can understand the paranoia.
Look what just showed up from Motion RC today, the hinges and other stuff.
I can now continue with the model instead of building the cabinets that are needed for a rental property. LL~

I can only hope that the PAW can pull it's own weight as well as your TD 6 x 3 @ 15500.
A very slight advantage is I could use a smaller fuel tank and go with model designs that have less spacw between the firewall and the wing.
I plan on building another Rumanian IAR 80 that is more scalelike after I see this plane fly and am able to evaluate it.
I also need to build a dedicated work table for model building that is flat and true. I can't trust my eyes enough to build "by eye" any more...everything needs to be jigged to FOOL PROOF STATUS now.

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2023, 10:15:34 AM »
The IAR 80
Got a new fin / rudder ...what I originally tried to pass off didn't look enough like the Real McCoy. This one is more like it.
The MOMENT OF TRUTH was doing the elevator / flap linkage.
I'm a little bit nervous about the push rod.
It starts out as 1/8" aluminum tube at the flap horn junction...then telescopes down to 3/32" tubing for a couple  inches, then down to 1/16" tubing for a couple inches, then down to 1/16" solid aluminum wire for the last 5 inches [including overlap.
All sections were scuffed up and glued together with medium CA.
The completed assembly survived my rigorous and vigorous Pull Test and it seems stiff enough.
This plane is configured PUSH FOR UP...and since it is Control Line Stunt there is no such thing as "UP"..so I might as well stop fretting about it and just GO WITH IT.
As you can tell from the photos..I've got about 500 hours of fine sanding and finish work left to do.
The plane hangs nicely from where I've got the leadouts positioned..but I still want to fly it before installing the rounded wing tips.
I want to see for myself how critical the positioning is on a mildly breezy day.

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2023, 06:48:20 PM »
Finally....
covered with SIG medium silkspan ..SIG nitrate dope
some flaws in the tissue job were addressed with the help of Minwax stainable wood putty, my index finger, more dope and numerous slits made with the #11 blade to make the loose tissue submit to my will...especially in the concave areas.
The OD Green and brown are Tamiya Acrylic....[lacquer...?]
I know you are all in awe of how artistically the camo motif was executed..it's a gift I guess.... H^^
I don't know how wise it was to do this .....but instead of using Tamiya thinner at $500 / gallon I used 91% Isopropyl alcohol as a thinner
I have Brodak Butyrate Clear on order along with "flat" butyrate dope thinner
Rumanian IAR 80 Fighter decals are available in 1/72 scale.
I might try my hand at making my own 6 TIMES LARGER insignias to dope onto the plane before I hit it with fuel proof dope....
but
What would be the best material to make a DIY DECAL out of..then maybe apply with dope  to the top side of the wing panels...?

I plan on many bumps and bruises for this plane while I try to learn to fly a recognizable pattern and DO plan on building another IAR 80 once I get a chance to wring this one out.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 04:52:04 AM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2023, 09:23:52 PM »
At this point it needs a coat of fuel proof dope...a couple insignias, a better looking cowl and a better looking canopy.
I should try to find a beer can that looks more "Army Issue" .
There is actually a malt liquor called "CAMO"....
a now defunct brand called "SCHMIDT" had a "limited release" camoflage design on their cans IIRC .

The plane weighs 10.5 ounces, more like 11 ozs with a future coat of fuel proofer and a few pennies for wingtip weight.
I have no idea how well 13,000 rpm with a 6.3 x 4 prop can fly 11 ozs worth of plane......the whole idea is to be  able to fly the Stunt Pattern from a swiveling Lazyboy recliner and with a drink in my free hand..

« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 11:59:35 AM by Chuck Matheny »

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2023, 04:55:38 PM »
Looking good to me Chuck !

  I think 12oz might be OK.
It depends on the wind and your skills.

  Something that I experienced with the
FW-190 was that the grey on grey
I sprayed on looked like a muddy nothing
until I added the crosses. Then my brain
could understand it and it looked good.
You might have the same situation after
you install the insignias.

  I don't mind the beer can cowl if you
can keep it attached. Some paint would help.  #^

I might be enjoying this build as much as you are .

Cheers! - K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2023, 10:20:46 PM »
Looking good to me Chuck !

  I think 12oz might be OK.
It depends on the wind and your skills.

  Something that I experienced with the
FW-190 was that the grey on grey
I sprayed on looked like a muddy nothing
until I added the crosses. Then my brain
could understand it and it looked good.
You might have the same situation after
you install the insignias.

  I don't mind the beer can cowl if you
can keep it attached. Some paint would help.  #^

I might be enjoying this build as much as you are .

Cheers! - K.

Thanks again for your interest and advice.
What surprised me was how bad the silkspan looked during the doping process..but after a day or two of drying it would tighten back up and the flaws weren't too difficult to touch up.
Gotta find me some of that Polyspan though...!

 

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2023, 11:47:55 AM »
Here she is almost ready to go at 11.5 ozs.
I am going to make a bullet shaped "Heavy Hub" in place of the stock prop nut because the CG ended up a little bit too "sporty" I think.
The emblems came straight off our little printer onto regular typing paper. I expected the butyrate dope to attack the ink but it didn't.
I found that painting the back side of the emblems with dope, then letting it dry, then painting the spot where the emblems will be applied worked OK.
 

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2023, 11:51:24 AM »
IAR 80 RTF
We'll  see what 13,000 with a 6.3 x 4 prop looks like on 40 foot lines pretty soon.

Offline goozgog

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Re: PAW .049 STUNTER GUIDANCE URGENTLY REQUIRED
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2023, 05:10:06 AM »
and that's our three cents worth.   <=
Keith Morgan


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